Hallahan

There should be a money/science career mode

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Posted (edited)

There been a lot of talk about this with people ik irl and people saying similar to this idea but I feel like we are missing out if they don't add this mode. When it comes to me I had played ksp for years but was never really any good at it. But when the career mode was introduced it forced me to learn each step and vitalize the items I had on me. I made me feel like an engineer to face the problem of money restraint and vitalizing my designs so they do exactly what the need to do. All though if I had to add a system with it it be a rival space industry race me for contracts and we need to make co op missions to help each other out or don't. Make a space colony/dock to make money with other companies etc. I just dont want only exploration I want to be invested in each action I do. I want my mistakes to have value, I want were theirs limited food, water, and the air they breath. I want it so i need to worry about my kerbals mental health and physical health. I truly want to live in this solar system and the galaxy itself and face all the real complications of those ways to get there. I know this would make the game so much harder and complex but wouldn't you want to face all the obstacles of it to better understand what we need to face in real life and what we can do to solve these problems. I know some have the same opinion and some don't but it should be an option if we want to face it. 

Edited by Hallahan

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I want more information on the “adventure mode” first to get a feel of how that might play like and what kind of constraints it has that make it different from sandbox mode  

The great thing is that I can easily see mods coming out for stuff like this if it doesn’t meet your needs.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MechBFP said:

I want more information on the “adventure mode” first to get a feel of how that might play like and what kind of constraints it has that make it different from sandbox mode  

The great thing is that I can easily see mods coming out for stuff like this if it doesn’t meet your needs.

Ik right I wish there was more info 

Edited by Hallahan

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I agree there should be design constraints which force the player to optimize their designs; but I don't think that constraint necessarily has to be "funds". There has been some discussion of limiting the maximum size of ship you can launch - which imposes a different kind of constraint. A better design can do more with the same mass/size limits - and limiting the size of launched ships may force players to utilize orbital construction combining via docking ports and delivering parts and ships sections pre-designed to produce an efficient end-construction.

Funds might be kept solely as a means of keeping "score" to a certain extent, but they are not the only way to gamify engineering optimization.

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Posted (edited)

detail:

b0k5aJP.png

@Hallahan i hope the image i grabbed copies over (on mobile atm) but if it doesnt you can find it over on the ksp2 episode 1.5 working from home thread in a post by @Master39 . In the image he found on reddit by reddit user u/Rhumernaut (the link is is Master39’s post) we see parts cost resources. Iirc funds are not in/being stressed in ksp2, but it seems the focus now is resources rather than fund. I know no more so wont speculate. Just wanted to show you this. Personally i think this is better than funds, but thats just me.

 

054106272020

074906272020

Edited by AlamoVampire

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I would agree that the 'progression' mode does seem as if it will need some way of applying a 'cost' to parts, whether it be mineral resources, time, or finances or whatever scheme or combination they come up with.

Maybe...  You can use funds to buy stocks of some 'common' resources (eg. ore), but don't yet harvest or have enough stock to hand in the location you need.  With the more exotic resources only becoming available when you mine them yourself.  These stocks of resources you hold are then used to make the parts and fuels etc. you need.

So rather than buy the 'parts' you buy the raw materials, and use them to make the parts to order with a 3D printer equivalent.

Then again... Thinking about it more, maybe not, but it's an idea...

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I love the current career mode, it's all I play. I haven't touched the sandbox mode.

Career, with a good contract pack, is awesome.

 

I see no reason to take it out. If they want to offer another mode, fine, but I don't see why it means the current career mode has to go.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, WelshSteW said:

I love the current career mode, it's all I play. I haven't touched the sandbox mode.

Career, with a good contract pack, is awesome.

 

I see no reason to take it out. If they want to offer another mode, fine, but I don't see why it means the current career mode has to go.

KSP career mode relies mostly on abstract entities and systems implementing their effect on the game without actually having them. Rescue and resource transfer contracts are a great example of this since there is no actual other player or agency requiring those services.

KSP2 won’t need this level of abstraction and that’s why the devs are trying to distance the game from concepts like “contracts”, “career” and “science” using instead terms like “missions”, “progression” and “adventure”.

 

Let’s take as an example of this the resources/fuels confirmed to be in the game:

  • Ore (seen in the last video)
  • Uranium (seen in the last video)
  • Liquid Fuel
  • Oxidizer
  • Monoprop
  • Xenon
  • Some sort of food (we can see some greenhouses in the last video)
  • Nukes for the orion
  • Fusion fuel for the fusion engines
  • Metallic hydrogen
  • Doped metallic hydrogen

All of these will need to be mined, refined or manufactured and transferred between bases and stations.

We’ll have to orbitally scan bodies to find deposits, build mining bases and means to transfer the mined resources to the places where they’re used.

 

The stations and bases will also become useful, we’ll have all sorts of them around, just to cite the few confirmed different kinds of buildings/bases:

  • Mines
  • Farms
  • Factories
  • Scientific outposts
  • Colonies
  • Nurseries 
  • Off-Kerbin launch centers
  • Orbital shipyards

All of them with their crew, life support and supply lines (the automation of “milk runs” system) to manage. There’s no need for abstract contracts, “missions” will likely be based on the thing you’ve actually built.

They seem to be putting a lot more effort in this “progression” mode than science or career ever got.

 

Edit: rewritten the entire comment, I put the old text in a spoiler for reference.

Spoiler

 

KSP1 career mode is mostly a system to implement the effects of other entities/systems without having them in the game such as rescue missions without other agencies or players, satellite contacts were you get to design and keep the satellite or resource transport missions with no actual use or sense (extract ore from Eve and bring it to Gilly).

KSP2 won't need that.

Resource extraction? Just remaining in the confirmed things you'll have:

  • Ore (as seen in the last video)
  • Uranium (as seen in the last video)
  • Liquid Fuel or analogue (from KSP1)
  • Monoprop or analogue (from KSP1)
  • Xenon or analogue (from KSP1)
  • Some sort of food resource (you can see greenhouses in the last video)
  • Nukes (for the already shown Orion engines)
  • Fusion fuel (for the already shown fusion engines)
  • Metallic hydrogen (for the already shown engines)
  • Doped metallic hydrogen (as above)

All those resources will require (if they just work as KSP1 Ore) orbital scanning, surface scanning, extraction, transportation and refinement/manifacture before being used.

You'll have new kind of bases with new uses, just remaining in the confirmed ones:

  • Mines (already present in KSP1)
  • Farms (greenhouses shown in the last video)
  • Factories
  • scientific / exploration outposts
  • colonies
  • nurseries
  • launch centers
  • orbital shipyards

And on top of that we have the confirmation of Life support (at least some) and supply lines (automation of "milk runs"), you'll have plenty to do even without KSP1's abstract contracts, whole new sets of infrastructure to build and technologies to unlock.

On top of that they confirmed you'll still have "mission" if you want to do them. Why "mission" and not "contracts"? For the same reason they keep using different worlds like "progression" or "adventure" to describe  whatever mode they're designing to replace KSP1 career/science, to avoid creating expectations on how those system will work.

One thing is sure: they're giving progression a lot more thought than they ever did with career and sicence.

 

 

Edited by Master39

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1 hour ago, Master39 said:

On top of that they confirmed you'll still have "mission" if you want to do them. Why "mission" and not "contracts"? For the same reason they keep using different worlds like "progression" or "adventure" to describe  whatever mode they're designing to replace KSP1 career/science, to avoid creating expectations on how those system will work.

One thing is sure: they're giving progression a lot more thought than they ever did with career and sicence.

I just hope it doesn't turn into a very linear and repeated process. Also, no offense, but you might want to take up proof reading.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Also, no offense, but you might want to take up proof reading.

No offense taken, I’m at work and I rushed this one out without even reading what I was writing.

Now I have rewritten the whole thing to make it more understandable.

 

2 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

I just hope it doesn't turn into a very linear and repeated process.

That's why I hope that not everything is available everywhere and that there will be some environmental hazards like temperature or pressure to take into account when building.

Edited by Master39

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Master39 said:

KSP career mode relies mostly on abstract entities and systems implementing their effect on the game without actually having them. Rescue and resource transfer contracts are a great example of this since there is no actual other player or agency requiring those services.

KSP2 won’t need this level of abstraction and that’s why the devs are trying to distance the game from concepts like “contracts”, “career” and “science” using instead terms like “missions”, “progression” and “adventure”.

 

Let’s take as an example of this the resources/fuels confirmed to be in the game:

  • Ore (seen in the last video)
  • Uranium (seen in the last video)
  • Liquid Fuel
  • Oxidizer
  • Monoprop
  • Xenon
  • Some sort of food (we can see some greenhouses in the last video)
  • Nukes for the orion
  • Fusion fuel for the fusion engines
  • Metallic hydrogen
  • Doped metallic hydrogen

All of these will need to be mined, refined or manufactured and transferred between bases and stations.

We’ll have to orbitally scan bodies to find deposits, build mining bases and means to transfer the mined resources to the places where they’re used.

 

The stations and bases will also become useful, we’ll have all sorts of them around, just to cite the few confirmed different kinds of buildings/bases:

  • Mines
  • Farms
  • Factories
  • Scientific outposts
  • Colonies
  • Nurseries 
  • Off-Kerbin launch centers
  • Orbital shipyards

All of them with their crew, life support and supply lines (the automation of “milk runs” system) to manage. There’s no need for abstract contracts, “missions” will likely be based on the thing you’ve actually built.

They seem to be putting a lot more effort in this “progression” mode than science or career ever got.

 

Edit: rewritten the entire comment, I put the old text in a spoiler for reference.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

KSP1 career mode is mostly a system to implement the effects of other entities/systems without having them in the game such as rescue missions without other agencies or players, satellite contacts were you get to design and keep the satellite or resource transport missions with no actual use or sense (extract ore from Eve and bring it to Gilly).

KSP2 won't need that.

Resource extraction? Just remaining in the confirmed things you'll have:

  • Ore (as seen in the last video)
  • Uranium (as seen in the last video)
  • Liquid Fuel or analogue (from KSP1)
  • Monoprop or analogue (from KSP1)
  • Xenon or analogue (from KSP1)
  • Some sort of food resource (you can see greenhouses in the last video)
  • Nukes (for the already shown Orion engines)
  • Fusion fuel (for the already shown fusion engines)
  • Metallic hydrogen (for the already shown engines)
  • Doped metallic hydrogen (as above)

All those resources will require (if they just work as KSP1 Ore) orbital scanning, surface scanning, extraction, transportation and refinement/manifacture before being used.

You'll have new kind of bases with new uses, just remaining in the confirmed ones:

  • Mines (already present in KSP1)
  • Farms (greenhouses shown in the last video)
  • Factories
  • scientific / exploration outposts
  • colonies
  • nurseries
  • launch centers
  • orbital shipyards

And on top of that we have the confirmation of Life support (at least some) and supply lines (automation of "milk runs"), you'll have plenty to do even without KSP1's abstract contracts, whole new sets of infrastructure to build and technologies to unlock.

On top of that they confirmed you'll still have "mission" if you want to do them. Why "mission" and not "contracts"? For the same reason they keep using different worlds like "progression" or "adventure" to describe  whatever mode they're designing to replace KSP1 career/science, to avoid creating expectations on how those system will work.

One thing is sure: they're giving progression a lot more thought than they ever did with career and sicence.

 

 

 

Career mode, right now, with a / some good contract pack(s), is brilliant. Not for everyone, sure; I understand that. But why take it away from the people who do like it?

It may turn out that this new adventure mode is the absolute b*ll*cks, and that I love it more than career mode. I'm open to that possibility. But I'm concerned I'm losing something I know I love, and getting something that I might love. Which is why I'd prefer the adventure mode to be a third alternative, rather than a direct replacement.

 

At the moment, I can start my space program, and have outside agencies contact me and offer me money, to carry out a contract / mission for them. Or tourists approach me and offer me money to fly them somewhere, or take them into orbit.

How's that going to work in this new adventure mode? Is an outside agency going to offer me ore? Or uranium? Is a tourist going to offer me the same??

I don't understand how it's going to work*. I fully accept that if I want to set up a base, or a station, or something, it'd be a great addition to the game to make it require resources**. And if I want to expand that base, I should be able to gather resources from wherever, and expand the base in situ, rather than flying everything out from KSC. That bit of the new mode, if I've understood everything and that's what's happening, will be great. 

Again, all I'm saying is that it could be added as another option, and keep the current career mode as another option.

 

Sorry for labouring my point.

 

 

*and that's the big thing. We don't know. Maybe as details are released it'll become clearer, but right now, for me at least, it doesn't look good.

 

**I know there are mods that'll do this right now.

Edited by WelshSteW
Better wording

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1 hour ago, WelshSteW said:

But why take it away from the people who do like it?

Nobody is taking away anything, a new studio is writing a new game and not having 8 years of legacy to mantain it's one of the biggest advanteges of doing it.

 

1 hour ago, WelshSteW said:

I fully accept that if I want to set up a base, or a station, or something, it'd be a great addition to the game to make it require resources**. And if I want to expand that base, I should be able to gather resources from wherever, and expand the base in situ, rather than flying everything out from KSC. That bit of the new mode, if I've understood everything and that's what's happening, will be great. 

Again, all I'm saying is that it could be added as another option, and keep the current career mode as another option.

That's not a "gamemode" that's how the game is going to work, and every base and station will not be just a cosmetic thing or an ore tank with 16 seats strapped on you landed somewere random because a contract told you so, but a working piece of a bigger infrastructure.

The scope of KSP2 is just mindbogglingly  bigger, why should anyone go back to pretending things are there when you can actually build them?

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(Nevermind. I goofed. You saw nothing!) 

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17 hours ago, Master39 said:

That's why I hope that not everything is available everywhere and that there will be some environmental hazards like temperature or pressure to take into account when building.

Honestly the way it looks, I don't think I will enjoy the stock game as much but the modding scene has me really excited. I just hope the groundwork is laid right for modders. 

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19 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Honestly the way it looks, I don't think I will enjoy the stock game as much

I can't see how, the base game seems to be the same but better if you just want to explore without building anything and bring monolithic bases (or stations) launched in one piece from the KSC.

 

The only thing that has me preoccupied is the transition between KSP1 and KSP2 features, I know I'll have a blast building a new KSC on Mun and setting up all the infrastructure, but how do we get there?

Will "KSP1-style" bases and stations be useful? How the unlocking of KSP1 parts will go? All of them unlocked at the beginning? You must unlock them just like in KSP1?

In one case you would play this "better KSP1" to unlock all the new shiny features, in the other you would be able to just rush to your first extraplanetary VAB and then enjoy a really different experience from what you're used to.

 

19 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

the modding scene has me really excited.

Absolutely.

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1 minute ago, Master39 said:

I can't see how, the base game seems to be the same but better if you just want to explore without building anything and bring monolithic bases (or stations) launched in one piece from the KSC.

 

The only thing that has me preoccupied is the transition between KSP1 and KSP2 features, I know I'll have a blast building a new KSC on Mun and setting up all the infrastructure, but how do we get there?

Will "KSP1-style" bases and stations be useful? How the unlocking of KSP1 parts will go? All of them unlocked at the beginning? You must unlock them just like in KSP1?

In one case you would play this "better KSP1" to unlock all the new shiny features, in the other you would be able to just rush to your first extraplanetary VAB and then enjoy a really different experience from what you're used to.

Im not much of a sandbox player so adventure mode will be everything for me (other than multiplayer which I am ecstatic about). Perhaps I misspoke, but I am skeptical or maybe just in awe of how well they will have to balance the vast amount of features there seems to be in this game. Giving each too much detail may bog down the player into a game of constant upkeeping, too little detail and the game will feel hollow. In a game where just leaving kerbin seemed to be a massive hurdle for many, not just due to difficulty but logistics and incentives as well, the scope of the game is just so massive... It's just hard to picture it actually coming together well without cutting out many of the minutia developed in KSP 1. For instance, will commsat still be a thing? Will we still be doing things like putting communications satellites and relays around each body? How long will settling, developing, and expanding a single colony take and other than a VAB why will we even need them? If it is required how long will resource extraction and management take? Will we be able to plan ahead for our colonies and have them automatically fill out or will we have to independently harvest all of the resources manually? The sheer amount of hours that will be required to make substantial advancements in this game seem like they will be staggering but making it any less will feel like the experience is being cheapened. IDK... I'm kind of just lost for words and filled with questions I guess.

 

Honestly if multiplayer is done right I cant wait to see what can be created in a server that plays seriously. The scope, to me, looks like it could make factorio seem minimalistic and watching what hatches out of those MP servers with 30+ players...

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On 6/27/2020 at 12:41 PM, AlamoVampire said:

detail:

b0k5aJP.png

@Hallahan i hope the image i grabbed copies over (on mobile atm) but if it doesnt you can find it over on the ksp2 episode 1.5 working from home thread in a post by @Master39 . In the image he found on reddit by reddit user u/Rhumernaut (the link is is Master39’s post) we see parts cost resources. Iirc funds are not in/being stressed in ksp2, but it seems the focus now is resources rather than fund. I know no more so wont speculate. Just wanted to show you this. Personally i think this is better than funds, but thats just me.

 

054106272020

074906272020

This makes some sense, on an colony money don't makes that much sense, your constrain is materials. 
Why an nose cone need uranium is another question, hopefully just an placeholder.  

Now you could easy see this translate to fund at KSC but in practice fund tend not to be an major constrain on building stuff in KSP 1. Funds rater constrain how many kerbals you can buy. 

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3 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Im not much of a sandbox player so adventure mode will be everything for me (other than multiplayer which I am ecstatic about). Perhaps I misspoke, but I am skeptical or maybe just in awe of how well they will have to balance the vast amount of features there seems to be in this game. Giving each too much detail may bog down the player into a game of constant upkeeping, too little detail and the game will feel hollow. In a game where just leaving kerbin seemed to be a massive hurdle for many, not just due to difficulty but logistics and incentives as well, the scope of the game is just so massive... It's just hard to picture it actually coming together well without cutting out many of the minutia developed in KSP 1. For instance, will commsat still be a thing? Will we still be doing things like putting communications satellites and relays around each body? How long will settling, developing, and expanding a single colony take and other than a VAB why will we even need them? If it is required how long will resource extraction and management take? Will we be able to plan ahead for our colonies and have them automatically fill out or will we have to independently harvest all of the resources manually? The sheer amount of hours that will be required to make substantial advancements in this game seem like they will be staggering but making it any less will feel like the experience is being cheapened. IDK... I'm kind of just lost for words and filled with questions I guess.

 

Honestly if multiplayer is done right I cant wait to see what can be created in a server that plays seriously. The scope, to me, looks like it could make factorio seem minimalistic and watching what hatches out of those MP servers with 30+ players...

The only thing we know is that the progression system is way more important to KSP2 than it ever was for KSP1, they seem to be building the whole game around the progression system and that means that means that "Adventure" mode is going to get a lot more effort, thought and polish than Career or Science have ever received.

Also remember that KSP is not Factorio, even with Career or Adventure KSP remains a sandbox game, never leaving Kerbin's SOI is not a wrong way to play and you never really "finish" it even if you build a colony on every planet and moon of every system, I don't think I'll reach another system in the first 6 months of playing KSP2.

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"Take feature that was stock in popular game and rerelease as DLC feature for sequel" is a method of capitalizing on a franchise commonly used by awful companies. Take Two is an awful company. Do not expect them to do the right thing here, unless it becomes very clear to them that nobody will buy the game if they don't.

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1 hour ago, kmMango said:

"Take feature that was stock in popular game and rerelease as DLC feature for sequel" is a method of capitalizing on a franchise commonly used by awful companies. Take Two is an awful company. Do not expect them to do the right thing here, unless it becomes very clear to them that nobody will buy the game if they don't.

They already revealed a lot of features bigger in size and scope than career and science, like colonization or interplanetary travel.

If they just wanted to capitalize on the IP why not porting career and science instead of developing a new gamemode from scratch to replace them and keep colonization and interplanetary travel for DLCs?

The discussion here isn't about the devs being in bad faith, is about "traditional but known KSP1 gamemodes" versus a new and unknown gamemode that the devs keep talking about.

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Hopefully the dev will realize there's a chunk of the community wanting career mode in someway back and add it as a feature to release date or later on

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