Jump to content
  • 0

Mun Fly-By


Question

I am at the stage in my career game where I get a contract to do a Mun fly-by, and this coincides with the fact that I'm actually ready, from a player perspective (and not necessarily a Kerbal perspective) to actually do a Mun fly-by.  However, I'm running into a couple of problems, and I have come here not to chew bubble gum and kick butt, but instead to ask for some help.  The issues I'm seeing:

  1. I am limited to 30 parts in the VAB, and I only have 192k in funds.  So I cannot upgrade the VAB to accommodate enough parts for this Mun landing tutorial (I built out the rocket, eliminating the landing gear, batteries, and the service bay, and that gets me down to 43 parts).  I cannot find another decent tutorial on how to build a rocket designed for a Mun fly-by, although I have seen at least one other one about building a rocket in general.  But that one doesn't really go into what is needed on an early-career rocket to do a fly-by of the Mun.
  2. I created a save game for being able to test things out so that it doesn't impact my actual career game, and I "cheated" to give myself enough funds to upgrade the VAB and build/launch the rocket I mentioned above.  Interestingly enough, it has enough power to get to an Ap that would intersect with the Mun's orbit...on Year 1, Day 6, Hour 4, Minute 48.  That's from the default launchpad, and I have not opened the settings to allow for the other sites (and I'm not sure I will).  The rocket designed in the tutorial above doesn't have enough juice in it to get to the appropriate Ap and to the appropriate spot to do a fly-by with the Mun in its current position, so I'm stuck either fast-forwarding an entire year before launch, or finding a tutorial on how to do this regardless of Mun position relative to Kerbin.  I saw a couple of tutorials about landing on the Mun (Early Career Mun Landing and How to Land on the Mun), but both of them are more focused about landing than they are about actually getting there.  Lot of good information in them, but not really what I need.

So, I'm at a point where I need to ask for help from the Community.  Are there any tutorials related directly to the 2 above things I'm asking about?  I need one on how to build an early-career Mun rocket with less than 30 parts, and one about how to actually get to the Mun from my current position.  To be fair, I have activated one of the Fundraising activities from the Administration building, so if anyone has any ideas on how I can increase my current funds to update the VAB I'm all ears.  And to be clear, the only contracts I have left are for tourists, parts I don't have yet, and the Flea test (which I refuse to do because, really, that slow at that altitude?).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Recommended Posts

  • 0
1 hour ago, Popestar said:

  But, you know, thanks for just telling me I don't know what I'm doing without actually helping me.

I know that you are frustrated, but lets get something straight:

I have no obligation whatsoever to help you, nor any other person in this whole forum has. Yet, my post contain a link to a serie of tutorial about not only about things you are struggling to do now but also things you will be struggling to do soon. You can take a look and try to learn something or you can ignore and moan about no one helping you. Your choice, not my problem.

Now, I can't really assess how good is your grasp of the game mechanics, if you  really figured out how to overcome the problem or just managed to do it by sheer luck and persistence. That is why I include things that are essential, but that you can just ignore if you already know it. Also for the benefit for the next guy that will stumble on that thread looking for help with that very same things.

In any case, more advanced advice may be offered if and when you provide enough information to convince me those basics are sufficiently covered. It's not worth my effort to try to explain anything more complex  to someone that may lack the bases to understand it.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

This is turning into a flame war, which benefits nobody.

@Popestar When your craft burns up in the atmosphere, what causes it? Hit F3 after it happens to get a play by play of what happened when, then take a screenshot of that and of the part that’s re-entering before it hits the atmosphere; upload to the image hosting site of your choice then insert them using the button in the bottom right of the reply text box (directly above ‘submit reply’) so we can take a look. It’s hard to figure out what the problem is without seeing the problem.

I routinely play KSP with re-entry heating at the maximum level (120%) and yet a regular crew pod with a heat shield can survive a direct return to re-entry from the Mun or Minmus with no issues even with only 10% ablator on the heat shield. They can also survive re-entering from LKO in a rescaled system almost 3 times the size of the stock planets, with an orbital velocity approaching 4km/s (beyond escape velocity for stock Kerbin), even with the re-entry heating maxed out.

If you’re using a probe, put it inside a 1.25m service bay as those are really heat-resistant and will shield the probe core inside from the heat of re-entry. Parachutes won’t deploy inside a service bay unless it’s open though so remember to open the doors once you’re through re-entry.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Hi @Popestar,

I appreciate that it can feel like others are being condescending and unhelpful. I don't think the majority of people intend to be, but some of these techniques and procedures become so bread and butter that it can be forgotten how daunting and tricky it was, and how some of what has become so part-and-parcel actually has to be learned.

From your second question, it seems that you're attempting to get to the Mun directly from launch, which as you've pointed out means waiting for the Mun to be in the correct place relative to Kerbin. A more reliable method would be to get into an orbit around Kerbin first. This is known as a parking orbit, and is usually done before any transfer to another celestial body. If you'd like more information on how to do that, I can provide more specific advice, but I don't want to assume you don't already know how to do it.

From a parking orbit,  it wouldn't matter where the Mun is, as you could plan a 'trans-munar injection' burn at the right time. This will also help with your return and re-entry angle.

I'm happy to create a tutorial directly addressing your situation. To ensure it reflects where you're at in your career, would you kindly tell me what buildings you have upgraded, what tech-level you've reached, and whether you are already able to achieve orbit around Kerbin?

 

 

Edited by Chequers
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
15 hours ago, Popestar said:

Ok, so several things here.

  1. I asked for help.  In fact, my first post literally asked for tutorials on what I was trying to accomplish.  I got none.  I got an explanation to get my Pe to 40k, an explanation of a type of ship to build, and told to look in the caveman thread.  Without a link, by the way.  So forgive me for being confused as I didn't really get what I was asking for.  Heck, I even gave a couple of links up front to show that I at least tried before asking.
  2. I am tired of being talked down to.  Not everyone is a rocket science or understands orbital mechanics.  To have multiple people talk to me as if I'm stupid does not help.  In fact, [snip] response is highly condescending.  And it reminds me once again that new community members should keep their mouths shut while the vets lord over us.  Yes, that's how it felt to read "You need to learn basic stuff" as if I know nothing.
  3. This is supposed to be a game.  I get that it's based on real mechanics, but at its core this is still a game.  And right now it doesn't feel that way.
  4. Pictures I can provide when I'm at my machine, assuming...
  5. ...I have a plan to try tomorrow that may work.  I have a game saved right after the maneuver to get me to the Mun, and I have an idea on what to do.  Thank you @Superfluous J for the tip.

I've stated I was frustrated and asked for help.  And I got treated like a stupid child for it.  If that's what the community is about, I won't ask for help.  Unfortunately, that's not the first time I've made that comment on these boards.

I'm sorry you had some bad experiences. I've started by asking this community, and i always found it very helpful.

Let me think how I can provide...

- as for a ship, you can get to mun and back (even land on mun, with skill) with the command pod, 4 tons of fuel, and a terrier engine. that will provide all your needs, if you can get it to orbit. So a good ship for the task would have the command pod, 2 solar panels, 1 extra battery, 1 parachute, 1 fuel tank for about 4 tons of fuel, and one terrier engine. that's 7 parts. to get it into orbit you need a bigger rocket, so you can use a decoupler, followed by some fuel tanks and eventually a reliant engine. maybe even some solid fuel boosters if you need some extra. Anyway, you should comfortably be able to get to orbit with your mun ship, within the 30 parts limit. If you want more, in this post I explain how I made a ship to land on mun, take off, reach minmus, land on it, and come back, with the 30 parts limitation and less than 30k funds (though i would not advise you to replicate just that, those ships are very bad to fly; but the orbiter stage, that you can easily copy).

- as for trajectory, first you must enter into kerbin orbit. then you burn prograde to a mun intercept (there is a tutorial for that). you will need approximately 850 m/s. after your flyby, you must try to enter the atmosphere with a low angle. you don't want to smash into the atmosphere or you'll burn for sure, you want to just touch it and slow down gradually. for this, you want a high periapsis. some suggested 40 km, but you can even use 50 or even 60. in this case you won't be able to land at the first passage, but each time you pass through the atmosphere will slow you down a bit, until eventually you will land. make sure to always point the ship retrograde while in the atmosphere, that should protect the most sensitive parts.that's my general approach towards mun missions. i never try to land at the first try, i always slow down with several passages in the high atmosphere. it is cheaper than loading a thermal shield.

But how to ensure you get a 50 km periapsis? you can burn radial/antiradial (the blue targets) just out of mun sphere of influence. the farthest you will be from kerbin, the cheapest this manuever is going to be.

- whenever asking help in this forum, it is highly recommended that you take screenshots and post pictures of what you are doing. I guess part of the reason many posters are giving bad replies is that they are frustrated with you because you don't provide enough information. and in your frustration, you look like you're blaming the very people who tried to help you for your problems. If we could figure out more clearly what you are doing, we'd have a much better chance of telling you what you are doing wrong.

- this game is meant to be realistic, and in space, realistic is hard. in fact, it's already much easier than reality. Still, there are several people who are finding it too easy and are looking for mods to complicate issues. We are space enthusiast. We like things this way. And a good game should be just hard enough to really challenge you. See above for people finding this too easy. anyway, you can't have realism without having difficulty. if you do not like making spreadsheets to keep track of your mission plans or detailing every single part of a ship to make sure it can perform its mission, or spend 10 minutes fiddling with a manuever node to try and get a more efficient trajectory, then this may not be the game for you. no shame in that. games are like food, everyone has different tastes

- [some people are] genuinely trying to help, and he generally gives good advice

I hope I was helpful. When I started this game I already had a pretty deep knowledge of astrophysics (i knew about periapsis, apoapsis, orbital nodes, hohmann transfer orbits, and how to go from one orbit to another, though i didn't expect it to be so expensive fuel-wise), but it still took me a lot of effort - and help from this forum - to figure out how to do some things. I can't imagine how difficult it can be for someone starting without even that theoretical knowledge.

 

Edited by Vanamonde
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

So I attempted to alter my Pe to 40k, and then alter my Ap to where I was coming into Kerbin's atmosphere.  And I am about 5 seconds worth of fuel short to do both maneuvers.  I hate having to start over, but I have no choice but to go back to the drawing board, reverting all the way back to build.  I think I know where I can lose some weight and add some fuel, but more testing is what I have to do.

To answer the question posed about orbit:  Yes, I can achieve orbit.  I have a satellite in orbit as a relay, although for some reason I can never seem to use that to send science data back.  I think that might be due to not having an antenna on the probe core, but que sera, I guess.

If I find I still have questions, my next post for that will include all of the information I can possibly put out here.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

[snip]

Actually, I'm autistic. I know that some of my comments sound snobbish, dismissive and stubborn, but I will never possess the skills to avoid or amend this. That is why I suggest to rather focus in the other part:

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

but he knows the game, and he is genuinely trying to help, and he generally gives good advice

Thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
26 minutes ago, Popestar said:

I have a satellite in orbit as a relay, although for some reason I can never seem to use that to send science data back.  I think that might be due to not having an antenna on the probe core, but que sera, I guess.

You are correct, you need an antenna.

Depending on the design you may be able to land crash into Kerbin and recover any surviving part for the science or you may send a Kerbal to gather it. But hardly worth the effort.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
51 minutes ago, Popestar said:

So I attempted to alter my Pe to 40k, and then alter my Ap to where I was coming into Kerbin's atmosphere.  And I am about 5 seconds worth of fuel short to do both maneuvers.

I think this is what is getting most of us... you only need one maneuver to bring your kerbin Pe to 40k... if you’re coming in from the Mun, and you just want to enter kerbin without any orbital burns, you just need a single burn from Mun’s SOI to set your Pe to 40k (although from the Mun, you can even set it lower without a heating re-entry problem)... once you’re there, don’t bother with modifying your Ap, because you will definelty get pulled to the surface (even if it shows you have an elliptical orbit in the patched conic)... even if you are traveling fast enough, the atmospheric drag will automatically pull your Ap down below the atmosphere. Once your Pe is set to 40k, ditch your engine, set your capsule to retrograde, activate your parachutes, and wait until you’re on the surface (you’ll have to speed up time)... even if you are moving fast enough to “bounce off the atmosphere” and reescape, your Pe is already below 40k, and you’ll definitely drop on the next orbit without any correction burns.

 

Long story short, get rid of your fuel filled payload when you’re in the atmosphere, that’s probably what is blowing up... or the overheating engine that your are seemingly burning while in atmo?

Edited by MarsUltor
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

You are correct, you need an antenna.

Depending on the design you may be able to land crash into Kerbin and recover any surviving part for the science or you may send a Kerbal to gather it. But hardly worth the effort.

I didn't word my original statement correctly.  The satellite in orbit has an antenna - 2 of them, actually, on opposite sides, one pointing "up" and the other pointing "down" (up and down are relative in space, but you should get the meaning here).  The problem is that the probe core I'm sending to the Mun doesn't have an antenna, which is probably why I'm not able to find a relay.  I'm actually getting a message that the information cannot be sent as a relay can't be found, so my assumption is the lack of an antenna on the probe core at the Mun.  Or that the satellite orbiting Kerbin isn't high enough to be found (at an Ap of 300k).  Or that the satellite is in the wrong position (read:  other side of Kerbin) when I'm trying to send data, and with no line of sight to it, the data can't be sent.  Or, quite possibly, a combination of all 3.

Again, I'm new to this, and it's just gonna take time.  I gotta remember that for every 1 success I'll see no less than 10 failures.  And I gotta remember to not get so frustrated (which is really hard for me).

 

20 minutes ago, MarsUltor said:

I think this is what is getting most of us... you only need one maneuver to bring your kerbin Pe to 40k... if you’re coming in from the Mun, and you just want to enter kerbin without any orbital burns, you just need a single burn from Mun’s SOI to set your Pe to 40k (although from the Mun, you can even set it lower without a heating re-entry problem)... once you’re there, don’t bother with modifying your Ap, because you will definelty get pulled to the surface (even if it shows you have an elliptical orbit in the patched conic)... even if you are traveling fast enough, the atmospheric drag will automatically pull your Ap down below the atmosphere. Once your Pe is set to 40k, ditch your engine, set your capsule to retrograde, activate your parachutes, and wait until you’re on the surface (you’ll have to speed up time)... even if you are moving fast enough to “bounce off the atmosphere” and reescape, your Pe is already below 40k, and you’ll definitely drop on the next orbit without any correction burns.

 

Long story short, get rid of your fuel filled payload when you’re in the atmosphere, that’s probably what is blowing up... or the overheating engine that your are seemingly burning while in atmo?

I should have taken gravitational pull from Kerbin into account when I altered the Pe to 40k (40,568 to be precise), but I didn't.  And then when I didn't have enough fuel to do the second burn, I just figured that mission was a lost cause.  I'll have to give that a try and see what happens.

In addition to this, I think part of my problem is the Science bay I sent up.  I want to grab as much science as I can, but that bay might not be the most heat resistant thing in the Kerbin universe, and that may be causing part of the overheating problem I'm experiencing.  I'm quite sure that the engine, even if had no fuel left in it, is causing part of the problem, which means I need to stage it away before I hit the atmosphere.  Or, at least, before I hit that portion of the atmosphere that causes heating upon re-entry.

Either way, I've got a few things I can work on and try to tweak.  I'm also going to install a couple of mods (most notably MechJeb 2) and see what help, if any, they give me in my quest here.  They could be amazing for my game...and they could be overwhelming...or they could do nothing that I expect.  Testing will get the truth out!

Edited by Popestar
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
5 minutes ago, Popestar said:

I didn't word my original statement correctly.

Still. You need an actual antenna to transmit science, the one built in in the probe/command module don't count. If I'm not mistaken the actual messages is that a relay cannot be found or the craft lacks an antenna. It is easy to miss since it vanishes so quickly.

Also, is quite possible that your relay satellite (with a pair of HG-5 antennas if i get it right) is out of range or out of position, but the lvl2 Ground Station I suppose you also have are more than capable to reach your probe on the Mun. In stock KSP, with very few exception,  relays are only useful to solve Line of Sight issues and should be much closer to the weak antennas on the probes and ship out there than the strong dishes on he ground station back in Kerbin

46 minutes ago, Popestar said:

that bay might not be the most heat resistant thing in the Kerbin universe

no..is among the least heat resistant parts available and is quite tricky to protect too.

One way to get around this is to pull the science with a Science Storage Unit and stage away the material bay; another is to set the periapsis much higher in the atmosphere (60-70km) and take several aerobrake passes before finally attempting to reentry.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
19 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

the one built in in the probe/command module don't count

And that's not stated anywhere else I've seen, which is why I didn't put one on the probe going to the Mun.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
19 hours ago, Popestar said:

If it's so hard, then how have so many people been able to do it without being told how?  And what is my major malfunction that I can't figure it out?

Different aspects of the game are easy/difficult for different people. I myself successfully rendezvoused and docked on my first attempt and just about every attempt since, but crashed continuously for 4 straight days while trying to land on Mun for the first time. So this one is hard for you. Who cares? You're not being graded. :D 

As for blowing up while trying to re-enter, how low are you setting your Kerbin periapsis? A higher one can make for a longer, less violent deceleration. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

to be more accurate about antennas:

- all antennas can transmit science, but not the one in the probe cores. those can only be used for control

- only some antennas can be used as relays, to extend the reach of other antennas. you can find more specific informations on the commnet article on the wiki and the article on antennas. long story short, having a close by relay satellite can extend the reach of other vessels, but only if it has the right kind of antennas: those that in the antenna article are marked as "relay capable: yes"

 

regarding kerbin reentry, if you have a science-jr, then reentry is very tricky, because that part is very fragile to heat. it can be managed, but only with extreme care. I keep suggesting a higher periapsis and achieving landing in multiple passages. Heck, i'd performed a dozen aerobraking manuevers the last time i needed to land safely a science-jr.

 

regarding manuevering the periapsis, if you burn radial when you are far from kerbin the cost should be very small, less than 1 m/s to raise/lower periapsis by 10 kilometer.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

This thread turned personal. Some comments have been removed. 

As someone who is easily frustrated, I know what it's like to be stymied by a game and how infuriating it can be to feel condescended to when seeking help. But please keep in mind that people are at least trying to help even if they might not be expressing themselves well or in a way that is accessible to you. 

Also, please avoid characterizing the personalities of other forum members. Right or wrong, being openly critical of people, especially while citing them by name, can be humiliating and hurtful, and nobody benefits from that. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
6 hours ago, Popestar said:

And that's not stated anywhere else I've seen, which is why I didn't put one on the probe going to the Mun.

Is there in the part description, but yea...with so many details is easy to miss something. 

Spoiler

C3yvBO8.png?1

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

@Popestar:

I'm a bit late to the party, and I don't have any bubble gum, but I may be able to help you.

On 10/8/2020 at 2:32 PM, Popestar said:

1.  I am limited to 30 parts in the VAB, and I only have 192k in funds.  So I cannot upgrade the VAB to accommodate enough parts for this Mun landing tutorial (I built out the rocket, eliminating the landing gear, batteries, and the service bay, and that gets me down to 43 parts).  I cannot find another decent tutorial on how to build a rocket designed for a Mun fly-by, although I have seen at least one other one about building a rocket in general.  But that one doesn't really go into what is needed on an early-career rocket to do a fly-by of the Mun.

With 192k Funds, money isn't a problem.  You can build a fully flyby-capable rocket with 20 parts for less than 10k Funds.  I tried to do it with a tier-1 launchpad, but the 18-tonne limit was enough of a frustration that I will go so far as to say:  don't bother.  A tier-2 Tracking Centre is very, very helpful, but again, not necessary.

I don't know the specifics of your career, so I assumed that you had the first three tiers of technology unlocked, plus Advanced Rocketry from Tier 4 (Tier 4 would be the nodes that cost 45 science to unlock).  I also assumed a Tier 2 Launchpad and Tracking Centre.

The trick to remember about flybys as opposed to landing (or even orbiting) is that the flight is functionally equivalent to a rendezvous.  The only real differences are that you don't burn to match velocities and that the thing you are approaching has a sphere of influence that can throw you out of the system if you're not careful.  Therefore, your flyby rocket really doesn't need to be more elaborate than an orbiter with extra fuel.  Trying to build a flyby rocket from a landing tutorial can cause problems because the transfer, capture, and landing can all be (and sometimes need to be) separate and discrete phases of the flight, complete with their own stages and equipment, almost none of which is necessary for a flyby and almost all of which thus adds unnecessary mass--catastrophically so, if you don't have the upgrades needed to actually fly those rockets.  Thus, while it is true that any lander is necessarily an orbiter and a, er, ... flyby-er (?) ... the point is that a lander that is used for that purpose is far too much rocket for that particular job.

To wit, the rocket given in the Mun landing tutorial that you linked has about three times more things than you need for a flyby.

I was able to do it with the following rocket  (apologies for no picture):

Parts:
(1)                                                         Mk. 16 Parachute
(2-3)                                          Mk. 1 Command Pod (with monopropellant drained) ------> Mystery Goo
(4)                                                1.25m Heat Shield (with 20.0 ablator)
(5)                                                         1.25m Decoupler
(6)                                                         FL-T400 Fuel Tank
(7)                                                      LV-909 'Terrier' Engine
(8)                                                         1.25m Decoupler
(9-11)                     Aerodynamic Nose Cone            FL-T400 Fuel Tank            Aerodynamic Nose Cone
(12-14)                    TT-38K Radial Decoupler <------  FL-T400 Fuel Tank  ------> TT-38K Radial Decoupler
(15-19) Basic Fin <------  BACC 'Thumper' SRB               FL-T400 Fuel Tank               BACC 'Thumper' SRB  ------> Basic Fin
(20)                                                     LV-T45 'Swivel' Engine

I'm certain that this can be improved.  This rocket is an absolute jitney; it does the job but is not elegant and shouldn't be legal for passenger fare.  It does leave ten parts of room for you to improve the rocket, and it comes to a total mass of 27.6 tonnes, a price of 9,840 Funds, and a delta-V of 5,807 m/s.

Now, to walk you through the design rationale:

  • You only need one parachute.  You're using the atmosphere and the heat shield to do your braking, and extra parachutes don't add to that because you're not bringing the extra mass of a service bay.
  • You don't need a reaction wheel or batteries; the on-board ones in the pod are enough.  I'd recommend keeping rotations to an absolute minimum, though; you have no solar panel and only the Swivel engine has an alternator.
  • No service bay means carrying your Mystery Goo in the open for all to see; this is not a rocket for polite company.  Put it on the east-facing side of the pod (that's the side facing the open door in the VAB) so it doesn't deflect your rocket to the north or south (I don't recall whether the Mystery Goo has physics, but I'm treating it as though it does).  If you have the 1.25m heat shield, then you have the thermometer and barometer, too, so bring them if you want an easy upgrade to this rocket.  Keep the science instruments high up on the pod; you want the pod to shield them as much as possible on reentry because you don't have a separate science container, and if you don't have an upgraded Astronaut Complex, then you can't EVA and thus must bring the experiments home.
  • You do need a heat shield; it may not be completely, absolutely necessary, but you're returning from the Mun, so have a heat shield.  You only need a minimum of ablator, though.
  • The FL-T400 tank and Terrier engine will be working for nearly the entire trip.  The Swivel stack isn't enough to make orbit on its own, so the Terrier will get you the rest of the way to orbit, all the way to the Mun, and will de-orbit you on the way back.
  • The tutorial that you linked mentions that liquid boosters are easier to control and worth the expense over the cheaper solid rocket boosters.  That's true.  A Thumper, however, is a propellant tank and engine in one part--your limiting factor here is part count, not cost, so design accordingly.  I turned the thrust limiter on these down to 75%; you may want to do the same so that your tiny pod-based reaction wheels can have a chance to actually turn the rocket.
  • You can exchange the Basic Fins for AV-R8 Winglets if you have them, but that requires unlocking Flight Control in R & D (it'll cost another 45 Science).
  • Struts are parts.  Nuts to that.  Use 'Rigid Attachment' on the Thumpers and call it good.
  • Autostruts are not parts.  Nuts to that, too.  You don't need them on this rocket.
  • TT-18A Launch Stability Enhancers?  What, are you crazy?  This rocket takes ground control seriously.

If you add the extra experiments, then the price comes to 11,620 Funds, and 12,850 Funds if you go in for the AV-R8 Winglets.

On 10/8/2020 at 2:32 PM, Popestar said:

2.  I created a save game for being able to test things out so that it doesn't impact my actual career game, and I "cheated" to give myself enough funds to upgrade the VAB and build/launch the rocket I mentioned above.  Interestingly enough, it has enough power to get to an Ap that would intersect with the Mun's orbit...on Year 1, Day 6, Hour 4, Minute 48.  That's from the default launchpad, and I have not opened the settings to allow for the other sites (and I'm not sure I will).  The rocket designed in the tutorial above doesn't have enough juice in it to get to the appropriate Ap and to the appropriate spot to do a fly-by with the Mun in its current position, so I'm stuck either fast-forwarding an entire year before launch, or finding a tutorial on how to do this regardless of Mun position relative to Kerbin.  I saw a couple of tutorials about landing on the Mun (Early Career Mun Landing and How to Land on the Mun), but both of them are more focused about landing than they are about actually getting there.  Lot of good information in them, but not really what I need.

The game begins new saves on Year 1, Day 1, not Year 0, Day 0.  Your flight plan was for six days hence, not a year and six days.

On 10/8/2020 at 2:32 PM, Popestar said:

Are there any tutorials related directly to the 2 above things I'm asking about?  I need one on how to build an early-career Mun rocket with less than 30 parts, and one about how to actually get to the Mun from my current position.

Almost all of the tutorials that you're likely to find will be about landing on the Mun, I'm afraid.  If you're comfortable with picking and choosing relevant parts from many tutorials, then I suggest that you look into any that you can find that cover rendezvous of two objects in wildly different orbits (as in, for example, one vessel in an 80 km orbit that wants to rendezvous with something in, say, a 12,000 km orbit).  The idea is that where the conventional approach is to get into a similar orbit and then adjust it from there, when you have such a drastic difference, it's extremely wasteful to circularise at such a high orbit unless it's also at the rendezvous point with your target.

Another possibility is to look at scanner tutorials and maybe Grand Tour-type compound-flyby missions.  Scanners don't land, so they're at least one degree closer to a flyby than landers.

Alternatively, you can do this extremely quick not-really-a-tutorial that I wrote just now:

  • I assume that you can take the example rocket I gave you above and get it to orbit.  It may take a couple of tries; but the ascent profile is typical:  start turning at 1,000 metres or 100 m/s, turn slowly, be roughly at 45-degrees at 10,000 m, and be on a fairly flat trajectory by 30,000 m.  The main point to watch is that the Swivel will run out when you're still suborbital.  You may want to aim slightly up to ensure that you have an apoapsis out of the atmosphere, but it's not necessary; the Terrier has 59.9 kN of thrust (out of 60 kN) at 60,000 m, anyway.  Don't worry about having exactly zero inclination.  Don't worry about being perfectly circular.  Aim more upwards if you start seeing overheat bars on the experiments.
  • The Tier-2 Tracking Centre doesn't have manoeuvre planning, so you'll need to get the Mun intercept by eye.  Go into Map View and orient the map so that you're looking down at Kerbin's north pole.  Rotate the view so that the Mun is 45 degrees clockwise from the top of the screen.  The point on your orbit that is closest to the bottom of the screen is where you want to burn.
  • Time warp until your vessel is at (or very near to) that point; it helps to change focus to Kerbin so that you can place the tip of your mouse pointer cursor at the burn location and expect it to remain still; this is our poor-man's manoeuvre node (you can change focus back to your vessel with the ` key, which is to the left of 1 on an American layout).  Hopefully by this point, you'll see why I made certain to include 1,000 m/s more than the delta-V map says you strictly need.
  • Burn for intercept.  But throttle down when your apoapsis gets close and keep your finger over the cutoff; shut the engine down immediately once you get an encounter.  The Tier-2 Tracking Centre does show patched conics, so you'll know immediately when you get an encounter.  This is why I find it so helpful.
  • This is the most important thing to remember about flyby missions:  any entry and exit of the sphere of influence counts as a flyby.  You're not trying to orbit, let alone land, so you don't need to go down to the bottom of the gravity well.  On the other hand, although the Mun is rather bad at gravity assists, it can still thoroughly ruin your mission with one, so don't give it the chance:  cut the shallowest chord possible through the Mun's sphere of influence.  You're not carrying duplicate science experiments and you can't EVA to reset anything in early career, so get the high-in-space science and go home.  Leave yourself enough time to do your experiments (don't forget your crew report!), but don't linger, because the longer you're there, the more your post-encounter trajectory will change.  I typically end up with about one to two hours in the Mun's sphere; that's quite enough.
  • Your brief time in the Mun's sphere will still have raised your orbit by a bit, so when you exit, you'll find yourself at or approaching the apoapsis of your Kerbin orbit, which is terribly convenient:  burn retrograde to lower the periapsis to about 40,000 metres.  You may want to modify that value after trying the rocket for yourself--keep in mind that I'm giving you the barest essentials of the mission.
  • When you get close to Kerbin, you may want to burn to lower your apoapsis.  This is mainly to reduce your velocity in atmosphere; your 20 ablator will run out very quickly if you come in too fast.  Your heat shield will still work, somewhat, afterwards, but I tended to run out of ablator at the very end of my need for it, so I wasn't concerned.
  • Land, and enjoy the fruits of your mission:  with default difficulty settings, you get 82 science from the experiments and recovery if all went well and you completed the crew report, barometer, thermometer, and mystery goo experiments.
On 10/8/2020 at 2:32 PM, Popestar said:

To be fair, I have activated one of the Fundraising activities from the Administration building, so if anyone has any ideas on how I can increase my current funds to update the VAB I'm all ears.  And to be clear, the only contracts I have left are for tourists, parts I don't have yet, and the Flea test (which I refuse to do because, really, that slow at that altitude?).

You have other options.  For one thing, there are the World's Firsts rewards for the flyby (this assumes default difficulty and rewards settings, that the reputation is from a start of zero, and that you've not gone to the Mun yet in this save):

Event Funds :funds: Science :science: Reputation :rep:
First Flyby of Mun 26,000 2 4
Escaping Kerbin's Sphere 26,400 3 5
Escaping the Mun's Sphere 18,720 1 3
Returning to Kerbin from the Flyby 26,000 2 4
Totals 97,120 8 16

Also note that part test contracts give you the parts that you need even though they may be locked (some people, on getting a contract for a very good part that they have not yet unlocked, will delay completing these for several in-game years while they enjoy the use of the part on many experimental prototype 'testbeds').

You can try to get more World's Firsts for Kerbin.  Have you tried rendezvous?  Docking?  Building a space station?  These all pay rewards for the first time you do them.

If you have any other questions, please do feel free to ask.  Until then, happy non-landings!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

This may not be your style, but what about taking a break from the career and just playing around in sandbox?  I find I learn better when I can first just build and get the basics down.  I have over 1000 hours in this game, but until recently had spent most of my time building planes and  I could not build a decent rocket. Doing @Chequers's Orbit Book Camp challenge really taught me how to do that. It inspired me to do my own SSTO Challenge, which refined that.  I had all the parts in the tech tree to work with, so I could just concentrate on refining my technique.  I learned through trial and error and looking at other entries just how inefficient my rockets were and how wrong my trajectory was.  

 

I still have not played through a career. I think if I had tried that when I first began KSP I would have just given up.  Career is really hard at the beginning: the planes are hard, the rockets are hard...you are just very limited.  If you enjoy bashing though that, great. But if you would prefer a bit more understanding, then I would suggest taking a break from it, and getting some skills honed in sandbox.  And perhaps, just take a short KSP break. I do that with KSP, other games and things I do in real life.  

 

Best of luck. And don't give up!  I think a lot of us have felt that at one time or another, but that difficulty makes the less-than-frequent successes that much sweeter.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
5 hours ago, Klapaucius said:

This may not be your style, but what about taking a break from the career and just playing around in sandbox?  I find I learn better when I can first just build and get the basics down.  I have over 1000 hours in this game, but until recently had spent most of my time building planes and  I could not build a decent rocket. Doing @Chequers's Orbit Book Camp challenge really taught me how to do that. It inspired me to do my own SSTO Challenge, which refined that.  I had all the parts in the tech tree to work with, so I could just concentrate on refining my technique.  I learned through trial and error and looking at other entries just how inefficient my rockets were and how wrong my trajectory was.  

 

I still have not played through a career. I think if I had tried that when I first began KSP I would have just given up.  Career is really hard at the beginning: the planes are hard, the rockets are hard...you are just very limited.  If you enjoy bashing though that, great. But if you would prefer a bit more understanding, then I would suggest taking a break from it, and getting some skills honed in sandbox.  And perhaps, just take a short KSP break. I do that with KSP, other games and things I do in real life.  

 

Best of luck. And don't give up!  I think a lot of us have felt that at one time or another, but that difficulty makes the less-than-frequent successes that much sweeter.

 

 

My problem with Sandbox mode is that I end up getting comfortable with the awesome later tech stuff...and then get even more frustrated because I don't have it in career mode.  I want to learn at a nice, slow pace, and I think just chugging through career will, in the long run, help me be better at this game.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
On 10/8/2020 at 2:51 PM, Popestar said:

Now my problem is that I cannot seem to flatten out my inbound trajectory enough so that I don't explode upon entering the atmosphere.  The craft tends to be moving too fast, and even with sitting in retrograde and firing up the engine, I can't seem to slow down enough and not overheat.  I also cannot seem to get a maneuver to be set up to flatten out enough, with the craft coming down far too fast and hot.

Bring it back to something relevant another two people said. A simpler recovery craft can survive some pretty insane re-entries. You should be able to make a pod that can re-enter after direct transfer from the mun.

However I keep thinking it over and there are definitely a lot of creative ways to break even the best re-entry craft, if you come back home with more velocity than you should, if your trajectory is straight down instead of around back, even a tiny pod with a heat shield could explode.

What might help a lot here is if you shared a savefile. I am thinking the most useful savefile is after flying by the mun, after doing a burn to set up your trajectory toward kerbin. That way we can see how you're setting up your return.

Please remember there are a lot of engineers on here, and there are also a lot of people on here for whom english was not their 1st language.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
5 hours ago, Popestar said:

My problem with Sandbox mode is that I end up getting comfortable with the awesome later tech stuff...and then get even more frustrated because I don't have it in career mode.  I want to learn at a nice, slow pace, and I think just chugging through career will, in the long run, help me be better at this game.

Fair enough. In the case of the challenge I mentioned, because there was a budget, I increasingly stripped down my rocket and squeezed every bit of Delta V out of it. Now, if I go into career, even without the parts, I have the skills to get a small rocket with a very tight delta-v margin into orbit. Either way, that initial ascent can vary greatly in terms of fuel consumption based on your trajectory, and that in turn will determine whether you get to the Mun and back or not.

If it is any help, I am trying to get to Dres, and in sandbox, I still am terrible at getting a rocket to anything besides Duna (and even that is iffy) without stranding my Kerbals.  I may be a bit further along, but it is the same problem.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
1 hour ago, Klapaucius said:

Fair enough. In the case of the challenge I mentioned, because there was a budget, I increasingly stripped down my rocket and squeezed every bit of Delta V out of it. Now, if I go into career, even without the parts, I have the skills to get a small rocket with a very tight delta-v margin into orbit. Either way, that initial ascent can vary greatly in terms of fuel consumption based on your trajectory, and that in turn will determine whether you get to the Mun and back or not.

If it is any help, I am trying to get to Dres, and in sandbox, I still am terrible at getting a rocket to anything besides Duna (and even that is iffy) without stranding my Kerbals.  I may be a bit further along, but it is the same problem.

I totally understand.

My mission now is to get to the Mun and back in one flight (no landing), which is going to require me to calculate trajectory to (because the Mun doesn't stay in one place, so I have to adjust for when I leave and when I'll get into its SOI and such) and then calculate re-entry.  I will probably have to adjust my Pe to ~45k so that when I am coming back I get to use Kerbin's gravity and atmosphere to aerobrake and pull me back to the surface.  Hopefully without exploding.  :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
10 hours ago, Popestar said:

I totally understand.

My mission now is to get to the Mun and back in one flight (no landing), which is going to require me to calculate trajectory to (because the Mun doesn't stay in one place, so I have to adjust for when I leave and when I'll get into its SOI and such) and then calculate re-entry.  I will probably have to adjust my Pe to ~45k so that when I am coming back I get to use Kerbin's gravity and atmosphere to aerobrake and pull me back to the surface.  Hopefully without exploding.  :)

Good luck! Let us know how you get on - if you're able to provide any visuals of your missions, that'd help us provide further advice.

Have you unlocked manoeuvre nodes yet? This is done by upgrading the Tracking Station and Mission Control to level 2. It will also unlocked patched conics, which help considerably in planning manoeuvres and understanding your flight path.

If not, you can still eyeball a burn to the Mun (I did my first time), but you won't know if you'll enter the Mun's sphere of influence until you actually enter it.

Edited by Chequers
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...