Space colonies

[mcwaffles2003]

So will we have colony tools for space colonies like we will for terrestrial colonies? 

[shdwlrd]

More than likely, whatever they may be.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

So will we have colony tools for space colonies like we will for terrestrial colonies? 

If you're talking about the BAE I think it was confirmed that it works either for orbital or surface bases, am I wrong @Nate Simpson?

 

Apart from that direct information when talking about the first phase Nate always tends to say both inflatable and assembled modules, I doubt it's an hard limit but I would generally say that inflatable modules are for orbital stations and assembled ones for surface bases.

[mcwaffles2003]

@shdwlrd @Master39 With all the planet colonization stuff one could figure it is a given... but I don't recall any mention or discussion so far addressing it.

10 minutes ago, Master39 said:

Apart from that direct information when talking about the first phase Nate always tends to say both inflatable and assembled modules, I doubt it's an hard limit but I would generally say that inflatable modules are for orbital stations and assembled ones for surface bases.

I always felt inflatable models were 1st gen terrestrial as starter colonies will have to be really lightweight and compact for transporting them and how immediate they are to setup. Assembled ones sound like phase 2.

This said Idk if there would be a restriction to deploying them off the ground/in space and even if you can I was more so wondering if there will be habitation and resource generation buildings that are specialized for space instead of on the ground.

We'll be making fueling stations, that's confirmed, but space cities? Where will the line between a space colony and space ship be drawn and if me can make space colonies can we fly them?

I'm also wondering what the impact on designs will be when some ships will be meant to never touch an atmosphere and live their whole existence in space. There wont be much purpose for aerodynamic shapes and the lack of that restraint should allow a new sort of meta for design to flourish.
 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

but I don't recall any mention or discussion so far addressing it.

My notes of the podcast are far from a transcription, but in the reply of the question about the colonies (47:10) Nate switches between orbital and surface colonies features without implying differences when he lists "orbital construction" as a colony feature.

 

1 hour ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

I was more so wondering if there will be habitation and resource generation buildings that are specialized for space instead of on the ground.

In the same replied Nate confirmed that, transcription:

Quote

They have their own unique power generation capabilities and needs and that leverages unique aspects of their locations.

And I would say that being in orbit is a pretty huge change in location with a lot of unique aspects.

 

1 hour ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

We'll be making fueling stations, that's confirmed, but space cities? Where will the line between a space colony and space ship be drawn and if me can make space colonies can we fly them?

I'm also wondering what the impact on designs will be when some ships will be meant to never touch an atmosphere and live their whole existence in space. There wont be much purpose for aerodynamic shapes and the lack of that restraint should allow a new sort of meta for design to flourish.

And that where space colonies will be useful, probably most of the efficient interplanetary engines are terrible as landing engines and so an outpost/hub will be needed, splitting the automation in 2, an automated route between the surface mine and the hub and another one between the hub and the final destination.

It's not difficult to immagine that if a planet has more than one useful resource, or you're operating multiple mines on the moons of a single planet then the hub start to become big and a local space colony has a niche to exist.

And suddenly I'm the feeling I'm talking about Kerbal Transporter Tycoon Deluxe which is, I think, the best design direction I can think of for Kerbal (in TTD the transportation industry it's just an excuse to let you mess around with railroads).

 

[KerikBalm]

2 hours ago, Master39 said:

Nate always tends to say both inflatable and assembled modules, I doubt it's an hard limit but I would generally say that inflatable modules are for orbital stations and assembled ones for surface bases.

16 minutes ago, Master39 said:

And that where space colonies will be useful, probably most of the efficient interplanetary engines are terrible as landing engines and so an outpost/hub will be needed, splitting the automation in 2, an automated route between the surface mine and the hub and another one between the hub and the final destination.

It's not difficult to immagine that if a planet has more than one useful resource, or you're operating multiple mines on the moons of a single planet then the hub start to become big and a local space colony has a niche to exist.

2 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

This said Idk if there would be a restriction to deploying them off the ground/in space and even if you can I was more so wondering if there will be habitation and resource generation buildings that are specialized for space instead of on the ground.

We'll be making fueling stations, that's confirmed, but space cities? Where will the line between a space colony and space ship be drawn and if me can make space colonies can we fly them?

I'm also wondering what the impact on designs will be when some ships will be meant to never touch an atmosphere and live their whole existence in space. There wont be much purpose for aerodynamic shapes and the lack of that restraint should allow a new sort of meta for design to flourish.
 

My feeling is that "inflatable" modules are rather "deployed" modules constructed somewhere else. The assembled modules would be constructed by the colony from a reserve of raw material.

Given that we will have supply routes, and orbital construction of large interstellar vessels, it seems reasonable that there will be oribtal assembly of new station/orbital colony modules from raw materials, which will probably be primarily supplied by automated routes.

But... I do wonder if there will be space based collection scoops. We have probably all seen the large orbital station over Jool with an interstellar ship docked: speculation is that the station is collecting He3 from Jool's atmosphere. The ISS technically orbits earth in the atmosphere, if we use the Exobase as the limit for the atmosphere, and not the kamran line (which I think is a better way to define an atmosphere's limit).

Regarding ships never meant to touch an atmosphere: we basically already have such ships in KSP. Dedicated Mun landers, Stations/ships assembled in orbit, etc. - launched in a fairing.

The thing about all stuff launched from Earth, is that they have to be able to sustain at least 1 G along one axis. An interplanteary/steller only craft that can't do more than 0.3 G's can be built much lighter than anything launched from Earth. I hope that this is a factor in KSP2, and we can make ships that would collapse under their own weight on Kerbin.

Then as to the line between space colonies and ships - I'm not sure there will be one. In KSP 1 you could build space planes in the VAB, and rockets in the SPH. Maybe the Building assembly editor(BAE?) ends up making things that aren't fundamentally different. My guess is that the BAE just allows you to deploy/construct modules (from available inventroy). The colonies apparently will have parts and physics modelling... so I could imagine that you can mix and match colony parts and rocket parts.

Perhaps the large interstellar craft are made with a combination of rocketry parts, and colony parts, so you can just fly an orbital station to the next star (and already start refueling your He3 tanks from a local gas giant???)

We will see. It seems interesting, as long as the engine and gameplay mechanics are solid, and its mod friendly (I will rescale everything by 3-4x right away), I can overlook/turn to mods to fix various scientific oversights by the devs.

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

My feeling is that "inflatable" modules are rather "deployed" modules constructed somewhere else. The assembled modules would be constructed by the colony from a reserve of raw material.

The reply about phases starts around 58.10 and it's unambiguous:

Quote

Phase 1 parts are parts that are brought on the veichle and are either inflated or assembled on site

 

1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

speculation is that the station is collecting He3 from Jool's atmosphere.

Isn't official news that that station is an orbital shipyard? In all later appearances it's always in a way higher orbit if not directly around a moon of Jool. Anyway scooping gas giants could be an interesting mechanic.

 

1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

The thing about all stuff launched from Earth, is that they have to be able to sustain at least 1 G along one axis. An interplanteary/steller only craft that can't do more than 0.3 G's can be built much lighter than anything launched from Earth. I hope that this is a factor in KSP2, and we can make ships that would collapse under their own weight on Kerbin.

In one of the last question of the podcast they explained that the fine balance and design between power requirements, thrust and heat dissipation will be the main design concern of the big orbital-based ships (maybe along attitude control and radiation shielding?), I think designs like the Venture Star from Avatar and the Hermes from The Martian will be more than common.

 

1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

Then as to the line between space colonies and ships - I'm not sure there will be one. In KSP 1 you could build space planes in the VAB, and rockets in the SPH. Maybe the Building assembly editor(BAE?) ends up making things that aren't fundamentally different. My guess is that the BAE just allows you to deploy/construct modules (from available inventroy). The colonies apparently will have parts and physics modelling... so I could imagine that you can mix and match colony parts and rocket parts.

Perhaps the large interstellar craft are made with a combination of rocketry parts, and colony parts, so you can just fly an orbital station to the next star (and already start refueling your He3 tanks from a local gas giant???)

Weight constrains? I don't see the colony parts being designed to be lightest as possible to allow for more DV but more around being sturdy and made with readily available materials, mined nearby. 
I can totally see that to be an excuse to balance the game so that you can use the interstellar engines to move colonies inside a system and add an end-game Kerbstein drive that allows to build interstellar capable colonies.

[Nate Simpson]

7 hours ago, Master39 said:

If you're talking about the BAE I think it was confirmed that it works either for orbital or surface bases, am I wrong @Nate Simpson?

Yep, this is correct. The BAE is just a VAB for colonies, and colonies can be built on the surface or in orbit. As has been speculated elsewhere in this thread, the BAE has its own parts palette that is populated based on various constraints (tech tree advancement, colony population, presence of nearby not-yet-unpacked phase 1 colony modules, presence of various construction-blocking capabilities like ISRU). On the surface, the BAE includes the local topology as a building constraint.

[shdwlrd]

12 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

Then as to the line between space colonies and ships - I'm not sure there will be one. In KSP 1 you could build space planes in the VAB, and rockets in the SPH. Maybe the Building assembly editor(BAE?) ends up making things that aren't fundamentally different. My guess is that the BAE just allows you to deploy/construct modules (from available inventroy). The colonies apparently will have parts and physics modelling... so I could imagine that you can mix and match colony parts and rocket parts.

Perhaps the large interstellar craft are made with a combination of rocketry parts, and colony parts, so you can just fly an orbital station to the next star (and already start refueling your He3 tanks from a local gas giant???)

 

10 hours ago, Master39 said:

Weight constrains? I don't see the colony parts being designed to be lightest as possible to allow for more DV but more around being sturdy and made with readily available materials, mined nearby. 
I can totally see that to be an excuse to balance the game so that you can use the interstellar engines to move colonies inside a system and add an end-game Kerbstein drive that allows to build interstellar capable colonies.

I think the biggest difference between an interstellar ship and an orbital colony would be the total mass of the assembly and the fragility of the whole structure. Sure you can push around an orbital colony like a ship, but would it be efficient enough to do so beyond station keeping, will it break apart if any significant forces are applied to it, can you secure the structure enough to do so.

I can definitely see interstellar ships being absorbed by and converted into an orbital colony. An orbital colony as a ship, it's possible. (Unless the devs says no, you can't do that.) We will have to see if its practical or not.

PS. I realize that this is KSP and practicality doesn't always matter, if you're allowed to, someone will do it. The practicality I'm referring to is during the course of the normal progression gameplay, not sandbox gameplay.

Edited October 22, 2020 by shdwlrd

[shdwlrd]

I've been wondering if there will be a hard limit on the total area you can use. Nate posted an image of a city from Futurama hinting to what we can look forward to. That really got me thinking. Can we build a colony large enough to create slide show type of gameplay when you get close or will you be limited to X km cubed? I would love to see a group of players create a WH40K style and sized hive city.

Another thing I've been thinking about is when you add to or edit your colony, does the changes take effect immediately or do they happen in game time.

[mcwaffles2003]

12 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

I've been wondering if there will be a hard limit on the total area you can use. Nate posted an image of a city from Futurama hinting to what we can look forward to. That really got me thinking. Can we build a colony large enough to create slide show type of gameplay when you get close or will you be limited to X km cubed? I would love to see a group of players create a WH40K style and sized hive city.

Another thing I've been thinking about is when you add to or edit your colony, does the changes take effect immediately or do they happen in game time.

Wonder if we will be seeing mega structures in time.

Im just hoping to make something like a mothership out of homeworld or the pillar of autumn

Spoiler

 

                                                                                                                                                   

 

 

lil drones mining and bringing supplies as it spits out new ships. Can't wait to see everyones star destroyers.

Edited October 23, 2020 by mcwaffles2003

[shdwlrd]

3 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Wonder if we will be seeing mega structures in time.

Im just hoping to make something like a mothership out of homeworld or the pillar of autumn

  Reveal hidden contents

 

                                                                                                                                                   

 

 

lil drones mining and bringing supplies as it spits out new ships. Can't wait to see everyones star destroyers.

I'm sure we will some mega structures in do time. The smaller ships from (insert sci-fi franchise here) should show up fairly quick. Since we should be able to build with larger blocks, larger ships will be possible, and start showing up.

The Homeworld motherships is a different story. They are so huge, (kilometers long and/or wide) that they may not be possible to do at full scale. The pictured banana ship is 3km long, and that is one of the smaller motherships. The Pillar of Autumn is 1170m long and 352m wide, that I can see being done easier and more readily.

Seeing the parts available so far for stations and colonies, I can see a replica of the Star Fleet spacedock making an appearance fairly quickly.

Spoiler

 

 

[KerikBalm]

On 10/22/2020 at 2:16 PM, Master39 said:

Isn't official news that that station is an orbital shipyard?

Yes, I know it was a shipyard. The question was why would you have a shipyard orbiting jool, as opposed to a low gravity moon in a shallow gravity well. Speculation was that jool should have He3 and H in abundance, the interstellar ICF drive should use He3 and/or isotopes of H. Coincidence that the shipyard is there?

Speculation is that the station scoops H, or a smaller ship does, and automated supply run have been set up to the shipyard

On 10/22/2020 at 5:16 PM, Nate Simpson said:

As has been speculated elsewhere in this thread, the BAE has its own parts palette 

But can you put normal rocket parts on your colony, and adjust its orbit? Are those parts excluded from its palette?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, KerikBalm said:

Yes, I know it was a shipyard. The question was why would you have a shipyard orbiting jool, as opposed to a low gravity moon in a shallow gravity well. Speculation was that jool should have He3 and H in abundance, the interstellar ICF drive should use He3 and/or isotopes of H. Coincidence that the shipyard is there?

Speculation is that the station scoops H, or a smaller ship does, and automated supply run have been set up to the shipyard

On the other hand Jool has some very different moons and Laythe, I can totally see a Jool "local economy" with different mines for different materials on various moons (as well as scooping).

[KerikBalm]

On 10/22/2020 at 2:16 PM, Master39 said:

Weight constrains? I don't see the colony parts being designed to be lightest as possible to allow for more DV but more around being sturdy and made with readily available materials, mined nearby.

Well, obviously phase 1 modules are light enough to move around space practically. So the question is if you can deploy the modules as part if the ship carrying the phase 1 modules.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

So the question is if you can deploy the modules as part if the ship carrying the phase 1 modules.

I'm already thinking about having an interstellar colonization ship (Master Aerospace Colonial & Research Orbital Space Ship, shortened to Macross I) deploying colony modules and cannibalising its own engines for materials and becoming the first orbital station/hub, then colony and then shipyard in a new system.

 

Then again I think that such ships will need a way to store a large number of crafts in containers or similar to avoid bloating them with thousands of parts for every needed lander and probe and that colonies will need a similar system to recover and store, refurbish, recycle or modify  reusable crafts.

[mcwaffles2003]

3 hours ago, Master39 said:

Then again I think that such ships will need a way to store a large number of crafts in containers or similar to avoid bloating them with thousands of parts for every needed lander and probe and that colonies will need a similar system to recover and store, refurbish, recycle or modify  reusable crafts.

I bet all parts get simplified back into their base resources at a cost, or even more likely to me, there's a "parts" currency. I would enjoy the system you're talking about though. having stocked hangars would be pretty cool

[SOXBLOX]

On 10/22/2020 at 7:16 AM, Master39 said:

...attitude control...

It's gonna take days to flip some of these big ships around. Either your RCS isn't powerful enough, or your frame isn't strong enough. And if you do flip it fast, g-forces in the extremities will be pretty nasty.

[Guest]

On 10/25/2020 at 12:52 PM, mcwaffles2003 said:

I bet all parts get simplified back into their base resources at a cost, or even more likely to me, there's a "parts" currency. I would enjoy the system you're talking about though. having stocked hangars would be pretty cool

I don't know if I would bet on that, let me explain.

From this reply:

On 10/22/2020 at 5:16 PM, Nate Simpson said:

Yep, this is correct. The BAE is just a VAB for colonies, and colonies can be built on the surface or in orbit. As has been speculated elsewhere in this thread, the BAE has its own parts palette that is populated based on various constraints (tech tree advancement, colony population, presence of nearby not-yet-unpacked phase 1 colony modules, presence of various construction-blocking capabilities like ISRU). On the surface, the BAE includes the local topology as a building constraint.

We know:

• "The BAE is just a VAB for colonies"
• There is a system to detect nearby packed module

 

Pure and uncontained speculation from now on

They have implemented what basically is a "pocket VAB" acting on already loaded vessels and a system to detect modules (and resources? The BAE will be able to craft modules too, we already know that) from nearby crafts (inventories?), going from there to being able to open that same "pocket VAB" on any craft with stricter limitations based on the environment (and the skill of the engineer doing the EVA?) it's not a big jump and neither is recovering that same craft inside a VAB to lift those limitations.

Obviously my speculation piggybacks on the idea that station and colonies are just crafts like others and not something completely different and the biggest counter point I can see to that is that Nate put inflatable and assembled into an hypothetical "phase 1" and that leaves not much space for "traditionally docked" KSP1 stations (which are just normal crafts we arbitrary decided are stations or bases).

End of speculation.

 

I didn't notice this until now:

On 10/22/2020 at 5:16 PM, Nate Simpson said:

construction-blocking capabilities like ISRU

This can either support or destroy my speculation about mining from the other thread.

It can be seen as a "you will mine from the colony building itself" or as "IRSU limit construction capabilities, it's a good idea to build mines in outposts far from the main colony".

[Pthigrivi]

6 hours ago, Master39 said:

I didn't notice this until now:

This can either support or destroy my speculation about mining from the other thread.

It can be seen as a "you will mine from the colony building itself" or as "IRSU limit construction capabilities, it's a good idea to build mines in outposts far from the main colony".

This may be pie in the sky but Im sort of hoping things like mining and science collection can be done somewhat autonomously, that the player can set markers on the surface and tell kerbals "mine here" or "collect xyz science here"  so long as you've provided capable vehicles, and they'll either repeat a route you've run or drive themselves out and do the work without having to micromanage every part of the process. It would also help make colonies look more active if kerbals are bustling about more or less of their own accord. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Pthigrivi

[shdwlrd]

35 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

This may be pie in the sky but Im sort of hoping things like mining and science collection can be done somewhat autonomously, that the player can set markers on the surface and tell kerbals "mine here" or "collect xyz science here"  so long as you've provided capable vehicles, and they'll either repeat a route you've run or drive themselves out and do the work without having to micromanage every part of the process. It would also help make colonies look more active if kerbals are bustling about more or less of their own accord. 

I have a feeling that you will have to setup a site to mined. After its starts producing the resources you need, you will have to do at least one trip to collect and drop off the resources from that site. From there, you can repeat that trip automatically.

Science I don't think it will be like KSP1. The way Nate talks about it, it doesn't seem to be the main driver in the game. It won't be lost, but it won't be your only focus and necessary to unlock new tech.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

This may be pie in the sky but Im sort of hoping things like mining and science collection can be done somewhat autonomously, that the player can set markers on the surface and tell kerbals "mine here" or "collect xyz science here"  so long as you've provided capable vehicles, and they'll either repeat a route you've run or drive themselves out and do the work without having to micromanage every part of the process. It would also help make colonies look more active if kerbals are bustling about more or less of their own accord.

Just like Shdwlrd said, with the already confirmed automation of resource transfer it's just a matter of setting a miner craft/outpost and then building an automating a transport between the two.

On the science collecting part I don't know if I want it to be automated.

Let me explain, I hope that the game sets a real progression as in: robotic exploration => "Apollo style" manned missions => "the Martian style" manned missions (longer stays with an expendable base) => robotic prospecting / site selection => permanent outpost then progressing into a fully fledged colony.

With most of the pre-colony stuff done more or less like in KSP1 (with the exception of inflatable/deployable habitats).

In a progression like that I can see at least 2 different "sources" of science gameplay, the exploration of new places (the science points of KSP1) and the scientific infrastructure you can build like telescopes, space stations with different laboratories, research outposts on planets and so on and I would love to see them treated differently, we've already seen what happens in using the lab as a mere multiplier for "exploration science" or a tool to farm "regular" science points. 

I'd like to see exploration remainin more or less fully manual while the infrastructure following it offers missions to set it up while being mostly automatic after that.

 

[Mikenike]

On 10/22/2020 at 5:27 AM, KerikBalm said:

I hope that this is a factor in KSP2, and we can make ships that would collapse under their own weight on Kerbin.

Make it togglable. I want to launch a 5 kiloton craft to space, why, cause I can.

[shdwlrd]

17 minutes ago, Mikenike said:

Make it togglable. I want to launch a 5 kiloton craft to space, why, cause I can.

You can do that now in KSP. You just need enough boosters, proper strutting, and proper staging.

[Pthigrivi]

2 hours ago, Master39 said:

Just like Shdwlrd said, with the already confirmed automation of resource transfer it's just a matter of setting a miner craft/outpost and then building an automating a transport between the two.

On the science collecting part I don't know if I want it to be automated.

Let me explain, I hope that the game sets a real progression as in: robotic exploration => "Apollo style" manned missions => "the Martian style" manned missions (longer stays with an expendable base) => robotic prospecting / site selection => permanent outpost then progressing into a fully fledged colony.

With most of the pre-colony stuff done more or less like in KSP1 (with the exception of inflatable/deployable habitats).

In a progression like that I can see at least 2 different "sources" of science gameplay, the exploration of new places (the science points of KSP1) and the scientific infrastructure you can build like telescopes, space stations with different laboratories, research outposts on planets and so on and I would love to see them treated differently, we've already seen what happens in using the lab as a mere multiplier for "exploration science" or a tool to farm "regular" science points. 

I'd like to see exploration remainin more or less fully manual while the infrastructure following it offers missions to set it up while being mostly automatic after that.

 

That's probably right, though it's hard to say without knowing more about how Intercept is structuring the rest of the game. It stands to reason that if they've got a scheme for doing repeat transfers of resources from colony to colony this same process could work for mining outposts. Have we gotten any indication about whether this process will be auto-piloted or "magic?" I can see advantages and disadvantages to both--it's obviously easier to program magic resource transfers, less worry about causing problems with blocked docking ports, accidental collisions, but if the vehicles were 'real' seeing that automated activity would go a long way toward making colonies feel more alive. Magic transfers also beg some questions about reusable transfer vehicles--do we have to pay for the virtual transfer vehicles too? If they were staged are the stages "recoverable"? What happens to the manual 'proof of concept' vehicle? 

On the science front I'm mainly worried about some of the insane grind KSP1 induces. One thing I would like to see automated in some way are the experiments themselves. Nate has said there will be lots of new ways to collect science and that sounds great unless we're manually clicking through dozens of parts every time we enter an area with new science. I'd be perfectly happy if once landed you could just command kerbals to "collect science" and they'd hop out and perform whatever experiments you've loaded and brought with you on their own. Ditto with stuff like planting flags, it be nice to just click "plant flag here" and they'd run out and do it. So maybe Im just talking about autonomous kerbals and not autonomous vehicles? That seems much more feasible. The flying and landing part of KSP is crazy fun. All the manual clicking and micromanagement is less so, and especially if we're working in hundreds of kerbals and new colony resource management mechanics there seems very little room for it. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Pthigrivi