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[1.12.x] Waterfall - a framework for continuous, mesh-driven engine effects (Aug 2)


Nertea

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On 1/26/2021 at 9:02 AM, JeeF said:

@Al2Me6
Thanks for sharing the code. A few questions:

1) How do I implement this code? Is there a tutorial somewhere?
2) Do I need to add the code manually for each individual engine?
3) I use a few other mods that adds engines, like SSTU. Do I need to manually add for those as well?
4) How about jet engines?

  1. @Brigadier covered the MM part, but these patches do take some caution.
  2. You need to add the Waterfall patch as usual, for each engine that you modify. The other patch (the one modifying MODEL_MULTI_SHURIKEN_PERSIST) is what removes the RealPlume plume but preserves the sound effect. You only need one copy of this patch (note that it applies to all ROEngines with a ModuleWaterfallFX), but in that patch you need to include all the relevant RealPlume plume effects - you can find those by inspecting the ROEngines RealPlume patches (https://github.com/KSP-RO/ROEngines/tree/master/GameData/ROEngines/RealPlume) and also what the plume types are transformed to (https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/tree/master/GameData/RealismOverhaul/RealPlume_Configs/000_Generic_Plume_Templates). Checking the ModuleManager cache is also helpful.
  3. I have no clue how SSTU engine clustering would interact with Waterfall, but you can try... I have never had anything good come out of messing with SSTU plumes though.
  4. Sorry, I have no idea -- I don't make planes. Though, I would imagine that they work.
Edited by Al2Me6
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On 1/29/2021 at 4:32 AM, Nertea said:

Generically, glowing panels seem best accomplished with simple emissive materials on the part. Making 'sheaths' that glow around panels is going to run into some issues with the shaders that are used here. 

One big advantage of Waterfall is able to add controllers, linked to throttles and stuff, as well as effects related it. Using a seperate model, it is no more than a static panel, and I'm unable to do anything with it.

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On 10/4/2020 at 12:56 AM, Nertea said:

I'd make some statement about using beautiful engine plumes with questionable models but you do you.

The real "why" is that this is a framework mod. Anyone can use it to create effects or assign bundled effect templates to engines. When you ask why someone hasn't done that, well, you're basically doing the same thing as dropping into Add On Discussion and requesting a mod.

As I use Restock, I made a project to assign those configs. I assume someone will go and do that for stock eventually, but it won't be me.

I should also point out that fundamentally there are likely issues with using the plumes with stock engines. They won't look as good, because the effects depend on well-crafted emissive maps, many stock models lack this.

 

 

Alright, sorry for not responding sooner. (Although I doubt you were waiting on my response ;-) )
I decided to try and make a set of configs for as many of the stock engines as I can, based on your WaterfallRestock config files.
After some digging I managed to get it to work for the Reliant engine. I had Issues where it would still display the original Squad particle effects. Then I looked into the Restock mod's configs, and saw that you deleted some fx keys there before adding your own EFFECTS{} . So basically I copied that part from the Restock configs, and it all works now. Now for all of the other engines... *starts sweating nervously*Schermopname_11.png

Edited by Knight of St John
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4 hours ago, Knight of St John said:

Alright, sorry for not responding sooner. (Although I doubt you were waiting on my response ;-) )
I decided to try and make a set of configs for as many of the stock engines as I can, based on your WaterfallRestock config files.
After some digging I managed to get it to work for the Reliant engine. I had Issues where it would still display the original Squad particle effects. Then I looked into the Restock mod's configs, and saw that you deleted some fx keys there before adding your own EFFECTS{} . So basically I copied that part from the Restock configs, and it all works now. Now for all of the other engines... *starts sweating nervously*

So I was able to create Waterfall configs for most of the stock engines that also had WaterfallRestock configs:
Schermopname_14.png

However, the Poodle and Twin-Boar (both have 2 nozzles) Somehow don't work. The Waterfall effect doesn't show, even though it should. A template is applied in the editor and everything.
Aside from that, I also noticed that the "waterfall-hydrolox-rs25-1" template gives you this red plume for the Mammoth and Vector engines, but when viewed straight down the engine bell, the plume almost vanishes. Is this normal, and could it be made more visible in that orientation too?
unknown.png

Edited by Knight of St John
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On 2/1/2021 at 11:07 PM, Knight of St John said:

So I was able to create Waterfall configs for most of the stock engines that also had WaterfallRestock configs:
However, the Poodle and Twin-Boar (both have 2 nozzles) Somehow don't work. The Waterfall effect doesn't show, even though it should. A template is applied in the editor and everything.
Aside from that, I also noticed that the "waterfall-hydrolox-rs25-1" template gives you this red plume for the Mammoth and Vector engines, but when viewed straight down the engine bell, the plume almost vanishes. Is this normal, and could it be made more visible in that orientation too?
 

Sorry for posting here so often. But I wanted to let you all know I kind of figured out how to work with this mod.
The visibility issue of the plumes when viewed from above are due to the plane meshes that were not bright enough. I still feel like those plane meshes are a bad solution for this, since it kinda looks weird sometimes.
But anyways... It's still ten billion times better than the prefab particles :-)
And I was able to make this rs25 engine plume very realistic:

rs25plume.gif

I'm continuing the work on the other engines too. I've completed most of them though. I think I'll be releasing the final config as a mod... maybe?

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@Knight of St John, your plumes are looking fantastic! that RS25 plume is gorgeous. You wouldn't want to have a pass at ROEngines & SPEngines and their plumes, would ya? :$ I play with RSS and Realism Overhaul and I've been craving these Waterfall plumes for RO Engines for too long now! :$:$

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@Knight of St John Wow, nice! I was hoping someone was going to make stock configs for this mod. Any reason why you gave the Vector that glow on the nozzle? The real RS-25 has a regeneratively cooled nozzle, so it doesn't glow on the outside like that.

Edit: Are you planning to make a plume for the Poodle's single-engine variant as well?

Edited by RealKerbal3x
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8 hours ago, Knight of St John said:

Sorry for posting here so often. But I wanted to let you all know I kind of figured out how to work with this mod.
The visibility issue of the plumes when viewed from above are due to the plane meshes that were not bright enough. I still feel like those plane meshes are a bad solution for this, since it kinda looks weird sometimes.
But anyways... It's still ten billion times better than the prefab particles :-)
And I was able to make this rs25 engine plume very realistic:

rs25plume.gif

I'm continuing the work on the other engines too. I've completed most of them though. I think I'll be releasing the final config as a mod... maybe?

Dang, I want that RS25 plume for my Restock vector! I'll have to patch it in once you release your configs.

And don't be sorry for posting here often. It's cool to hear about your progress and the pictures make for some lovely eye candy.

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2 hours ago, hypervelocity said:

@Knight of St John, your plumes are looking fantastic! that RS25 plume is gorgeous. You wouldn't want to have a pass at ROEngines & SPEngines and their plumes, would ya? :$ I play with RSS and Realism Overhaul and I've been craving these Waterfall plumes for RO Engines for too long now! :$:$

Hmm. It's not that hard to use existing templates for other engines. The mod allows you to use the same plumes for different engines and scale/move them so they match the nozzle size and position. So in theory, adding plumes to the RO engines for instance isn't too labor-intensive, but creating all new ones to be 100% accurate to real life is probably too much effort for me. So we'll see, but don't get your hopes up.

 

1 hour ago, RealKerbal3x said:

@Knight of St John Wow, nice! I was hoping someone was going to make stock configs for this mod. Any reason why you gave the Vector that glow on the nozzle? The real RS-25 has a regeneratively cooled nozzle, so it doesn't glow on the outside like that.

Edit: Are you planning to make a plume for the Poodle's single-engine variant as well?

The nozzle glows that much because the engine is super overheated. that's the infinite fuel hack from the F12 debug menu doing that. This normally doesn't happen.
I haven't made any plumes for engine variants yet. I'll still have to see if I get that figured out or not.
 

 

1 hour ago, RyanRising said:

Dang, I want that RS25 plume for my Restock vector! I'll have to patch it in once you release your configs.

And don't be sorry for posting here often. It's cool to hear about your progress and the pictures make for some lovely eye candy.

feel free to copy the config. I guess it would be nice to mention somewhere in the notes that you got it from me though ;-)

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11 minutes ago, Zorg said:

GIF_04-02-2021_19-59-11.gif

Little preview of Alcolox and Hydyne plumes being developed for Bluedog Design Bureau (for Redstone).

They will also be submitted to Waterfall itself later so anyone can use them.

Very nice. I like your outer mach arches better than mine even. The shape is a bit better I feel. Also: how did you do the diamonds? I used the existing shock diamond from the rs25 and modified it into the diamond shape, but this looks different. Btw: you can use some random perlin noise controllers to make the position and size of the diamonds wiggle a bit, so the flame looks more dynamic.

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Just now, Knight of St John said:

andom perlin noise controllers to make the position and size of the diamonds wiggle a bit

Thanks for the tip, I'll give that a go.

1 minute ago, Knight of St John said:

Very nice. I like your outer mach arches better than mine even. The shape is a bit better I feel. Also: how did you do the diamonds?

Thanks! A lot of the initial design work for this was done by @DylanSemrau for my RS68 model though I've been adding to and modifying the template since his first draft. Most of the effects here are using the the dynamic shader.

I have an experimental branch for BDB waterfall development where I'm maintaining the configs if you would like to take a closer look. 

https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/tree/waterfall-experimental/Gamedata/Bluedog_DB/Compatibility/WaterfallFX

 

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41 minutes ago, Zorg said:

I have an experimental branch for BDB waterfall development where I'm maintaining the configs if you would like to take a closer look. 

Oh this is actually very helpful. I just looked into your rs-68 config. You use a lot of simple "cilinder" effect models i see, and almost no complex or simple plume models with plane meshes.
And when you do use the plane meshes, you keep them very subtle and low brightness.

I'm new to all of this so I honestly have no clue what the different shaders do, I just copy other peoples combinations. I suspect the type of shader has to do with the angle the camera is pointing and how visible they are at what angle? and maybe they also influence how 2 meshes overlap?  Anyways, I still have to figure out a way how to make my plumes look decent from looking straight down on them, and the plane meshes are not doing that for me. 

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Just now, Knight of St John said:

Oh this is actually very helpful. I just looked into your rs-68 config. You use a lot of simple "cilinder" effect models i see, and almost no complex or simple plume models with plane meshes.
And when you do use the plane meshes, you keep them very subtle and low brightness.

I'm new to all of this so I honestly have no clue what the different shaders do, I just copy other peoples combinations. I suspect the type of shader has to do with the angle the camera is pointing and how visible they are at what angle? and maybe they also influence how 2 meshes overlap?  Anyways, I still have to figure out a way how to make my plumes look decent from looking straight down on them, and the plane meshes are not doing that for me. 

So the dynamic shader only works on the simple cylinder iirc. If you want to use any of the other meshes you have to use the other shaders. The dynamic shader actually modifies the shape of the mesh using shader parameters. I dont understand the technicalities behind it all tbh. 

Unlike the regular shaders though, withh the dynamic shader and simple cylinder there is no plane mesh but you get to see the effects nicely at more angles without the fresnel trickery between the cylinder and plane you usually have to do. One downside is looked at straight from behind you just get a hole but a nice inner glow emissive on the engine model (which you dont get on stock engines) works nicely to disguise that.  Also you can use another effect with a regular shader and plane mesh if you need to overlaid on top for that reason (or even a small particle effect just to fill up engine bell exit)

The dynamic shader is very effective at smoothing out the ends  using the fade in/fade out and falloff parameters so you can have effects positioned high up within the plume without you seeing the ends of the mesh.

I think we're all trying to learn how to get the best out of this frame work, looking at other peoples experiments has taught me a lot for sure.

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On 2/1/2021 at 2:07 PM, Knight of St John said:

So I was able to create Waterfall configs for most of the stock engines that also had WaterfallRestock configs:
Schermopname_14.png

However, the Poodle and Twin-Boar (both have 2 nozzles) Somehow don't work. The Waterfall effect doesn't show, even though it should. A template is applied in the editor and everything.
Aside from that, I also noticed that the "waterfall-hydrolox-rs25-1" template gives you this red plume for the Mammoth and Vector engines, but when viewed straight down the engine bell, the plume almost vanishes. Is this normal, and could it be made more visible in that orientation too?
unknown.png

If you are juts copying what is going on with the Restock patch, make sure you adjust the overrideParentTransform field. Because the restock Poodle for example has 4 nozzles it uses custom transforms to place the effects. You will need a different override (probably just thrustTransform) for the stock one. 

TEMPLATE
    {
      // This is the name of the template to use
      templateName = waterfall-kerolox-upper-1
      // This field allows you to override the parentTransform name in the EFFECTS contained in the template
      overrideParentTransform = fxTransformCore
      position = 0,-0.1,0
rotation = 0, 0, 0
scale = 2, 1.3, 2
    }
13 hours ago, Knight of St John said:

rs25plume.gif

I'm continuing the work on the other engines too. I've completed most of them though. I think I'll be releasing the final config as a mod... maybe?

Cool! If you make an effect that is better than the ones added as templates please feel free to add it to the base mod (ofc credited). The stuff I made I did very fast and people spending time on it will get better results. 

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3 hours ago, Knight of St John said:

feel free to copy the config. I guess it would be nice to mention somewhere in the notes that you got it from me though ;-)

Yeah, of course! I'm not going to be publishing it anywhere, though. Certainly don't to pass your work off as my own!

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34 minutes ago, Nertea said:

If you are juts copying what is going on with the Restock patch, make sure you adjust the overrideParentTransform field. Because the restock Poodle for example has 4 nozzles it uses custom transforms to place the effects. You will need a different override (probably just thrustTransform) for the stock one. 

Ah! so that's what that does lol. Okay I suspected as much. I got the poodle working and didn't exactly know how i did it, so it's probably that one of my attempts included overriding that.

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On a slightly different note: I've noticed that there are darker edges along the sides of the plumes.
unknown.png

Does this have anything to do with the color blending procedure that is used? Is this a unity thing, or can you patch that inside your mod?
Don't laugh at me, but this is a minute physics video that explains what this is I think: 

 

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8 hours ago, Knight of St John said:

On a slightly different note: I've noticed that there are darker edges along the sides of the plumes.
unknown.png

Does this have anything to do with the color blending procedure that is used? Is this a unity thing, or can you patch that inside your mod?
Don't laugh at me, but this is a minute physics video that explains what this is I think:

 

If I understand you right, not without making KSP use linear color space instead of the defaults.

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So I've been working on the rapier closed cycle Methalox plume:
unknown.png

Which turned out well i think.
However In the vacuum plume, I get these poorly color-discretized concentric circles:
unknown.png

I hope you understand what i mean. The plane mesh colors are heavily discrete here, and aren't varying smoothly.
Does anyone know how to manage this? Does it have anything to do with the brightness settings in combination with the color settings?
Adjusting the falloff makes it smaller of course, but there are still those color rings.

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First of all, amazing work on this mod, it's beautiful. Now a bug report though:

Opening the mod's panel in the flight scene without having a waterfall-affected engine on the focused craft creates mixed NRE and ArgumentException spam and heavy performance degradation, showing only an empty panel, until it  is closed. This seems to be related to what was reported here:

KSP Ver.: 1-11-1-3066 64-bit from GOG

OS: Manjaro Linux 20.2.1

Mods (from CKAN): ModuleManager 4.1.4.0, Waterfall 0.4.1.0

How to reproduce:

  1. Create and launch a ship without engines, or with engines that aren't affected by Waterfall.
  2. Click on the Waterfall mod button to open the mod's panel.
  3. Result:
    Spoiler

    VjBXYv6.png

Log file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7h0vo71t3ufg9ck/BugReport-Waterfall-0-4-1-0-Player.log?dl=0

The mod seems to work fine otherwise.

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10 hours ago, Knight of St John said:

So I've been working on the rapier closed cycle Methalox plume:
unknown.png

Which turned out well i think.
However In the vacuum plume, I get these poorly color-discretized concentric circles:
unknown.png

I hope you understand what i mean. The plane mesh colors are heavily discrete here, and aren't varying smoothly.
Does anyone know how to manage this? Does it have anything to do with the brightness settings in combination with the color settings?
Adjusting the falloff makes it smaller of course, but there are still those color rings.

It's a color space blending artifact with stacking multiple plumes.

8 hours ago, Qyst said:

First of all, amazing work on this mod, it's beautiful. Now a bug report though:

Opening the mod's panel in the flight scene without having a waterfall-affected engine on the focused craft creates mixed NRE and ArgumentException spam and heavy performance degradation, showing only an empty panel, until it  is closed. This seems to be related to what was reported here:

KSP Ver.: 1-11-1-3066 64-bit from GOG

OS: Manjaro Linux 20.2.1

Mods (from CKAN): ModuleManager 4.1.4.0, Waterfall 0.4.1.0

How to reproduce:

  1. Create and launch a ship without engines, or with engines that aren't affected by Waterfall.
  2. Click on the Waterfall mod button to open the mod's panel.
  3. Result:
      Reveal hidden contents

    VjBXYv6.png

Log file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7h0vo71t3ufg9ck/BugReport-Waterfall-0-4-1-0-Player.log?dl=0

The mod seems to work fine otherwise.

Well, I am aware but I'm not really inclined to spend time fixing that, you should only be enabling the editor and using it if you're editing or making a plume...

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