[COMPLETED] Beyond Home Space Race - winner! @jimmymcgoochie

[JadeOfMaar]

On 10/17/2020 at 1:33 PM, Entropian said:

Excuse me, EL?  I think that would be really overpowered; just make a von Neumann machine and some kerbals, and you're good to go...

EL is not OP in any way. It's actually a convenience whose absence in stock (and that we aren't capable of yet IRL) is actually a huge de-buff/cripple. And its presence in this challenge actually easily equates to the deal with KSP2 where you will have a fixed upper limit on how massive you can launch from the KSC. You're forced to build your megaton ships in orbit.

EL provides all of these challenges, for perspective:

• You need to mine something other than Ore (MetalOre) and process it.
• You get waste material (ScrapMetal) which can be and should be re-processed to keep RocketParts production at or near top efficiency.
• EL's smelters use a different kind of CoreHeat system. They are known to consume LFO to warm up (and to cool themselves).
• You have so much more reason to bring lots of Engineers. The more and higher level ones you have, the faster EL things get done. And you will find yourself struggling to gather them due to stock exponential hiring cost (in career) or the RNG populating the Astronaut Center with lots of what traits you don't want.
• You need to have the tanks and battery supply to contain all the construction material and other resources (not all at once though, you can progressively top things up) to get your new ship ready.
• The bigger your ship, the bigger your ship yard in order to ISRU faster and save time.
• You have to design and build a bootstrap craft that can deploy your starter EL base with minimal hassle. The design challenge is greater if the bootstrap aims to be reusable and not consumed by the base that it deploys.

Some of its benefits (including what it saves you from):

• Building, launching and docking segments to your ship-- segments which tend to contain their own probe cores, lots of RCS thrusters, lots of RCS tankage, structural support (for use by tugs and launch vehicles) to put them in place in orbit...All of these things become useless and dead mass once you've docked your segments. EL provides a pad that replaces itself with whatever spawns through it (like welding docking ports).
• Sending your heavy return/ascent ship with your main ship (assuming kerbals in your headcanon are sufficiently advanced and don't have to do like us and send it well in advance of the manned mission). Build that when you're landed, provided you have a bootstrap as part of your descent vehicle.
• Your kerbals on some planet waiting for a return, replacement or support ship to arrive when, for whatever reason, they broke their existing one. They further they are from Kerbin, the more you feel its significance. Especially when interstellar.

 

Spoiler

EL -does- have a construction drone... But with all great power comes great responsibility...And generally, a great caveat too. Restrain yourself or be prepared to pay the tax or the whole price, of course.

 

On 10/17/2020 at 2:34 PM, Lewie said:

I dunno, man...I tried to get a ship that was quite similar to the IEV Clarke into orbit, and that failed miserably. with all due respect, that's not a challenge, that's masochism. (at least the way I tried it)

As with Lewie here, quite a lot of players are into building ships that are unfathomably large or too complex in shape and function to safely launch from sea level. In a sensible universe you just don't do that and you can't afford (or be bothered) to build the kind of launcher required to pull it off anyway. No one in their right mind is going to build the likes of the KSP2 Deadalus ship and the super-massive, horribly shaped, liquid fueled launcher for it. Then again, I often say (not necessarily on the forum), "There's ALWAYS someone who will try that."

Edited October 19, 2020 by JadeOfMaar

[JadeOfMaar]

On 10/12/2020 at 5:25 PM, jimmymcgoochie said:

https://github.com/Morphisor244/Beyond-Home-Rescale

A ready-made config to make Beyond Home match the scale of JNSQ.

Simply rescaling BH won't do anything about Rhode's Laythe-like stats. Morphisor's setup is rated "3.56x" and changes Rhode's stats (especially gravity) to be like Kerbin, for those who don't already know.

On 10/15/2020 at 4:22 PM, Entropian said:

KSPIE is quite overpowered for this, I think. -snip- Kerbal Atomics is way too overpowered for this.

At stock scale, definitely. Gameslinx has the white dwarf Kerbol close enough that you can easily reach it on stock NERVA. Once you add in rescale (particularly, 3.2x or Morphisor's 3.56x) the concern goes away.

Nertea's Far Future Tech (whatever state it's in) would be the better choice since KSPI involves far more than just what you need-- a handful of options for late-game ion engines and torch engines. If you like aircraft (and rescale) you'll want Kerbal Atomics Near Future Aeronautics: for its jet engines that don't need Oxygen, for the few planets that have un-breatheable atmospheres; for its jet engines that can run electric so you don't need as much to carry LF in your planes.

(Oops. I confused KA with NFA. But I'll add/keep this suggestion just in case.)

Unfortunately I don't know of any good mod that provides only highly advanced and interstellar capable engines, and not a lot of extraneous stuff as well..... Well I could suggest B9 HX + B9 HX Reconfig. This combo should fit the bill quite nicely actually. It's actually two very small downloads, only structural parts and tanks, some engines, and RCS.

Edited October 19, 2020 by JadeOfMaar

[GuessingEveryDay]

1 hour ago, JadeOfMaar said:

EL

Okay, I've been gone for a few days helping with cleaning up after hurricane Sally, and I would like to know what EL is. If it's similar to KSPIE, then that's fine. Just make sure you tell me what it is in the DMs.

[Entropian]

1 hour ago, JadeOfMaar said:

EL is not OP in any way.

Well, for me I find it is, even in RSS, due to the von Neumann potential, but if it's in the race I'll use it.

27 minutes ago, GuessingEveryDay said:

Okay, I've been gone for a few days helping with cleaning up after hurricane Sally, and I would like to know what EL is. If it's similar to KSPIE, then that's fine. Just make sure you tell me what it is in the DMs.

Basically it's a mod for building craft outside the VAB using a system of mining, smelting, and construction that can be done unkerballed (slower) and kerballed (way faster).

[Entropian]

Is KAS allowed?  KIS is a dependency of EL, so it seems like it would be useful.

[Lewie]

44 minutes ago, Entropian said:

Is KAS allowed?  KIS is a dependency of EL, so it seems like it would be useful.

I don’t see any harm in this being in the challenge.

[GuessingEveryDay]

OP has been modified to reflect changes.

[kspnerd122]

I am pulling the trigger and joining the space race

I pick EPL for my mod(unless I can have EL and something else if so I want EL and KW rocketry.

[jimmymcgoochie]

@GuessingEveryDay due to forum update you'll need to re-add me to the list of competitors, and it's probably worth checking that nobody else is missing too.

[Barrackar]

LINUX  Installation Note:

For anybody else running linux, Parallax and Kopernicus' ring shader are currently broken for linux. After installing Beyond Home, i.e. through CKAN, I had to manually delete the Parallax folder in order to get planet textures working properly. EDIT: The newer version of Parallax 1.1.1b is working.

For Kopernicus I am using the Dev version which you can install by CKAN > settings --- New Metadata Repository, and selecting the "official" repository of Kopernicus BE. Then "Kopernicus Bleeding Edge Beta" will appear in the CKAN list.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Barrackar
Update: Parallax v1.1.1b works.

[Barrackar]

Question 1: Are these the rules? (Copied from previous JNSQ race)

Set the game to normal difficulty (CAREER mode?), except add these:

• Set the crew respawn option to off
• You can enable advance tweakables (autostruts) if you want

1.  No cheating (Hyperedit, Alt-F12 cheat menu, just plain old lying, etc.)
2.  Everything is based off of in-game time
3. You are limited to ONLY 1 milestone and 1 prerequisite per flight. Even if you accomplish more, IT WON'T COUNT.
4. Use quicksaves/reverts only because of game-related problems. If the game glitches out, go ahead and revert, but if you forgot a part or something, too bad so sad.

Question 2: Are we resizing in addition to rescaling? [I vote no]

@jimmymcgoochie posted a configuration with 3.5 rescaling, 3.5 resizing, and increased atmospheric thickness. This is different from the 2.7 rescaling others have discussed.

Increasing gravity and atmosphere obviously makes it a lot harder to make it to orbit which dramatically increases the size and cost of everything. Under increased sizing the challenge becomes more about efficiently getting to orbit to make enough funds fast enough to afford the behemoth ships we will need for the interstellar journey. This would certainly be an interesting challenge but I think it would end up being quite grindy trying to maximize profits out of mission control.

However, if we don't resize and only rescale then orbit is relatively easy to obtain and I think the challenge will be less grinding missions. With an easier orbit you can do more at lower tech for a faster start and I think there is a tradeoff between launching earlier at lower tech but being delayed by requiring more efficient gravity assists versus launching later with better tech (higher dV) and being able to use a more direct transfer route. I would certainly be interested in seeing everybody's attempts at squeezing the most out of the parts available to try to decrease their in-game time. With an easier orbit I also think it is more likely that more people actually finish the challenge within a reasonable period of time.

Question 3: What is a solar probe? Is it any probe core orbiting around any sun(s)? For the bonus did you mean all three stars? (The home system is a binary: Fate & Destiny; and Kerbol is orbiting further out.)

[jimmymcgoochie]

@Barrackar Beyond Home's home planet Rhode is smaller than stock Kerbin. A 3.5x rescale makes its radius 1575km, which is very similar to the 1600km radius of Kerbin in JNSQ; the orbital velocities are also pretty similar at around 3.8km/s.

We're doing this challenge in science mode, not career mode- no funds necessary, so no need to grind missions etc. to build the big interplanetary/interstellar ships.

 

And as I've pointed out before: there's a launch site on Rhode's first moon Lua!

[Entropian]

I'm sorry, but I have to drop out.  My life has unexpectedly gotten a lot busier and I won't have much time for KSP for the foreseeable future.

[GuessingEveryDay]

9 hours ago, Entropian said:

I'm sorry, but I have to drop out.  My life has unexpectedly gotten a lot busier and I won't have much time for KSP for the foreseeable future.

That's all right, I hope you'll be able to participate in the next Space Race.

 

 

[kspnerd122]

Can I please be entered into the space race.

I asked earlier, also, atmo thickness increase is a no for me, I am already developing a skyhook like system to help, also this makes KSPIE engines even more required if you want to put anything big in space, and this renders EPL a requirement to make anything large, also stock parts are designed for stock scale, you need a HUGE rocket(compared to stock) to get to the mun, because you need more fuel to get to orbit, I say the rescale is fine, but no changes to atmospheres, renders return from hydrus near impossible.

[jimmymcgoochie]

After trying to launch stuff from the Lua launchpad (requires Kerbal Konstructs), it turns out to have a really low launch mass tolerance of just 50 tons, which does limit its usefulness. 

Question- are we using the stock tech tree or CTT?

Rather than KSPIE and EPL, I'm planning to use this for interstellar missions:

Turns out there's a KSP version of Endurance, and it has a patch to run on hydrogen (which fits in perfectly with my cryo propulsion theme), but there's a problem with a missing resource (FusionPellets) that mean the Lander and Ranger fusion reactors can't function- problematic when the engines use hundreds or even thousands of power per second! If an official fix isn't released, I'll make one of my own to restore this broken functionality. I don't know exactly how effective it'll be for long-distance flights as the stock delta-V readout doesn't work for the Endurance's main engines, but if it works then I'm running with it.

@kspnerd122 The changes to the planets make them similar in size and scale to JNSQ- a planet pack that's 2.7x larger than the stock solar system and widely regarded as the optimal scale for stock parts. The rescale configuration I posted makes Rhode very similar to JNSQ Kerbin- 1575km diameter compared to 1600, nearly identical gravity (1g vs 1.014g) and total atmosphere height (~84km vs 85km), with orbital velocity being almost identical.

Stock parts are actually designed for a ~2.5x scale system: the original plan was for the 3-kerbal pod to be 1m in diameter but this was increased to 2.5m because the original scale didn't work out; think how tiny Kerbals would have to be to fit three in a one metre pod!

[kspnerd122]

Hey guys, I found a cheeky way to scale down my launchers without payload capping them, use a skyhook type system(fly out of atmosphere, use "Skyhook" vessel to cancel relative velocity, dock, and then use the skyhook to go back into orbit, this can reduce launcher size by up to 30%

I have several other tricks for saving fuel, such as using scaythe to get a grav assist to gateway(saves fuel)

I also LOVE using nuclear turbojets(effectively infinite fuel in atmosphere)

Also can someone send me the rescale

Also my mod will be KPBS( will also have LS mods installed, will be turned off for this, to avoid breaking saves further)

[jimmymcgoochie]

On 10/12/2020 at 10:25 PM, jimmymcgoochie said:

https://github.com/Morphisor244/Beyond-Home-Rescale

@kspnerd122 requires Kopernicus, Beyond Home and Sigma Dimensions.

I don’t think KPBS is a particularly good choice; also where are you getting that nuclear jet from?

 

[kspnerd122]

KSPIE

Nuclear jet is from KSPIE

Also, any good part mods for me

Ok, then, KW rocketry

[camacju]

Is this too late for me to enter? I'd like to do the masochist option and do a completely stock parts run. No dlc either

edit: How would I create one Beyond Home game and have the rest of my games be stock? I don't want to mess up the other saves that I have

Edited November 5, 2020 by camacju

[GuessingEveryDay]

Send me a DM before 5 EDT today, and you're in. Make sure you include a flag.

[jimmymcgoochie]

On 11/5/2020 at 3:27 PM, camacju said:

How would I create one Beyond Home game and have the rest of my games be stock? I don't want to mess up the other saves that I have

It's possible, advisable and I would say required to have separate copies of KSP for each major save game you're running, especially with planet packs and extra-especially with planet packs that change or overwrite the stock planets. Fortunately it's really easy to do this: either click the KSP directory itself (if you got KSP from Steam it's inside steam/steamapps/common, otherwise it's wherever you downloaded it to), copy the directory and paste it wherever you like; or if you're using CKAN to manage your mods (I recommend you do, it makes life so much easier most of the time) click File > manage KSP instances > new instance > clone/fake new instance > select an existing instance and a destination folder and it will copy everything for you, mods and all.

You can have as many copies of KSP as you like, all with different sets of mods or even different versions of the game. If you're taking part in this Space Race, you'll need a fresh copy of KSP- ideally 1.10.1 but any version from 1.8 onwards should be fine- with Kopernicus (or Kopernicus bleeding edge if you're using 1.10.x), Beyond Home, Sigma Dimensions and this config  to rescale the system. Add other mods if you want e.g. graphics or quality of life (KAC, MechJeb etc.) but don't use a parts mod that someone else has already claimed in the OP.

edit: P.S. Good luck trying to do this whole thing with only stock parts- you do realise that this challenge requires you to fly to another solar system, right?

Edited November 6, 2020 by jimmymcgoochie

[Dat Kerbal Dude]

On 10/11/2020 at 8:34 PM, GuessingEveryDay said:

We will longer accept any more players now.

typo?

[jimmymcgoochie]

@GuessingEveryDay Should KEI be allowed? I got around 700 science in two waves in less than a minute of elapsed game time just by using KEI to automate the first available science experiments from around the KSC, then using that to unlock all of the first four tech tree levels, then running KEI again with the newly unlocked experiments. I feel like that's against the spirit of the competition, but it's up to you to decide.

[GuessingEveryDay]

1 hour ago, jimmymcgoochie said:

@GuessingEveryDay Should KEI be allowed? I got around 700 science in two waves in less than a minute of elapsed game time just by using KEI to automate the first available science experiments from around the KSC, then using that to unlock all of the first four tech tree levels, then running KEI again with the newly unlocked experiments. I feel like that's against the spirit of the competition, but it's up to you to decide.

Yeah, that's definitely OP.