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Craft Construction Time


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18 hours ago, Lord Aurelius said:

Read some of my earlier posts. The added gameplay is time management to improve the space program management side of the game (time management is a staple of management games).

KSP isn't a management game, it's a rocket simulator. Nothing in the design pillars say anything about management, and overall construction time probably goes against the pillars. However, that doesn't answer the question of where you picked up KSP being a management game.

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7 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

However, that doesn't answer the question of where you picked up KSP being a management game.

Career existing, that's the management side of KSP 1.

Colony and resources for KSP 2.

The fact that's not the main design goal doesn't mean it has to be as bad as it is in KSP 1.

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5 minutes ago, Master39 said:
17 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

However, that doesn't answer the question of where you picked up KSP being a management game.

Career existing, that's the management side of KSP 1.

And a bunch of timers could have been added to KSP 1 for career mode, but that didn't happen because KSP isn't a management game at its core.

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Contracts, funds, a crew roster with stats and experience points, upgradable buildings, science gathering, tech tree progression, the whole idea of running a space program. These all sound like managerial aspects to me. And with KSP2 adding colony administration in some fashion, it could be going even more in that direction.

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1 minute ago, SBKerman said:

Contracts, funds, a crew roster with stats and experience points, upgradable buildings, science gathering, tech tree progression, the whole idea of running a space program. These all sound like managerial aspects to me. And with KSP2 adding colony administration in some fashion, it could be going even more in that direction.

 

19 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:
25 minutes ago, Master39 said:
37 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

However, that doesn't answer the question of where you picked up KSP being a management game.

Career existing, that's the management side of KSP 1.

And a bunch of timers could have been added to KSP 1 for career mode, but that didn't happen because KSP isn't a management game at its core.

 

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29 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

And a bunch of timers could have been added to KSP 1 for career mode, but that didn't happen because KSP isn't a management game at its core.

A bunch of features could have been added to KSP1's career but it didn't happen because there was no clear design goal and they practically abbandoned the mode after releasing the first prototype/placeholder.

 "A bunch of timers" are in fact already confirmed for KSP2, with colonies and craft requiring resources and supply lines, mining and refining/production taking time.

 

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Just now, Master39 said:
34 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

And a bunch of timers could have been added to KSP 1 for career mode, but that didn't happen because KSP isn't a management game at its core.

A bunch of features could have been added to KSP1's career but it didn't happen because there was no clear design goal and they practically abbandoned the mode after releasing the first prototype/placeholder.

 "A bunch of timers" are in fact already confirmed for KSP2, with colonies and craft requiring resources and supply lines, mining and refining/production taking time.

And? That actually makes sense but it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. You can't have colonies without resources or supply lines but you can have a game without a useless timer.

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8 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

And a bunch of timers could have been added to KSP 1 for career mode, but that didn't happen because KSP isn't a management game at its core. 

The point is, a lot of management functions were added, making at least career mode management oriented. Whether one considers career part of the game's core or not is up to personal taste I guess. For me it is, but others will disagree. Yourself included I presume. That's why it's important that a feature such as construction time, if included, is made optional. And no, I don't consider it a useless timer, as has been explained by myself and others in this thread.

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1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

KSP isn't a management game, it's a rocket simulator. Nothing in the design pillars say anything about management, and overall construction time probably goes against the pillars. However, that doesn't answer the question of where you picked up KSP being a management game.

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From the Steam store page description:

"Kerbal Space Program features three gameplay modes. In Science Mode, perform space experiments to unlock new technology and advance the knowledge of Kerbalkind. In Career Mode, oversee every aspect of the space program, including construction, strategy, funding, upgrades, and more. In Sandbox, you are free to build any spacecraft you can think of, with all parts and technology in the game."

That description for career mode sounds awfully like a management game to me.

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Just now, Lord Aurelius said:
1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

KSP isn't a management game, it's a rocket simulator. Nothing in the design pillars say anything about management, and overall construction time probably goes against the pillars. However, that doesn't answer the question of where you picked up KSP being a management game.

Actual-Image-1.png

From the Steam store page description:

"Kerbal Space Program features three gameplay modes. In Science Mode, perform space experiments to unlock new technology and advance the knowledge of Kerbalkind. In Career Mode, oversee every aspect of the space program, including construction, strategy, funding, upgrades, and more. In Sandbox, you are free to build any spacecraft you can think of, with all parts and technology in the game."

That description for career mode sounds awfully like a management game to me.

Huh. Alright then. It's a management game on one mode. Hopefully it stays that way.

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1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said:

Huh. Alright then. It's a management game on one mode. Hopefully it stays that way.

That's all I'm asking for. There are times when I just want to build and fly rockets without the other considerations as well, but when I'm in the mood to actually build and manage a space program I want it to be the full package including time management and its supporting features, not the half-baked career we have now. This is what I hope to have as a game mode in KSP2.

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26 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

There's about 50 replies from you, no point in reading all of them.

TLDR: Resources required for extraplanetary launchpads + automated supply lines = construction time.

For more details read the previous pages.

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5 minutes ago, Master39 said:
39 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

There's about 50 replies from you, no point in reading all of them.

TLDR: Resources required for extraplanetary launchpads + automated supply lines = construction time.

Not quite the same. I thought we were talking about the construction time of craft, not the colonies and the supply lines.

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33 minutes ago, Master39 said:
36 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Not quite the same.

Not quite the same concept on paper, practically the same exact gameplay requirement and consequences.

I don't care because I want the launch button to instantly take me to my craft, regardless of colonies.

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Just now, Bej Kerman said:

I don't care because I want the launch button to instantly take me to my craft, regardless of colonies.

If you're launching from outside Kerbin you are going to need to deliver resources needed to build things before you can launch them, so it won't be istantaneous.

 

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5 minutes ago, Master39 said:
22 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I don't care because I want the launch button to instantly take me to my craft, regardless of colonies.

If you're launching from outside Kerbin you are going to need to deliver resources needed to build things before you can launch them, so it won't be istantaneous.

No, but clicking the launch button after gathering said resources should be.

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IMO, this is a crucial feature for realism-oriented playstyle. It forces you to plan in advance and to optimize your mission design. Personally, I just can't imagine playing KSP without Kerbal Construction Time any more. So I would welcome such a feature in KSP2, and the good news is that it can probably be simply disabled for those who don't want it.

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Planning a trip to Jool? You're gonna need satellites to communicate, even in sandbox. So that means one trip for a satellite batch and another for your main objective. Unless of course you just plan on packing your entire trip, all things included in one launch. Or you could just ship a single/few/bunch of kerbals with no way to interchange data back to KSC. Totally fine, plenty of people do it all the time :sticktongue: Poor guys. Regardless, each time you decide to go somewhere, you have to decide HOW to do it, and thus manage your rockets' designs and flight paths. That's also not including where you'll be landing if at all and whether you'll be doing In-Situ Resource gathering operations. 

The point is, whether you like it or not, at some point in KSP you'll be managing something if not many things. To say KSP is not a management game is to be blind to the fact that no matter what you do, you'll always have to plan ahead. This isn't Call of Duty. This isn't Forza. This is KSP lol. 

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39 minutes ago, James M said:

Planning a trip to Jool? You're gonna need satellites to communicate, even in sandbox. So that means one trip for a satellite batch and another for your main objective. Unless of course you just plan on packing your entire trip, all things included in one launch. Or you could just ship a single/few/bunch of kerbals with no way to interchange data back to KSC. Totally fine, plenty of people do it all the time :sticktongue: Poor guys. Regardless, each time you decide to go somewhere, you have to decide HOW to do it, and thus manage your rockets' designs and flight paths. That's also not including where you'll be landing if at all and whether you'll be doing In-Situ Resource gathering operations. 

The point is, whether you like it or not, at some point in KSP you'll be managing something if not many things. To say KSP is not a management game is to be blind to the fact that no matter what you do, you'll always have to plan ahead. This isn't Call of Duty. This isn't Forza. This is KSP lol. 

The point isn't about mission planning or time wasted by the need to refuel. The point is some people want to launch immediately after pressing the launch button and some people want to wait. 

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I'm going to come down on the side of KSP not being a management game. You don't actually manage anything at the space center. All you do is buy things.

You "manage" your ships in the same way a Diablo player "Manages" his inventory. I wouldn't call Diablo a management game, and I wouldn't call KSP one either.

KSP is a game about building and flying rockets and realistic(ish) space ships and probes. The extra stuff is just to give the player tasks to complete to flesh the game out, the same way Geralt sometimes has to go talk to someone on behalf of someone else so they'll reconcile. The Witcher - incidentally - is not a relationship sim in spite of this activity.

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48 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I'm going to come down on the side of KSP not being a management game. You don't actually manage anything at the space center. All you do is buy things.

You "manage" your ships in the same way a Diablo player "Manages" his inventory. I wouldn't call Diablo a management game, and I wouldn't call KSP one either.

KSP is a game about building and flying rockets and realistic(ish) space ships and probes. The extra stuff is just to give the player tasks to complete to flesh the game out, the same way Geralt sometimes has to go talk to someone on behalf of someone else so they'll reconcile. The Witcher - incidentally - is not a relationship sim in spite of this activity.

Maneuver nodes, contracts (For career modes of course), and trip planning, are all things I'd say make up a good chunk of the game play. I guess my question is, how much time do we generally spend managing our flights vs the amount of time we actually spend flying them? Diablo isn't a management game because you only spend maybe 20% of game time in the inventory screen. The Witcher isn't a relationship sim because you only spend a small chunk of game time actually sitting there speaking to npcs. You get what I'm saying? The amount of time spend managing things properly in ksp actually rivals the amount of time we spend straight up flying our crafts. In fact I'd argue most of our time is spend constructing rockets, time warping and maneuver planning if anything. 

Edited by James M
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30 minutes ago, James M said:

Maneuver nodes, contracts (For career modes of course), and trip planning, are all things I'd say make up a good chunk of the game play. I guess my question is, how much time do we generally spend managing our flights vs the amount of time we actually spend flying them? Diablo isn't a management game because you only spend maybe 20% of game time in the inventory screen. The Witcher isn't a relationship sim because you only spend a small chunk of game time actually sitting there speaking to npcs. You get what I'm saying? The amount of time spend managing things properly in ksp actually rivals the amount of time we spend straight up flying our crafts. In fact I'd argue most of our time is spend constructing rockets, time warping and maneuver planning if anything. 

Agreed, unless you're flying in atmo, launching/landing or doing silly rocket/rover/vehicle hijinks, the vast majority of most missions are done on the map screen setting maneuver nodes and warping between them. It most definitely is a building game though, my time in the VAB/SPH trumps all my flight time by a large margin.

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