Space Tourism Bully Market (A Finance Challenge)

[ralanboyle]

4 hours ago, camacju said:

Duna ticket costs 4161 and the Ike landing costs 3212

Good job @camacju, you now have the lowest price to Duna and the first trip offered to Ike. I will have to revisit this now that there is competition! 

[RoninFrog]

Here's the Pandemunium Kerbuck to the Mun.  It stays in one piece, so refurbishing and reusing should be really easy.

Original cost: 112,820
Refurbishing cost: 58886
Price per ticket: 3099   (19 passengers)

Spoiler

@Hotel26

KerbalX: http://kerbalx.com/crafts/65713

Edited November 22, 2020 by RoninFrog

[ralanboyle]

24 minutes ago, RoninFrog said:

Original cost: 112,820
Refurbishing cost: 58886
Price per ticket: 3099   (19 passengers)

I am confused or I don't have enough information to know what you've done here. 58,886 can't be your refurbishment cost because it is more than half the total cost of this SSTO. Your craft uses Nukes so the value of your recovered ship gets divided by 2. We need either: the post mission page showing the recovered value of the ship. Or (since you landed on the runway) a shot of the ship empty of fuel in the hanger.) Then the value of the recovered (or empty) ship will be divided by two, then subtracted from the launch cost. The difference will then be divided by 18. Unless you are hiding a module somewhere, you have 18 paying customers, not 19. 

[RoninFrog]

11 minutes ago, ralanboyle said:

I am confused or I don't have enough information to know what you've done here. 58,886 can't be your refurbishment cost because it is more than half the total cost of this SSTO. Your craft uses Nukes so the value of your recovered ship gets divided by 2. We need either: the post mission page showing the recovered value of the ship. Or (since you landed on the runway) a shot of the ship empty of fuel in the hanger.) Then the value of the recovered (or empty) ship will be divided by two, then subtracted from the launch cost. The difference will then be divided by 18. Unless you are hiding a module somewhere, you have 18 paying customers, not 19.

58886 is half the cost of the dry ship (107868) plus fuel (4952).  The ship can hold 20 kerbals (16 in the crew cabin, 4 in the cockpit), so there are 19 passengers plus a pilot.  58886 divided by 19 passengers is 3099 per ticket.

It wasn't done in career mode, but I landed it on the runway which should mean 100% recovery value for the dry ship.

 

[ralanboyle]

52 minutes ago, RoninFrog said:

58886 is half the cost of the dry ship (107868) plus fuel (4952).  The ship can hold 20 kerbals (16 in the crew cabin, 4 in the cockpit), so there are 19 passengers plus a pilot.  58886 divided by 19 passengers is 3099 per ticket.

Okay cool, I'm tracking all of that except for why you are adding 4952 of fuel to your recovery value. 

[RoninFrog]

4 minutes ago, ralanboyle said:

recovery value. 

Recovery cost. 

[RoninFrog]

1 hour ago, ralanboyle said:

Okay cool, I'm tracking all of that except for why you are adding 4952 of fuel to your recovery value. 

(112820 - 53934) / 19 = 3099 per ticket.

I think I was doing the math slightly differently, but it works out the same in the end.

[ralanboyle]

10 minutes ago, RoninFrog said:

I think I was doing the math slightly differently, but it works out the same in the end.

Well there's no wrong way to do math as long as you end up in the right place (not true). Not gonna lie, I'm now about half drunk and just ready to move on. The run looks good to me, congratulations! Your tickets can now be purchased on the OP. 

[camacju]

@ralanboyle Here's my submission for a Mun mission.

https://imgur.com/a/koj9szL

Costs 42080 in VAB, overall form of craft is very similar to Duna mission.

Craft costs 42080 in VAB

Jet booster recovered for 32731

Solid booster discarded (it's actually cheaper to just discard it than it is to add a probe core and parachutes)

Lander recovered for 4794/2 giving a total cost of 6952

Lander has one Mk1 command pod and two Mk1 crew cabins, so it seats four. Cost per ticket is 1738 funds

[ralanboyle]

On 11/24/2020 at 12:18 AM, camacju said:

Cost per ticket is 1738 funds

Solid work as usual. Added to board. 

[camacju]

Ok I'm almost done with a run where I go to Bop, Pol, and Minmus. In this run I managed to get from Kerbin to Jool for only 855 m/s using lots of gravity assists.

[camacju]

Ok so I'm gonna finish the mission maybe this weekend. But I do have screenshots of the low delta-v route to Jool.

848 m/s burn to get a Mun assist. This gets me a second Mun assist that ejects me into a 5:4 resonance with Kerbin. I could have gotten by with a smaller initial burn but oh well

Picture of second Mun assist

Five years and four orbits later I intersect Kerbin and Mun again to get a 4:5 resonance with Kerbin

I bend the trajectory around as much as possible using Mun

Four years and five orbits later, I encounter Kerbin and the Mun a second time, dropping my periapsis below Eve

Three years later, I encounter Eve and raise my orbit above Kerbin. I didn't hit it exactly at the descending node so my previous course correction was relatively large.

Nine years later, I encounter Kerbin and bring myself into a 3:1 resonance with Kerbin. No Mun assist this time - I don't need it

Three years later, I encounter Kerbin for the final time and get a Jool encounter. Jool wasn't quite in the right place so I needed to raise my orbit quite a bit higher than normal.

Final course correction - another relatively large plane change

Tylo and Laythe assists to capture around Jool

And here we are - from LKO to Jool orbit for 855 m/s! I think this is a record actually. The lowest that I've seen before is just over 1000 m/s.

Final route taken is Kerbin-Mun-Mun-Kerbin-Mun-Kerbin-Mun-Eve-Kerbin-Kerbin-Jool.

This means that it's actually cheaper to get into Jool orbit than it is to get into Mun or Minmus orbit. Or, for that matter, any other planet or moon. (If you try aerobraking into orbit from Eve or Duna using this trick, the fuel spent to pull your orbit out of the atmo is going to be greater than whatever is used for course corrections).

Edited November 26, 2020 by camacju

[camacju]

https://imgur.com/a/5K9b6YC

@ralanboyle Another combo pack mission - Minmus, Bop, and Pol. Cost of a ticket is (46882-33138-6062/2)/3=3571 funds.

55 oxidizer used for Pol landing, 59 used for Bop landing, and 64 for Minmus landing. That means 1104 funds for Pol landing, 1184 funds for Bop landing, and 1283 funds for Minmus landing.

 

[ralanboyle]

4 hours ago, camacju said:

https://imgur.com/a/5K9b6YC

@ralanboyle Another combo pack mission - Minmus, Bop, and Pol. Cost of a ticket is (46882-33138-6062/2)/3=3571 funds.

55 oxidizer used for Pol landing, 59 used for Bop landing, and 64 for Minmus landing. That means 1104 funds for Pol landing, 1184 funds for Bop landing, and 1283 funds for Minmus landing.

 

So, it’s $3,571 for a multistop ticket, landing at all of those places? Do I understand that correctly? 

Edited November 30, 2020 by ralanboyle

[camacju]

Yes

[ralanboyle]

Okay,

I didn't realize you were visiting multiple locations and then dividing the total cost among them. Upon review, I see that is what you did with Duna/Ike also. That is not the intention of this challenge. The intention is that tourists can buy a ticket to a destination and return. Using your method, a tourist who buys a ticket to Pol for $1,104 will be stranded their unless he also buys a ticket to  Bop and Minmus for a total of $3,571.  

With that in mind, I will post your ticket price to Bop, Pol, and Minmus as $3,571 since that is the total cost of a safe round trip. I will also adjust Duna/Ike. 

However, I hate to see a successful mission go unappreciated so I will also open a "Multistop" category for missions like this. Maybe someone will do a budget friendly "Jool 5." I am going to limit this new category to "No ISRU," in order to keep it from taking away from the original intent, since that scenario is specifically addressed in the OP. 

Correct me if I have misunderstood your math. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by ralanboyle

[camacju]

That's fine. I'll try for some single missions now I guess

[ralanboyle]

Alright, I scaled up the suborbital jet launch system. The math ends up at $1,175/ticket (formula below) . I am very sure that with some finesse it can be under $1,000 but I'm more of a brute force guy. 

Launch - 138,265 Recover Jet - 125,258 Recover Ship - 7,211/2= 3,605 Tickets - 8 Ticket Cost = 1,175

 

 

[ralanboyle]

While making that last video I had lots of thoughts on increasing cost efficiency. I slightly upgraded my Jet Launch system and really maxed it out with a 24 ticket Mun/Minmus ship. I barely got it back under control before it was destroyed in the atmosphere! Because of economies of scale I got the Mun/minmus ticket price down to $770. 

Launch - 173,706; Jet Recovery - 146,209; Ship Recovery - 18035/2=9,017; Tickets - 24; Ticket Cost - 770

 

[DerkyJerkyWreaksHavoc]

On 11/13/2020 at 8:00 PM, ralanboyle said:

Space Tourism is alive and well on Kerbin! Unfortunately for you, lots of us are vying for the green guy’s greenbacks.

The bottom line:

Take tourists to the surface of celestial bodies as cheaply as possible.

Pricing is calculated per ticket and adjusted based on spacecraft recovery and refurbishment.

The broad strokes:

The market is fiercely competitive so your tickets will be sold “at cost.” KSP does not take refurbishment into consideration, but we will since that is a huge part of space travel. (Formula below)

There will be separate leaderboards for each destination that people submit. I expect more people will submit missions to Mun and Minmus than Tylo and Eve. In order to reduce the grindiness of submitting several ticket prices: If your ship can obviously land at other locations which require less dV and have less gravity then you can submit the pricing based on the accomplished mission. For example: If you land on Duna, that ship could have landed on Minmus, so you can note this and count the pricing toward both Minmus and Duna. Obviously, this is not going to be the cheapest way to get to Minmus, but it is an option.  dV will be based on a dV map; if you want to get fancy with gravity assists, you'll have to actually accomplish the mission. If you require refueling, your ship must have the appropriate comms/power to refuel at each location you submit. 

Yes, your tourists have to return home safely.  

The fine print:

Missions need to be run in Career mode and include the starting cost and recovery earnings. Due to the in-game recovery calculation, which is based on distance from KSC, you need to run this in career mode. If you really want to use sandbox mode, I’ll allow it if you land all stages back at KSC and provide adequate documentation to support your calculations.

All kerbals must travel inside cabins. No Command Seats.

Your spacecraft will be piloted. The pilot is not a paying passenger so subtract 1 from the total number of seats aboard. Your tourists don’t want to fly on a probe. If you are going to refuel or repack parachutes you must take an engineer (2 seats are now filled with crew). 

Processed resources do not count toward recovery cost. For example, you can't mine and process 100T of Monoprop on Minmus and return it for a profit. If you mine for fuel, you have to use that fuel. 

Airplanes using jet engines require much less refurbishment than rockets, so you can count the full amount shown at recovery if the craft being recovered has only jet engines or electric motors. If the craft has rocket engines, nukes or ion drives (or RAPIERs in closed cycle mode) then your recovery earning is cut in half (50%) to cover the cost of refurbishing the craft. Do not exploit this by decoupling rocket engines for no reason. I am not making a specific rule about when you can or can't decouple stages because I want you to have freedom to be creative. However, the community will recognize the exploit if you fly a hybrid spacecraft, then stage off your rockets for no real reason.  I'll make a rule if this gets to be a problem. 

No part mods or physics mods allowed. DLC is fine. Part clipping within reason is fine but don't go stacking tanks in tanks in tanks...

The cost of your ticket is: The cost of the launched craft (L) minus the recovery earnings (R) divided by the number of tickets sold (T). So (L-R)/T Remember, that R needs to be divided by 2 before calculating ticket price if it uses rockets. If you are recovering stages separately then find the sum of the recovery earnings for all landed stages, then subtract it from L, then divide by T.  

Missions need to be well documented. At a minimum, we need to see the craft with costs in the VAB/SPH, enroute, landed, at recovery, recovery cost screen. 

Don't use @vyznev's silly SSTO loophole with a "base" that sits on the runway. For that matter, don't spend your time looking for loopholes, just make an awesome ship. 

 

I will make leaderboards as ticket prices are published.  Come run me out of business, competition is good!

-Single Destination Tickets-

Mun:

$770 ralanboyle

$1,738 @camacju

$3,099 @RoninFrog

Minmus:

$770 ralanboyle

$1,657 @camacju

Duna: 

$6,661 ralanboyle  

$7,373 @camacju

Ike: 

$7,373 @camacju

Bop:

$3,571 @camacju

Pol: 

$3,571 @camacju

 

 

-Multi-Destination Tickets- (ISRU Not Allowed)

Bop-Pol-Minmus:

$3,571 @camacju

Duna-Ike: 

$7,373 @camacju

Can our SSTO's Use Heat shields as wings (Like Stratzenblitz's Mach 6.5 propeller)?

[ralanboyle]

1 hour ago, DAFATRONALDO2007 IN SPACE said:

Can our SSTO's Use Heat shields as wings (Like Stratzenblitz's Mach 6.5 propeller)?

You are welcome to use an SSTO.  I am not familiar with the one you mention. Note that SSTOs will not be very competitive due to the refurbishment cost of 50%. 

[camacju]

@ralanboyle I have another submission for a Mun ticket. Craft costs 65730 in SPH, crew capsule is recovered for 10233 and jet booster is recovered for 48878. Net cost is 6619 and dividing this by the 16 passenger slots in the crew capsule (the pilot sits in a Mk1 capsule in the service bay), total cost comes out to 414 funds per ticket. Count this for Minmus as well please

Note that the lander's engine is detached for a very good reason! I only included two parachutes on the relatively heavy lander and if the engine and a fuel tank are not detached, it will land too hard and break. This isn't an attempt to cheese the challenge; otherwise, I would only detach the engine and not a fuel tank also.

65730 in VAB

Ascent on rapiers - I do not switch them to closed cycle because the lander's engine is more efficient anyway.

At 1550 m/s I turn on the rocket and wait for the jets to flame out

In orbit

After correction burn - rocket fuel in the plane part is almost all used up

This is 30-40 m/s more efficient than doing a standard free return trajectory. Probably not necessary but a mission with only one gravity assist is a bit boring.

Detaching the full lander from the plane. The plane will now glide to KSC without using any more oxidizer.

Mun descent

Landed at Mun

Back in orbit

After a few aerobraking passes I aim for KSC

I

I need to learn how to aim farther south. I use a combination of engine thrust and body lift to slow down. For some reason this craft flies way better with the service bay closed, and can even scrub velocity faster.

Parachutes deployed and engine detached. The descent rate with the engine and fuel tank not detached is high enough to explode the engine and fuel tanks.

However the crew cabin has a higher impact tolerance and everything survives.

10223 funds back

Plane aims for KSC

Taxiing to runway to get better recovery value

On runway

48878 funds back

Edited December 6, 2020 by camacju

[ralanboyle]

9 hours ago, camacju said:

I have another submission for a Mun ticket

Another great run! You are back on top for Mun and Minmus. 

You made some interesting choices, I hadn't thought about pushing the booster all the way around the moon for the free return... 

[camacju]

Reducing the fuel load in the plane and putting it on an orbit-once-around would be more fuel efficient but the lander would still need a detachable tank with no way to recover it. This way when the tank is exhausted I can glide it back to KSC and recover it. Since the plane bits are a small part of the total wet mass of the ship it isn't that much less efficient and I feel like the gains from recovering the entire tank outweigh the fuel losses.

[ralanboyle]

I was all proud of myself for my new design but I didn't do the math and it ended up slightly MORE expensive than my last design!

41 Mun tickets at a price of 787 each.