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No procedural wings = no buy. Simple.


Vegatoxi
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14 hours ago, Vegatoxi said:

For 2021 game, when everything is procedural - it's unacceptiable to not have this feature. Especially for such type of game.

Then go buy a game which has it.

Designing and getting exactly what you want without limitations sounds a bit easy, to me.  Perfect wings - go.  Perfect fuel tanks - go.  Perfect engines - go.  Auto-planning, go.  Autopilot, go.

All of these are features people call make-or-break.  I don't see what's left for me to do in such a game.

Edited by Corona688
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On 10/17/2020 at 6:16 PM, linuxgurugamer said:

If they put in everything that anyone feels should be “stock”, then one of two things will happen :

  1. Game will be years late and over budget
  2. Game will have bugs galore

Or:

       3.  Game will be on-time and mostly bug-free

Pick one.

Point №2 will be true in both cases, frankly.

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On 10/17/2020 at 7:49 PM, Corona688 said:

Then go buy a game which has it.

Designing and getting exactly what you want without limitations sounds a bit easy, to me.  Perfect wings - go.  Perfect fuel tanks - go.  Perfect engines - go.  Auto-planning, go.  Autopilot, go.

All of these are features people call make-or-break.  I don't see what's left for me to do in such a game.

I like designing things in SimpleRockets 2, and it has pretty much everything procedural. There’s a lot of freedom there and you can optimize things better than in KSP, but I wouldn’t say it’s easier, and certainly not that there isn’t anything to do.

It does have a totally different feel than KSP however, and I very much like the “space lego” approach; KSP wouldn’t be KSP if that’s lost. Even so I think some procedural parts wouldn’t hurt, such as tanks or wings, and I think it would be a big improvement if more parts would be combined into variants. As it is, there are so many similar parts that finding the right one can get tedious.

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Honestly, I don't want them included in the base game. Personally, I find joy in the challenge of making something that I consider 'looking good' from a limited set of parts.  I feel like it forces me to think creatively and use parts in creative ways.

Luckily for everyone here, the game is being designed from the ground of with mod support in mind. Not a shade of doubt you will be able to use procedural parts in KSP2 sooner rather than later.

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@Vegatoxi

 

Listen, the game can't have every feature and go down every path that people want it to. They have limited time and money and by definition it will mean longer development times and more bugs.  But you still haven't even gave a reason why procedural wings belong in KSP2, other than "I won't buy it". KSP2 will by definition be less buggy and more moddable, so mods will come sooner rather than later. And if you won't buy it, that's fine with me. You might as well spare yourself another 60 dollars.

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On 10/21/2020 at 8:09 AM, Brikoleur said:

It does have a totally different feel than KSP however, and I very much like the “space lego” approach; KSP wouldn’t be KSP if that’s lost. Even so I think some procedural parts wouldn’t hurt, such as tanks or wings, and I think it would be a big improvement if more parts would be combined into variants. As it is, there are so many similar parts that finding the right one can get tedious.

That is fair enough.  A lot of parts are repetition;  width A fuel tank size 1, 2, 3.  Width B fuel tank size 1, 2, 3.  If they were resizable within tech level limits perhaps...

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On 10/17/2020 at 6:49 PM, Corona688 said:

Designing and getting exactly what you want without limitations sounds a bit easy, to me.  Perfect wings - go.  Perfect fuel tanks - go.  Perfect engines - go.  Auto-planning, go.  Autopilot, go.

It's a bit more complicated than that.

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2 hours ago, Corona688 said:

That is fair enough.  A lot of parts are repetition;  width A fuel tank size 1, 2, 3.  Width B fuel tank size 1, 2, 3.  If they were resizable within tech level limits perhaps...

Yep, that's the kind of thing I had in mind. The objective would be to cut down on clutter, not to turn us into sculptors.

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16 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

KSP was made by inexperienced developers with no knowledge of game development.

KSP 2 is being developed by professional developers

You point that B9 devs(or dev?) more expepienced than whole SQUAD?

 

Yah... nice... ok...

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23 minutes ago, Vegatoxi said:

You point that B9 devs(or dev?) more expepienced than whole SQUAD?

 

Yah... nice... ok...

No, don't put words in my mount.

It's quite possible that the B9 developer does have more experience, I simply don't know.  What you are refusing to acknowledge is that KSP was written by inexperienced developers, and there is a lot of legacy code and technical debt which takes time to remove.  A lot has been done, there is more to do.

KSP 2 is a brand new codebase by very experienced developers, building on the knowledge of what was done in the original KSP.

 

On 10/16/2020 at 11:36 PM, Vegatoxi said:

New patch = everything is broken and you need to wait up to 6 month for mod patch. It's terrible.

This has gotten MUCH better, to the point that I was able to upgrade a game from 1.8.1 to 1.10.1 and only had two mods (out of 220) which needed updates.  The codebase is now stable, up until 1.8 they were still revamping the internals of the game

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19 hours ago, Vegatoxi said:

Explain this pls.

Procedural it's not the evolution of modular they're different design philosophies.

This whole thread is the equivalent of complaining because Lego is still doing legos instead of selling 3D printers.

KSP could use some procedural procedural features for some parts, but a full turn towards fully procedural parts would totally be against the design and the style of the game.

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10 minutes ago, Master39 said:

Procedural it's not the evolution of modular they're different design philosophies.

This whole thread is the equivalent of complaining because Lego is still doing legos instead of selling 3D printers.

KSP could use some procedural procedural features for some parts, but a full turn towards fully procedural parts would totally be against the design and the style of the game.

LEGO is scalable (in fact it's procedural if this can be adressed to real world). KSP wings not.

Edited by Vegatoxi
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5 hours ago, probe137 said:

So? If you played KSP2 for some of it's best features, may I ask you how much time will you spend in an atmosphere, where wings are needed? (Fun fact: The Saturn V can orbit itself without it's fins)

Wait wait wait.

We can argue all day long about Modular VS Procedural and even about the fact that KSP1 has 3 sets of plane parts and 4 parts for bases and stations, but not about the usefulness of plane parts and wings.

In the Kerbolar System alone we have 4 potential destinations for planes, Kerbin, Laythe, Duna and Eve (especially Eve with breaking ground propellers), and Nate mentioned a planet that will be a "spaceplane paradise", wings are needed.

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On 10/23/2020 at 7:23 PM, probe137 said:

So? If you played KSP2 for some of it's best features, may I ask you how much time will you spend in an atmosphere, where wings are needed? (Fun fact: The Saturn V can orbit itself without it's fins)

Spaceplanes are a thing

 

For me, really I just want some decent aerodynamics. Even with FAR, it's still kind of a joke (high aspect ratio wings stalling at alpha > 40°, really?). Also preferably with some way to influence what airfoil the wing uses, even SimplePlanes has an option for it

Edited by Guest
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I firmly believe the original KSP has been kept alive mainly because of the incredibly dedicated modding community. I guarantee you, if procedural wings aren't a native feature of KSP 2, it will be a mod within a month of release. That is, if mods are still supported.

On 10/23/2020 at 5:23 PM, probe137 said:

So? If you played KSP2 for some of it's best features, may I ask you how much time will you spend in an atmosphere, where wings are needed? (Fun fact: The Saturn V can orbit itself without it's fins)

Personally, I've only left Kerbin's atmosphere fewer than 50 times and most of those were on accident during my airplane tests. I spent the vast majority of my 250 hours in atmosphere.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/27/2020 at 3:19 PM, Kernel Kraken said:

That is, if mods are still supported.

Won't make a difference, unless KSP2 absolutely tanks, scaring away most mod devs. KSP2 is being developed under Unity. There are ways to inject mods into Unity games* even if devs don't support it. You might need to run it with a mod launcher if Intercept decides not to support them natively, but there will be mods with or without the help from Intercept.

Adding new components to a Unity game in memory is a solved problem, so a mod loader can be written. There are tools that will extract game's assets, so you'll have access to all of the stock part models and textures to use as a starting point for any new parts. All of the Unity API is available, so you can just write a part script completely from scratch. What can be tricky is getting access to some of the game-specific APIs, like fuel, action groups, control inputs, etc. But it might be possible to simply decompile the game and see how existing parts work. KSP was obfuscated but with an off-the-shelf solution, so there was a tool for disobfuscating the code, and decompiled C# retains all but local variable names, so KSP source code was pretty easy to navigate. Time will tell if KSP2 will be in the same boat.

Case-in-point, with or without decompiled code, procedural wings are absolutely doable. Intercept would have to invest considerable resources into making it impossible, which I can't imagine they could spare even if they decided, for some strange reason, that they don't want to have mods anymore.

 

* Technically, any game is modable, but deciphering the inner-workings of an engine you're not familiar with is a lot of work. Take a look at history of GTA modding for a good example. Modern community-built tools make it pretty easy, but people had to make these tools completely from scratch, deciphering game's archive system, resource management, and hooking into game's script engine.

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