Revamping KSC building progression

[EchoLima]

Here are suggestions that make building restrictions less arbitrary, and based more on realistic space agency limitations.

 

VAB / SPH 

Part count restrictions should be entirely removed. Instead, put stricter limits on everything else (mass and dimensions). These are problems that real engineers need to contend with, not arbitrary part count limits.

Misison Control

Don't limit how many contacts you can accept. Instead, limit what kinds of contracts you can accept, restricting more valuable contracts to later tiers. Alternatively, offer the same contracts, but manually cap the rewards in earlier tiers.

Astronaut Complex

In later tiers, astronauts can be hired at Level 1, or instead can be trained at a cost.

Administration Building

Strategies should punish/reward gameplay choices. On example is to have one strategy reward achieving multiple firsts in one mission (eg first orbit + first landing), while another rewards spacing out achievements over multiple missions (eg send a flyby craft before an orbiter). Another example is to reward the use of probes over crewed vehicles, and vice versa.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by EchoLima

[Gargamel]

47 minutes ago, EchoLima said:

In later tiers, astronauts can be hired at Level 1, or instead can be trained at a cost.

And the cost of each new kerbal shouldn't follow a linear/exponential curve (I forget which it follows) but a logarithmic or square rootic one.  The cost of your first kerbal is a lot, and doubling that means doubling the costs, but for each new kerbal, it costs less and less to add one.  The costs increase, but each increase is less.   So eventually your 100th kerbal might cost 5 times what your first one did,  but your 150th shouldn't be that much more. 

You shouldn't be allowed to train your kerbals beyond your second highest experience kerbal (gotta leave a little room for on the job learning).  And your increased costs to train them upon hire also follow the same curve as above.  So if you get one of the orange suits to level 3, training you first new hire to level 2 should be immense, but the subsequent trainees cost less and less. 

We all know the Funds are pretty much limitless in the stock game after a point, and the hiring of new kerbals at inflated costs is an artificial kludge to try to balance that. 

 

[James M]

Step one) Create command pod Mk1

Step two) Create like 500 modular girders stacked end to end on top of pod

Step three) Create another command pod Mk1 on top of stack

Step four) Launch

Step five) Transfer Kerbal from bottom to top

Step six) Enjoy space while it lasts! 

[klgraham1013]

On 7/8/2020 at 9:16 PM, EchoLima said:

Part count restrictions should be entirely removed. Instead, put stricter limits on everything else (mass and dimensions). These are problems that real engineers need to contend with, not arbitrary part count limits.

Seems obvious.  Some how wasn't the solution implemented.  Definitely a head scratcher.

[Bej Kerman]

R&D: Probes before crew, smaller parts like thermometers and wheels before rockets and boosters. Why'd kerbals invent SRBs before liquid fuel, rockets before wheels and thermometers after all of that? Take inspiration from Human progression.

[Fraktal]

I'm of the opinion that the ability to create maneuver nodes should be separated from DSN signal strength.

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

R&D: Probes before crew, smaller parts like thermometers and wheels before rockets and boosters. Why'd kerbals invent SRBs before liquid fuel, rockets before wheels and thermometers after all of that? Take inspiration from Human progression.

There's a lot that could be done with the tech tree and a lot of people have different ideas regarding what direction it should be taken in. My own gripe with it is that the placement and distribution of many parts across the tech tree make no logical sense.

[Bej Kerman]

23 minutes ago, Fraktal said:

My own gripe with it is that the placement and distribution of many parts across the tech tree make no logical sense.

Exactly, it's like Kerbals found solid fuel instead of sticks and tools.

[Fraktal]

I know what you're saying, but there are logical limitations regarding how much we can modify the early tech tree without risking the player getting stuck if they pick the wrong order in the first few nodes and run out of science in range of what they can reach with their current gear.

I have a half-finished tech tree concept which I pulled out again for a general overhaul when I saw this topic today. The planned progress is:

• Tier 1 - sounding rockets
• Tier 2 - suborbital, first Mk1 planes to help with early science on Kerbin
• Tier 3 - orbital
• Tier 4 - Mun/Minmus
• Tier 5 - Duna/Ike/Gilly, Mk2 planes
• Tier 6 - Moho/Dres, Whiplash
• Tier 7 - Jool, Mk3 planes with RAPIER
• The player starts off with the Mk1 pod, the Basic Fin and the Mk16 parachute, no comments needed there. I'm also keeping the Flea as starting engine because there's no other alternative except for maybe the Mite. I don't want to start off with a liquid engine right away because it's got too much range. For science, thermometer comes first instead of the goo container. No other starting parts are available because you don't need any.
• Swivel is still the first unlocked liquid engine but it comes with the T200 fuel tank instead of the T100 one to make it easier to stay within a level 1 VAB's part count, balanced out by the fact that the 18 ton limit of the level 1 VAB is just barely enough to reach orbit without a Terrier at this point. All liquid fuel tanks follow the same system: second smallest tank plus average engine is given first, then the smallest tank plus vacuum engine on one node, second biggest tank plus strong engine given on another node, biggest tank given on a third node next tech level. I'm yet to fully figure out which Making History engine fits into which role in its size category, mainly because the wiki contradicts itself regarding which size these engines are in (part list says one size, individual parts' page says a different one).
• I also hand the player the Mite and the Shrimp alongside the Swivel on tier 1, but on a different node. SRBs are all on separate nodes from everything else, so it's up to the player whether he wants to invest in them or not. The Hammer is now tier 2, the Thumper tier 3, the Kickback and the escape tower tier 4.
• For science parts, tier 1 is the barometer, tier 2 is the mystery goo, tier 3 is the accelerometer, tier 4 is the materials bay and storage unit, tier 5 is the atmospheric fluid sensor (so that you can take it to Duna right away) and mobile lab,  tier 6 is the gravioli detector and the SENTINEL. I might move the mobile lab to tier 7, haven't decided yet.
• For landing gear, the LT-05 is handed out at tier 3, the LT-1 and the smallest rover wheel at tier 4 on the same node as the Mk1 landing can, the LT-2 and the next rover wheel at tier 5 on the same node as the Mk2 landing can, the final two rover wheels at tiers 6 and 7.
• The first inline decoupler, the first radial decoupler and the KV-1 pod with its built-in decoupler are all on the same node on tier 1. The KV-2 and KV-3 pods are tier 3 for now, the Mk2 pod and the MEM are tier 4.
• The Stayputnik is now tier 2, as is the 1.25m fairing, the smallest reaction wheel and the radial parachute, so that you can actually use this thing. Tier 3 has the OKTO, the first battery, fixed solar panels, the Ant engine with matching fuel tanks and the surface-mount Communotron so that you can start sending probes to the Mun. First relay antenna and the non-surface Communotron are tier 4 alongside the HECS and QBE cores (so you can now send out scientist-only single-seat missions), bringing Minmus within antenna range as well while still running on a level 1 Tracking Station. Tier 5 is the OKTO2 and RoveMate, tier 6 is the Mk2 core and the HECS2.
• For power, both OX-STATs are handed out at tier 3 alongside the OKTO just before the Mun, the non-retractable solar panels at tier 4, the retractable ones at tier 5 (so that they don't snap off when aerobraking at Duna), the small fuel cell at tier 6, everything else (Gigantor, big fuel cell, RTG) at tier 7.
• For ISRU, the orbital survey scanner is handed out at tier 5 so that the player can get the data on their first trip to Duna, the narrow-band scanner and small drill/tanks/converter at tier 6, the large drill/tank/converter at tier 7. Radiators are not handed out until tier 5 for the small one, tier 6 for the big ones (since you're going to Moho at this point), tier 7 for the retractable ones.
• Station building can begin as early as tier 3 via Clamp-O-Tron Jr.s and the Making History inflatable airlock, plus the octagonal strut parts and the tiny structural panels. Tier 4 adds the regular-sized Clamp-O-Tron , the modular girders, the first two structural tubes and the small/medium structural panels. Tier 5 adds the shielded and inline docking ports, the I-beams and the large structural tube and panels. Tier 6 adds the large docking port, the Klaw and the final structural panels, tier 6 and 7 add the two biggest structural tubes.
• I'm considering withholding the 1.25m heat shield until tier 4 since you don't need it any earlier, but the problem is that you can't reenter with a service bay without a heatshield. That is, the bay can withstand the heat but its massive drag is guaranteed to flip the craft over and burn off whatever is outside the bay, such as a Stayputnik or OKTO.

I tried to put the whole thing together so that everything is useful at the point where it is unlocked, instead of being immediately overshadowed by an even better part.

[Fraktal]

Alright, I did some testing today. The Mite SRB is indeed powerful enough to take the Flea's place as the starting engine of an unmanned-before-manned tech tree. One Mite can chuck a Stayputnik with a reaction wheel nearly into the upper atmosphere and it doesn't flip nearly as much as an Onion strapped to a Flea. So we have that.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Fraktal

[kerbiloid]

A statue of Jeb Kerman at the KSC.
An alley with busts of Bob, Bill, and others.
On-wall red banners with inspiring slogans ("To Duna in one month instead of four!").
Honorary on-wall pennants and on-chest tokens of udarnik for the best kerbonauts.

[Vexillar]

 

On 7/9/2020 at 4:20 AM, Gargamel said:

your 100th kerbal might cost 5 times what your first one did,  but your 150th shouldn't be that much more

That's a much better reflection of reality, but I guess that the hiring cost model we have in KSP1 is designed to discourage us from treating our little green friends as expendable. 

 

On 7/9/2020 at 4:20 AM, Gargamel said:

You shouldn't be allowed to train your kerbals beyond your second highest experience kerbal (gotta leave a little room for on the job learning). 

I like that though...

[Gargamel]

6 hours ago, Vexillar said:

That's a much better reflection of reality, but I guess that the hiring cost model we have in KSP1 is designed to discourage us from treating our little green friends as expendable. 

Wait...... what?   Have I been doing this wrong for the last 8 years???