Getting Rich Off The Solar System... By What?

[Spacescifi]

Suppose RIGHT NOW several companies had access to 1g constant acceleration spacecraft without a need to refuel.

Nothing else has changed about modern tech, as the 1g spaceships are on loan from someone generous 

Also each spacecraft  has the ability to dive deep into Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus and survive, and even come back out again.

 

What world's resources would give the biggest profit return on bringing the resource back to Earth?

Or would space tourism be a better bet?

Supposing you wanted to 'bury' the competition underneath billions of dollars you earn from space ventures?

My guess? Probably one of the gas giants would reap the most profits via rare resources.

They may have heaps of diamonds near their cores.

 

 

 

What do you think?

Edited August 13, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Bill Phil]

The best bet would be to create a new economy in space, perhaps by creating space settlements, and then be part of the class which benefits the most from the economic driving forces.

Bringing resources back to Earth isn't really that profitable and is a short term way to make quick cash. But long term you need another source of money flow. Because you need to still process these resources the profit margins might be larger than Earth based extraction but not by a tremendous amount. Unless "our benefactors" provide us with systems to process these resources.

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

The best bet would be to create a new economy in space, perhaps by creating space settlements, and then be part of the class which benefits the most from the economic driving forces.

Bringing resources back to Earth isn't really that profitable and is a short term way to make quick cash. But long term you need another source of money flow. Because you need to still process these resources the profit margins might be larger than Earth based extraction but not by a tremendous amount. Unless "our benefactors" provide us with systems to process these resources.

Come now...are you saying there is NOTHING special the other planets have in abundance that we do not?

And futuristic processing equipment is not given.

Whichever company makes the MOST profits in 25 years will be allowed to keep their ships.

The others will be returned to the benefactors... who place a high value on earning profits. They only want to see who on Earth is worthy of their technology.

Thus the test.

And yes this a totally contrived tale for the sake of discussion.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Bill Phil]

27 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Come now...are you saying there is NOTHING special the other planets have in abundance that we do not?

And futuristic processing equipment is not given.

Whichever company makes the MOST profits in a decade will be allowed to keep their ships.

The others will be returned to the benefactors... who place a high value on earning profits. They only want to see who on Earth is worthy of their technology.

Thus the test.

And yes this a totally contrived tale for the sake of discussion.

Production for profit is a mode of production that necessitates exactly that - production. Not just acquisition of natural resources. Without production, and markets, profit is not really possible.

The thing is it will be easier, on a timetable of ten years, to get those resources on Earth. Because you still need large amounts of capital even if you have the spaceships to go anywhere in the solar system. So you might as well just let the ships sit in a warehouse and invest in highly profitable Earth based enterprises. Maybe fly a few ships to keep up appearances. 

It isn't an issue of other planets, moons, or asteroids having resources in abundance. It's that we also have those resources in abundance and we already have the infrastructure to process them here. So there's no reason to go to space for resources. The only real things worth doing in space are producing things that benefit from the free fall environment, like crystals and some other materials. Indeed, establishing a space-based industry would likely be the most profitable thing that can be done. Producing satellites, probes, telescopes, space vehicles, and other products would be the only really profitable business. Space tourism may work out fairly well too, though, if the operating costs are extremely low. But you'd also need spacesuits and stuff. 

Basically, these benefactors need to have a much larger timetable if they want to really gauge who will make the most profit. Something around 25 years or longer. 

[Spacescifi]

6 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

Production for profit is a mode of production that necessitates exactly that - production. Not just acquisition of natural resources. Without production, and markets, profit is not really possible.

The thing is it will be easier, on a timetable of ten years, to get those resources on Earth. Because you still need large amounts of capital even if you have the spaceships to go anywhere in the solar system. So you might as well just let the ships sit in a warehouse and invest in highly profitable Earth based enterprises. Maybe fly a few ships to keep up appearances. 

It isn't an issue of other planets, moons, or asteroids having resources in abundance. It's that we also have those resources in abundance and we already have the infrastructure to process them here. So there's no reason to go to space for resources. The only real things worth doing in space are producing things that benefit from the free fall environment, like crystals and some other materials. Indeed, establishing a space-based industry would likely be the most profitable thing that can be done. Producing satellites, probes, telescopes, space vehicles, and other products would be the only really profitable business. Space tourism may work out fairly well too, though, if the operating costs are extremely low. But you'd also need spacesuits and stuff. 

Basically, these benefactors need to have a much larger timetable if they want to really gauge who will make the most profit. Something around 25 years or longer. 

OK.... 25 years it is.

[StrandedonEarth]

1g acceleration wouldn't get you out of the gravity wells of the giant planets, which is the biggest hurdle in acquiring resources from other planets. Much easier to return resources from asteroids. But if you return large quantities of rare resources and dump them on the Terran market, the prices would plummet, cutting into or destroying any profit.

My strategy would rely on that. Platinum and other platinum group metals are extremely useful catalysts for many industrial processes, but are too expensive for widespread use. For instance, much research has gone into reducing the amount of platinum needed for fuel cells. I would deliberately crash the price of platinum, with a production line ready to crank out consumer fuel cells and other devices that could make use of abundant, cheap platinum, and profit that way.

[Bill Phil]

8 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

1g acceleration wouldn't get you out of the gravity wells of the giant planets, which is the biggest hurdle in acquiring resources from other planets. Much easier to return resources from asteroids. But if you return large quantities of rare resources and dump them on the Terran market, the prices would plummet, cutting into or destroying any profit.

My strategy would rely on that. Platinum and other platinum group metals are extremely useful catalysts for many industrial processes, but are too expensive for widespread use. For instance, much research has gone into reducing the amount of platinum needed for fuel cells. I would deliberately crash the price of platinum, with a production line ready to crank out consumer fuel cells and other devices that could make use of abundant, cheap platinum, and profit that way.

Gold and other rare metals may have similar uses. For example hohlraums for IC fusion power use gold and other high Z materials... abundant gold could lower the price of fusion power.

But other materials could be used for the hohlraum too.

[SOXBLOX]

There really isn't an economic reason for going to space. If there was profit to be made in space, governments would be regulating space a lot more.  

Now, on the serious side of things, modern economies don't run on raw materials. These are usually dirt cheap. The important step is turning raw materials into finished products. (Think about how much the materials in a cell phone cost compared to the phone itself.) This requires work, which people are paid for, and work needs energy. So you should use space energy to drive economic processes. Using a limited number of ships to haul raw materials is unlikely to be efficient, so use them for ferrying workers and prefab habitats. Use good ol' chemfuel rockets for hauling stuff. Then, set up orbital solar arrays, huge fission reactors on the moon, stuff like that to take advantage of the lack of environmental protection agencies. Beam energy to Terra, manufacture stuff in space, and supply your worker colonists with water and stuff. Over 25-50 years, you could profit doing this.

Of course, of you're feeling Machiavellian, instigate a nuclear war on Earth. Then, many people will pay you to leave Earth and bring supplies to them from orbital farms. This is a...drastic...solution, though.

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said:

1g acceleration wouldn't get you out of the gravity wells of the giant planets, which is the biggest hurdle in acquiring resources from other planets. Much easier to return resources from asteroids. But if you return large quantities of rare resources and dump them on the Terran market, the prices would plummet, cutting into or destroying any profit.

My strategy would rely on that. Platinum and other platinum group metals are extremely useful catalysts for many industrial processes, but are too expensive for widespread use. For instance, much research has gone into reducing the amount of platinum needed for fuel cells. I would deliberately crash the price of platinum, with a production line ready to crank out consumer fuel cells and other devices that could make use of abundant, cheap platinum, and profit that way.

 

I never said they could not go higher than 1g. 

That's just the optimal acceleration for human flight.

The fact that they can dive into Jupiter and make it out under their own power implies they can go higher than 1g.

The engines appear to be reactionless, and at max thrust can accelerate a thousand kilograms at 500g indefinitely.

The more mass brought on lowers the thrust.

The spaceship is only heavy enough that it can thrust along at max at 4g fully loaded with cargo max.

Even higher if it reduces mass by dumping cargo going max, or throttle down to 1g.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Superfluous J]

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Suppose RIGHT NOW several companies had access to 1g constant acceleration spacecraft without a need to refuel.

What world's resources would give the biggest profit return on bringing the resource back to Earth?

Forget getting resources from elsewhere. I'd use those engines to boil water and solve all of our power problems for free!

[DDE]

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

are you saying there is NOTHING special the other planets have in abundance that we do not?

The basic gist is that no, because it's unlikely that the composition of other planets is much different from that of ours, there likely wouldn't be an overwhelming advantage in this or that material.

You can eke out a profit through resource depletion - as the easily available sites are exhausted, ever costlier options become acceptable, a mechanic that would apply on the scale of planets. The easy bets are rare earths and certain platinoids. But, especially in the latter, your olanet miners would have to compete against asteroid miners.

[Spacescifi]

21 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

Forget getting resources from elsewhere. I'd use those engines to boil water and solve all of our power problems for free!

 

That certainly is an option I guess, if you used the engines to turn a turbine, since they do not generate a great amount of heat (about the same as the lights in your house), but strangely generate a lot of thrust.

Assuming you win the challenge then what?

It's ironic I guess... you killed a scifi trope.

People wanna go to space... but there is no economic need to do so... well... not totally true.

If you don't wanna deal with the EPA space is your best friend... cause it is already toxic.

Who cares if you make Mars even MORE inhabitable than it already is?

So long you don't blow it up or shift orbits that is.

That leaves the only legitimate reasons for human spaceflight in scifi for luxury space cruises and colonization of Earth worlds should they exist.

You really do not need to worry about a space economy UNLESS you are building massive space habitats that are dependent on them.

Since why go ALL the way back to homeworld for resources when Jupiter has a ton of moons to mine?

Edited August 13, 2020 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

5 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

1g constant acceleration spacecraft without a need to refuel.

Forget the Jupiter, use it as a cargo plane here.

3 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

There really isn't an economic reason for going to space. If there was profit to be made in space, governments would be regulating space a lot more.

The "noone's space" treaty officially declares the space to be a wasteland.

***

We should force the efforts in searching alien derelict ships on other celestial bodies.
There should be some of them, they had >4 bln years to crash.

Edited August 13, 2020 by kerbiloid

[DDE]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

It's ironic I guess... you killed a scifi trope.

It was dead when we got here.

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

Since why go ALL the way back to homeworld for resources when Jupiter has a ton of moons to mine?

Since all of your processing is back home. Ideally you'd combine, say, a casing made from space plastic, and chips shipped from Earth. Maybe a bad example given certain applications of zero-G manufacturing.

[kerbiloid]

The Jupiter moons are almost the most useless place to mine anything.

Just water ice or empty rocks inside radiation belts.

***

Instead of all that spacing-schmacing it's more useful to build nanites to extract trace amounts of platinoids from the underlying terrestrial rocks right here.

Edited August 13, 2020 by kerbiloid

[hms_warrior]

Go the other way. Instead of bringing stuff home, use your free Spaceships as Trash haulers. Dump Radioactive Waste and such into the sun. And be paid for it of course. Governments spend billions waterproving old salt mines etc. to store radioactive waste... 

Edited August 13, 2020 by hms_warrior

[kerbiloid]

Any "waste" is actually a misplaced "resource".

[Hannu2]

11 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Suppose RIGHT NOW several companies had access to 1g constant acceleration spacecraft without a need to refuel.

Nothing else has changed about modern tech, as the 1g spaceships are on loan from someone generous 

Also each spacecraft  has the ability to dive deep into Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus and survive, and even come back out again.

 

What world's resources would give the biggest profit return on bringing the resource back to Earth?

Or would space tourism be a better bet?

Supposing you wanted to 'bury' the competition underneath billions of dollars you earn from space ventures?

My guess? Probably one of the gas giants would reap the most profits via rare resources.

They may have heaps of diamonds near their cores.

 

I think the most valuable things would still be metal asteroids. They are rich in rare metals and if they were able to be transported to Earth they would drop prices and availability and give new possibilities to utilize them in better products. Gas planets are made from hydrogen and helium which would be very impractical to transport in industrial quantities.

Possibilities would depend on how large those spaceships could be. Building refineries and factories in space would reduce pollution problems on Earth very much and give possibilities to better life for most people.

[Scotius]

One of the most interesting ideas of utilizing space for profit i've ever read, was from a piece of fanfiction Author proposed to turn Titan into... biggest server slash supercomputer farm in Solar System The selling point was the rare combination of atmosphere and cold. With access to a lot of very cold gases to dump heat into, it was possible to operate complexes the size of nations and enough reactors to power everything. Of course humans in that fic had access to FTL communication methods - so all this computing power could be used in real time, across the system.

[kerbiloid]

Finally, a viable idea.

The only useful thing we can get from the Solar System is bitcoin mining on Titan.

[CFYL]

About space economy.

In the near(?) future, it seems that one viable option is to get rid of earth-polluting industries, to save the earth, at least to some extent. Some industries need high G-force, and now we make use of centrifugal force. That could reach 10000+Gs in most normal machines(that, common university labs use), given that you just put in a small amount of material. Well, Jupiter surface(I mean the surface that we measure Jupiter’s radius with) g is not that high, but some manufacturers may benefit from that. Don’t ask how to take something into orbit from Jupiter, we could do it. Other industries can also benefit from varying Gravity, Temperature(not necessarily though), and Pressure(Venus or Jupiter core) conditions. What industries need most is, of course, a controllable G-force.

I also have some comments of the far future, but not seem to match very well with this thread.

Spoiler

 

In the (very) far future, suppose that specific impulse of engines is so high that even with little fuel, extremely high ΔV can be reached, at a considerably high TWR. That’s some ultimate space travel plans, excluding warp drives. There’s actually not much difference, between going to Saturn from Earth, and today’s going to US from China(by plane, not ship). So, the solar system is a whole, but industries would probably have changed a lot, if they still exist. So, just consider Nike putting its factories in India, and we should be able to better understand what space of that time is about. IMO, nowadays is like when humans were first exiting Africa to spread over continents, the near future is when Ancient Greece, Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, China, Maya, Inca and the like first formed. I mean, why go back to the Earth when you have Mars, Deimos and Phobos? There will be some connections between planets but few, at least we do know we aren’t alone in the solar system. (That is, if we weren’t to forget all about it.) While the far future, the whole solar system could be linked pretty like how the Earth is liked together now. For the limit of light speed... No offense to the greatest modern scientists but, just a couple of centuries ago, people believed that trains can’t go faster than 200 km/h, or passengers would die of a lack of breathe-able air. According to the most avant-garde scientific calculations, of that time. Even now, there seem to be some beliefs against scientific terms. I don’t mean religion, that is a different thing. Rather, it’s like how some Britons believed that 5G signal towers could spread coronavirus. (No, no offense, just an example as every country tend to have some “ridiculous” believers)

With blessings to the future.

 

 

[StrandedonEarth]

I suppose another market for the beginnings of space mining would be selling commemorative coins and other keepsakes made from the first batch of space-mined resources brought back dirtside. 

Until some shyster tries to sell terrestrial aluminum as Lunar aluminum (alunarnum?). Or space-platinum “snake oil”

[kerbiloid]

Platinoids, rare-earth metals, actinoids...

They are "heavier" than iron. They aren't products of regular fusion synthesis. At least, most of them.

In other words, the humans wish to get into space to collect the scattered remains of parental supernovas, dissolved in random slag wastes.

Like the stupid hens pick pieces of lime, or the stupid crocodiles swallowing stones, or the "clever" dogs swallowing various wastes on the street,
the high primates feel irresistible desire to dig into a heap of space junk and absorb the most unusual components from it.

So, conclusions.

1. The force pulling humans to the star exists, it is real, instinctive, and natural.

2. We are kinda self-learning colonies of bacteries extracting particular elements from minerals. The human history is all about this.

3. We are a natural agent to provide the chemical exchange between separated lythospheres.

Four billion years passed, the principle stays the same.

Edited August 13, 2020 by kerbiloid

[mrfox]

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/mining.php#bottleneck

TL;DR - Phosphorus from mars

[SOXBLOX]

Well, only for colonies in the system where they don't have phosphorus. Not for trade with Earth. No need for coals to Newcastle.