Krulliam

A Contribution To The Discourse Of Kerbal Reproduction With No Value What-So-Ever and Me Deluding Myself Into Thinking That Attempting To Feign Self-Awareness of Said Lack Of Value This Post Has Somehow Negates How Stupid And Pointless It Is.

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Posted (edited)

4AP4wTK.png

 

also in slightly unrelated territory, the fact Kerbals now blink (let alone have eyelids) terrifies me to no end and I believe that whatever deity happened to sneeze us into existence has abandoned us long ago

Edited by Krulliam

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Is this a thread about kerbal love m****g

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Posted (edited)

I would say in advice the same rule as I say for any pixar movie; never pause an animation...

And seriously? The title?

Also I just saw this, they finally fixed the problem of the left eye being smaller than the right

Also Also this needs to be nominated as thread of the month! (for the reason of how he points out kerbals can blink)

Edited by The Doodling Astronaut

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I thought this might be a legitimate topic about colonies and population growth. And then I saw the picture.

Personally, I think there are two routes to take with population growth. 1) Ignore nuances of reproduction entirely. Given right condition, where there is one kerbal, there will be more! Maybe they're budding, maybe it's spores. Who can say? 2) Go full Dwarf Fortress on it and model complex social dynamics and relationships, meaning you'll probably need a few dozen kerbals in a colony before two of them decide that they like each other enough and you even have a chance at population growth.

Anything in between feels half-baked.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, K^2 said:

I thought this might be a legitimate topic about colonies and population growth. And then I saw the picture.

Personally, I think there are two routes to take with population growth. 1) Ignore nuances of reproduction entirely. Given right condition, where there is one kerbal, there will be more! Maybe they're budding, maybe it's spores. Who can say? 2) Go full Dwarf Fortress on it and model complex social dynamics and relationships, meaning you'll probably need a few dozen kerbals in a colony before two of them decide that they like each other enough and you even have a chance at population growth.

Anything in between feels half-baked.

Well let's be fair this is Kerbal *SPACE* Program after all, not Kerbal Social-Dynamics Simulation Program. I think integrating too many subsystems such as this on top of an already complex game would be a little gratuitous plus I would rather prefer launching rockets then playing Kerbal Space Eugenics especially when it's something that's not exactly fun. I feel like there will be something there but otherwise making it uber complex would probably just not be necessary unless you're really into picturing your Kerbals getting their freak on.

Edited by Krulliam

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Why....just why.....I think that picture caused us all some brain cells....

Well, kerbals gotta celebrate new discoveries I guess....

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That must be the 'Boom Event' that Nate mentioned.

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That picture is just... Oh no

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2 hours ago, Davi SDF said:

That picture is just... Oh no

Burn it with fire

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Krulliam said:

Well let's be fair this is Kerbal *SPACE* Program after all, not Kerbal Social-Dynamics Simulation Program. I think integrating too many subsystems such as this on top of an already complex game would be a little gratuitous plus I would rather prefer launching rockets then playing Kerbal Space Eugenics especially when it's something that's not exactly fun. I feel like there will be something there but otherwise making it uber complex would probably just not be necessary unless you're really into picturing your Kerbals getting their freak on.

Social dynamics are implied by it being a Program and not being called random kerbals builds space contraption. 
 

would Star Trek be as popular as it is if it was pompous guy going to other planets to annoy people. 

Edited by mattinoz
Add Star Trek reference

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Who would have thought, an R rated Kerbal discussion.

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36 minutes ago, fragtzack said:

Who would have thought, an R rated Kerbal discussion.

I wonder how long it’ll take for this thread to get locked or for content to be removed.:/

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Lewie said:

I wonder how long it’ll take for this thread to get locked or for content to be removed.:/

Let's not try it, shall we? We need to try to keep the conversation rated

rating-pg.png

(Disclaimer - The following is my opinion, not as a moderator, but as a regular forum member)

Now, as far as reproduction, there are a lot of viable options out there :

On 8/1/2020 at 1:11 AM, K^2 said:

Personally, I think there are two routes to take with population growth. 1) Ignore nuances of reproduction entirely. Given right condition, where there is one kerbal, there will be more! Maybe they're budding, maybe it's spores. Who can say? 2) Go full Dwarf Fortress on it and model complex social dynamics and relationships, meaning you'll probably need a few dozen kerbals in a colony before two of them decide that they like each other enough and you even have a chance at population growth.

Anything in between feels half-baked.

Okay, I can understand and appreciate this viewpoint. It is a game, after all. Some people out there can barely handle the human reproductive cycle. To throw an hypothesized alien reproductive cycle causes one to ask is this really necessary for a game? What we do not want to have happen is for KSP to become KSP2+The SimsTM. I've enjoyed this game since 0.18 - before science and career more were even added to the game. I still prefer sandbox mode because I like to be able to enjoy playing the game where I define what my mission objectives are.

This is why I've been opposed to adding stock life support to the game. Sure, some will like it, and I'm one of those who would. But for many, having to worry about food, water, air, and waste would over-complicate an already complicated game. Adding reproductive elements would have to be careful not to over-complicate the game or risk becoming CIV VI. If you read the reviews for that game, one either loves or hates it. And games like that never sell to their full potential.

On 8/1/2020 at 6:19 AM, Krulliam said:

Well let's be fair this is Kerbal *SPACE* Program after all, not Kerbal Social-Dynamics Simulation Program. I think integrating too many subsystems such as this on top of an already complex game would be a little gratuitous plus I would rather prefer launching rockets then playing Kerbal Space Eugenics especially when it's something that's not exactly fun. I feel like there will be something there but otherwise making it uber complex would probably just not be necessary unless you're really into picturing your Kerbals getting their freak on.

Yes. Exactly.

I could easily see some sort of "cloning" center where after a predetermined length of time, out pops a new, fully adult Kerman. Have them trait-neutral (not already pre-programmed to be a pilot, engineer, or scientist) and maybe have them have to complete certain requirements to earn the trait desired. But even then, it could become a very complex part of game play which could be one reason I would probably not  purchase KSP2. I play games to get away from reality and to de-stress...

Edited by adsii1970
Added moderator disclaimer above my thoughts...

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1 hour ago, adsii1970 said:

Let's not try it, shall we? We need to try to keep the conversation rated

rating-pg.png

(Disclaimer - The following is my opinion, not as a moderator, but as a regular forum member)

 

I mean it's not necessarily explicit, I mean yeah the implication and intent is certainly there and we can all tell what this is even with minimal context but still I'm totally innocent officer I swear.

Would think this falls well under crude humor, only in this case crude in every sense of the word.

1 hour ago, adsii1970 said:

Okay, I can understand and appreciate this viewpoint. It is a game, after all. Some people out there can barely handle the human reproductive cycle. To throw an hypothesized alien reproductive cycle causes one to ask is this really necessary for a game? What we do not want to have happen is for KSP to become KSP2+The SimsTM. I've enjoyed this game since 0.18 - before science and career more were even added to the game. I still prefer sandbox mode because I like to be able to enjoy playing the game where I define what my mission objectives are.

I could easily see some sort of "cloning" center where after a predetermined length of time, out pops a new, fully adult Kerman. Have them trait-neutral (not already pre-programmed to be a pilot, engineer, or scientist) and maybe have them have to complete certain requirements to earn the trait desired. But even then, it could become a very complex part of game play which could be one reason I would probably not  purchase KSP2. I play games to get away from reality and to de-stress...

I would guess that it won't be a core gameplay mechanic but it's implied that colonies are just doing what colonies do in the background and that it's handled through some unseen force totally unrelated to what the player is doing. Your actions could influence the colony indirectly but you won't be required to intervene and micromanage the daily hub bub that goes on in them. You can handle something like this with just a little context given on the game's part and it doesn't even have to be some over complicated system since why does a rocket engineer have toil with the dealings of Kerbal colonists not getting enough toilet paper rations or if the CO2 scrubbers are failing, they got other Kerbs handling that who are probably more capable as well. As said by Wernher von Braun - "That's not my department."

Wouldn't exactly be opposed to some stuff like a Kerbal editor though if we really feel the need to take something from the Sims.

Also same, but in my case I just play games to escape a reality I am simply not capable of coping with and require near constant distraction or else the dread of my predicament in life starts manifesting again and trust me it ain't fun.

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5 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

Okay, I can understand and appreciate this viewpoint. It is a game, after all. Some people out there can barely handle the human reproductive cycle. To throw an hypothesized alien reproductive cycle causes one to ask is this really necessary for a game? What we do not want to have happen is for KSP to become KSP2+The SimsTM. I've enjoyed this game since 0.18 - before science and career more were even added to the game. I still prefer sandbox mode because I like to be able to enjoy playing the game where I define what my mission objectives are.

This is why I've been opposed to adding stock life support to the game. Sure, some will like it, and I'm one of those who would. But for many, having to worry about food, water, air, and waste would over-complicate an already complicated game. Adding reproductive elements would have to be careful not to over-complicate the game or risk becoming CIV VI. If you read the reviews for that game, one either loves or hates it. And games like that never sell to their full potential.

I think the big difference is that life support limits your ability to plan missions without adding anything interesting. Even if you allow for it to be regenerated, it's one more resource to keep track of, and losing a ship due to some life support problem seems like the most anticlimactic thing ever. I don't strictly oppose it, but I don't think it's necessary and it doesn't add to the game.

Colonies only make sense if they grow. So population being a factor makes sense. Yes, not strictly necessary, as you can make colony growth be purely industrial, but I think it actually adds something to a career-style game. Colonies you've established early on have time to grow and become more prominent. And that's a good way to mark progression through the game. It's rewarding, and therefore, a good mechanic. Again, just because a mechanic is good doesn't mean it has to be in any particular game, but it's worth discussing at very least.

And if we're saying that population growth is a factor, then there need to be rules for it. Like I said, the simplest thing is to simply have exponential growth and have population increase until you hit the limit afforded by amount of habitat space built. It's simple, it requires no special planning beyond hab space, and it gets the job done.

When I suggest the second option with complex dynamics, I by no means want to see it turned into Sims. There's reason I brought up Dwarf Fortress, where player has rather minimal impact on these things. And in a game like KSP, I would suggest having no impact at all. It's just a mechanic that happens in the background. Since you have the data, it could be fun to add little text descriptions for individuals and what they've been up to, but this would have no gameplay impact. The way such a simulation does impact gameplay is that it lets you introduce some additional parameters beyond just hab space that influence base growth and also requires a larger initial population, which means you can't start a colony by just bringing a couple of kerbals on a rocket and waiting long enough in time warp. You'd have to actually organize at least a few colony ship flights, possibly through some automation system similar to the cargo routes that have been mentioned.

And yes, there are ways to get that second effect through just coming up with a pop growth formula with enough tuning parameters. But a simple rules-based simulation is a much more fun to achieve some complex behaviors without having to write anything complex and fits the theme of the game better.

All in all, this is all about you building a base the way you want, while still having a sense of progression, as the population grows and you can expand your base. Whether mechanics for growth are very simple or very complex, the level of interaction is still about placing buildings and delivering resources necessary to do so, which is what KSP2 gameplay seems to be all about.

With all of the above said, absolutely, sandbox should still be a thing, and even if there is population growth mechanic that limits colony growth in career-style game, in sand box, that shouldn't be a factor. You should simply be allowed to place whatever modules you want for your bases and that's that.

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Posted (edited)

Presumably, as there are male and female kerbals, some form of 'interaction' between them would be required for population growth, as is the case with most life on Earth.  So it would seem sensible for it to be linked in some way to the proportions of each gender and overall population level without any need to consider the actual 'method' (beyond forum users' curiosity of course).

Edited by pandaman

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Posted (edited)

This looked like a bad joke at first but since serious discussion arose there's no reason not to feed it ^^
A multi-part response:

A: The best headcanon I've heard so far regarding Kerbal reproductive biology is, as mentioned above, based on spores. The green mat covering most of Kerbin's land is not in fact very short grass or moss but the stage in which Kerbalkind spends most of its time. In order to spread, it releases fruiting bodies that, over the eons, have become increasingly sophisticated to the point where they became mobile and intelligent. Like any fruiting body, they have a primordial calling to spread as far as possible from the source organism to ensure a maximum rate of spread and plenty of room for new growth. Thus every Kerbal feels a deep instinctive desire to, before its life is over, travel as far from home as it can, or failing that ensure another Kerbal's safe journey - hence Kerbalkind's enthusiasm for space travel even when great risks arise. When a Kerbal does die, it explodes, releasing a puff of brownish dust that contains spores that can grow into more green mat and eventually lead to the birth of more Kerbals. Existing as part of the green mat for most of their lives also explains how Kerbals seem to regularly spring up out of nowhere despite scant sign of any civilization on Kerbin's surface.
I may have embellished this unconsciously xP

B: If Kerbals do reproduce sexually, I'm about 99% sure it's by facing each other, them both doing a silly looking dance and turning around, and then one of them squatting and poofing a giant egg that after a few seconds hatches into a miniature Kerbal with a disproportionately large head and pair of eyeballs. Yes I'm calling you out, EA/Maxis.

C: I thought it'd freak me out or that I'd object due to being attached to the idea of Kerbals having lidless or chameleon-like eyes, but no, actually I think the eye lids make the Kerbals significantly cuter and more expressive. That yawn animation made me want to wrap the little thing up in blankets and brew it a cup of hot chocolate xD

Edited by problemecium
more text

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Hm. First of all, never ever pause an animation. 

Second, I don't want to have to micromanage populations, but I would like to see something similar to Stellaris, where you can optimize colonies for different tasks, and expand into other areas later. Recruiting kerbals might be affected by the location you are recruiting from, too. 

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This is obviously a tricky topic for the forums, but I have confidence that we're all mature enough to have a discussion about what the game mechanics will look like.

However, let's keep this PG, please. Some posts have been removed.

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On 7/31/2020 at 5:27 PM, Krulliam said:

also in slightly unrelated territory, the fact Kerbals now blink (let alone have eyelids) terrifies me to no end and I believe that whatever deity happened to sneeze us into existence has abandoned us long ago

I am still very confused of what you are asking. 

Oh wait are you asking how you kerbals will expand in populations in colonies. Right?

 

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Folks, if we've had to intervene 3 times in 2 days to keep the forum content clean, it's time to close the thread and move on to other topics. 

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