Horses and Cattle VS Alien Wildlife

[Spacescifi]

 

Many Earth worlds is a common scifi trope.

The scenario: Alien Earth world with wildlife that is predisposed for agility and lethality, at the expense of strength.

In other words, large animals like elephants are not around. The largest land animal is the size of your average dog. 

It is common for land creatures to have venom or antivenom abilites. Even birds, which is most alarming. Birds are the apex predators since they just swarm bite creatures with venom till they pass out.

Horses and cattle sound ideal for alien earth colonization. But when dealing with alien wildlife this menacing?

I dunno...figure out a bird antivenom before you send the cattle.

Lots of shotguns too I suppose. What do you think?

[starcaptain]

Just because they have bioweapons doesn't mean they're immune to selective breeding and husbandry. Domesticate and eat the locals, I say.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 hour ago, starcaptain said:

Domesticate and eat the locals, I say

You are what you eat; long enough, you become a local!

OP - Horses and Cattle sound great; for eating.  Most of your space-faring accountants and hairdressers won't know how to ride a horse.  But - given that you want to fly them there; they will probably do the Spanish/New Mexico thing and run away from the explorer/colonizer that brings them... and then breed and succeed.

Have you thought about what happens when the ship has a casualty and you lose your futuretechgravitygenerator?  Those 2k pound meat bags become hull-smashing projectiles if not properly restrained.

[kerbiloid]

Any known venomous species irl bigger than a snake?

The bigger is the beast, the more it's mechanical rather than chemical.

[Nuke]

3 hours ago, starcaptain said:

Just because they have bioweapons doesn't mean they're immune to selective breeding and husbandry. Domesticate and eat the locals, I say.

so long as you dont have a death slug situation.

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

You are what you eat; long enough, you become a local!

OP - Horses and Cattle sound great; for eating.  Most of your space-faring accountants and hairdressers won't know how to ride a horse.  But - given that you want to fly them there; they will probably do the Spanish/New Mexico thing and run away from the explorer/colonizer that brings them... and then breed and succeed.

Have you thought about what happens when the ship has a casualty and you lose your futuretechgravitygenerator?  Those 2k pound meat bags become hull-smashing projectiles if not properly restrained.

 

Regarding hull smashing...you do not even need fancy antigrav for that.

Metal hoof shoes and a magnetic floor will do.

Dial down the magnetic force so they can still walk en route to the planet, dial it up before landing so they cannot even lift a leg. Also tranquilize the cattle before the final descent fall, since otherwise they will send bodily fluids all over the ceiling as they feel themselves dropping out of fear.

The spaceship propulsion system is uber, so much that the ship can slow to a gradual stop from orbit, hover, and fall straight down like a rock to where it will land, slowing by retrothrusting on the way down.

After landing the crew prepares to awaken the cattle and move out.

27 minutes ago, Nuke said:

so long as you dont have a death slug situation.

What is that?

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

Any known venomous species irl bigger than a snake?

The bigger is the beast, the more it's mechanical rather than chemical.

 

Again, this is not our Earth.

There is nothing in physics I am aware of that precludes venemous beasts from being larger.

We are just fortunate animals on Earth are not predisposed to all being lethal.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Piscator]

Seems a bit of a stretch to postulate an alien biosphere biochemically similar enough for their venoms to work on earth creatures, but working under this assumption, I don't really see the need to introduce our fauna at all. On the one hand - as has already been pointed out - you could try to work with what is already there and adapted to the ecosystem, on the other hand, why would you even need cattle and horses at all? If your technology is advanced enough to make an interstellar trip, it should be safe to assume you have more advanced modes of transportation or nutrition at your disposal.

If you're set on your space cowboy scenario because yee-haw, here's something you might want to try:

- Put your lifestock in protective suits

- Pick an island, sterilize it, start from scratch (shoot any returning fauna on sight)

- Ask the Australians how they do it

[kerbiloid]

22 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Again, this is not our Earth.

Chemistry is same everywhere.

It's energetically more benefitial for a large animal to spend all its venomous fluids inside for better performance and to mechanically destroy the target.

1. Small animals are too lightweight to exceed the strength of the target material with mechanical hit.
2, Small animals are more primitive (lesser amount of cells), more silly (same for neurons), more short-living. So, their optimal species strategy is a zerg rush, easy come- easy go, and so on, as anyway it's easier to produce ten more than repair the existing one.

So, unless it's a large venomous lurking octopus, poisoning the water around his lair, unlikely a big species will be actively venomous.
(Of course, this doesn't mean its interbal parts can't. You can't just eat a polar bear liver due to high concentration of vitamine A).

  

9 minutes ago, Piscator said:

If you're set on your space cowboy scenario because yee-haw, here's something you might want to try:

- Kill'em with fire.

Edited December 14, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

1 minute ago, kerbiloid said:

Chemistry is same everywhere.

It's energetically more benefitial for a large animal to spend all its venomous fluids inside for better performance and to mechanically destroy the target.

1. Small animals are too lightweight to exceed the strength of the target material with mechanical hit.
2, Small animals are more primitive (lesser amount of cells), more silly (same for neurons), more short-living. So, their optimal species strategy is a zerg rush, easy come- easy go, and so on, as anyway it's easier to produce ten more than repair the existing one.

So, unless it's a large venomous lurking octopus, poisoning the water around his lair, unlikely a big species will be actively venomous.
(Of course, this doesn't mean its interbal parts can't. You can't just eat a polar bear liver due to high concentration of vitamine A).

 

That's not chemistry. That's just your logic based on chemistry.

There is nothing in physics that says a larger venemous creature cannot exist...they just don't.

Which is fortunate for us.

This is not fire breathing dragons. Venom is far more achievable than that.

[kerbiloid]

5 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

There is nothing in physics that says a larger venemous creature cannot exist...they just don't.

There is amount of energy required for a chemical reaction, and amount of energy to gather enough food to produce it at the food density defined by the insolation and humidity.

So, it's all a pure chemistry.

The Earth contains all possible sorts of habitable landscape . And nothing bigger than snakes poisonous.

***

Of course, an extraterrestrial octohorse can cause an allergy, just like the terrestrial species do,

***

A human produces a strong necrotoxin in amount to dissolve several tens kg of protein daily.
And spends it totally in the stomach, to dissolve the mechanically destroyed victims.

All other big animals also work this way.

Edited December 14, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

 

15 minutes ago, Piscator said:

Seems a bit of a stretch to postulate an alien biosphere biochemically similar enough for their venoms to work on earth creatures, but working under this assumption, I don't really see the need to introduce our fauna at all. On the one hand - as has already been pointed out - you could try to work with what is already there and adapted to the ecosystem, on the other hand, why would you even need cattle and horses at all? If your technology is advanced enough to make an interstellar trip, it should be safe to assume you have more advanced modes of transportation or nutrition at your disposal.

If you're set on your space cowboy scenario because yee-haw, here's something you might want to try:

- Put your lifestock in protective suits

- Pick an island, sterilize it, start from scratch (shoot any returning fauna on sight)

- Ask the Australians how they do it

The reason to bring cattle is that cattle can reproduce...machines cannot.

The colony is to multiply, that is the plan.

The island idea sounds good. Even a scifi dome plasma shield may be in order here.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

The machines don't get sick, and can be 3d-printed from CD-ROM and powder, while in the extraterrestrial surrounding the cattle needs same machines to survive.

Edited December 14, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

4 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

There is amount of energy required for a chemical reaction, and amount of energy to gather enough food to produce it at the food density defined by the insolation and humidity.

So, it's all a pure chemistry.

The Earth contains all possible sorts of habitable landscape . And nothing bigger than snakes poisonous.

***

Of course, an extraterrestrial octohorse can cause an allergy, just like the terrestrial species do,

 

Snakes are not the biggest poisonous land animals.

Ever heard of Komodo dragons?

They are slow typically...and stalk their prey...usually big and slow buffalo who don't see them as a threat.

One nip and the dragons wait for hours for the beast to pass out. Then they feast.

[kerbiloid]

4 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Ever heard of Komodo dragons?

Their venom is weak and non-lethal, and they mostly kill mechanically. They just don't clean teeth.

And they weight like a small pig or a little more than a human.

So, they perfectly mark the upper limit of venomous species: ~100 kg (and the venom is poor).

5..10 kg is the biggest animal which can be actively poisonous. Bigger ones prefer to crush.

Edited December 14, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

6 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Their venom is weak and non-lethal, and they mostly kill mechanically. They just don't clean teeth.

And they weight like a small pig or a little more than a human.

So, they perfectly mark the upper limit of venomous species: ~100 kg.

Nonlethal?

Do you watch National Geographic?

The Komodos would say otherwise if they could speak.

So?

I already said the biggest land animal is the size of your average dog...that is bigger, but not by much.

I guess you are thinking birds use so much energy on flight there is no way they could produce venom.

Well...suspension of disbelief works well enough here for me. Since the changes are fairly close to reality anyway.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Nuke]

43 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

What is that?

a critter from cibola burn (or the expanse season 4 episode 7,8) that will kill you if you touch it.  its not that they evolved that way, they just weren't compatible with earth biology. their lethal toxicity was merely coincidental. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Nuke

[kerbiloid]

6 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

I already said the biggest land animal is the size of your average dog...that is bigger, but not by much.

See above about the fire.

6 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

I guess you are thinking birds use so much energy on flight there is no way they could produce venom.

Afaik, there is only one venomous bird species known, and it's sparrow-sized, and lives deep in jungle.

***

Not poisonous dogs but clouds of insects and water-living worms and molluscs should make worried the extraterrestrial farmer.

They will be poisoned by us before they do this with our cattle.

Also the cows and their manure mean clouds of terrestrial insects attacking the local biosphere.

So, either extraterrestrial farming, or greenpeacish masquerade. Not both.

Edited December 14, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Piscator]

Well, even without self-replicating machines, you can still produce them. You just have to bring the right infrastructure along.

As for why there are few large-bodied venomous species on earth, there's probably more to it than sheer luck. Maintaining venom glands is not without cost, so species will only have them if they absolutely need them. Since large species have other means of offense or defense due to their size, it's smaller species who most profit from venoms.

On the other hand, since the fairly large Komodo dragon is likely to be venomous too, it's not exactly a hard rule (although the dragons are still small compared to their prey).

[kerbiloid]

Komodos are small, their venom makes to be sleepy and slow. They don't wait the victim to die from it, they tear it aparts before it restores.

A horse hoof against the head can cause similar effect, too.

The bigger is the animal, the more it saves its venom by using it inside its body.

Edited December 14, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

11 minutes ago, Piscator said:

Well, even without self-replicating machines, you can still produce them. You just have to bring the right infrastructure along.

As for why there are few large-bodied venomous species on earth, there's probably more to it than sheer luck. Maintaining venom glands is not without cost, so species will only have them if they absolutely need them. Since large species have other means of offense or defense due to their size, it's smaller species who most profit from venoms.

On the other hand, since the fairly large Komodo dragon is likely to be venomous too, it's not exactly a hard rule (although the dragons are still small compared to their prey).

 

The reason for the dangerous planet in the story is to provide drama to the setting.

Since:

1. This is a space faring alien race that MUST colonize if they are to reproduce. It's one of the challenges that occur when a race is both biologically immortal and able and with a desire to reproduce (at least as strong as a human's). The homeworld would be over populated otherwise since they don't approve of culling each other.

2. The colony planet looked like an oasis in a desert....then they found the skeletons and abandoned spacecraft of other aliens who had tried to also colonize and began to wonder just what mess they had brought themselves into.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Piscator]

Wait, so the colonizers are not humans but another alien race? Why bring cattle and horses then? Or am I interpreting these terms to narrowly and you're talking about the respective equivalents in their home biosphere?

[Spacescifi]

5 minutes ago, Piscator said:

Wait, so the colonizers are not humans but another alien race? Why bring cattle and horses then? Or am I interpreting these terms to narrowly and you're talking about the respective equivalents in their home biosphere?

 

Essentially yes...it's easier to get the point accross to just say horse.

Behaviorwise, the main difference between us and the aliens is that the aliens are naturally inclined toward actually being responsible, whereas humans have to learn this, with them it's something they just do.

 

Besides new world colonies, the other option they have employed are space habitats....but planets are preferable for a host of reasons.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

So, the purple horned milking forest octopuses are in danger from venomous two-headed scaled ostriches.  Can we help them, and how?

Edited December 14, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

16 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

So, the purple horned milking forest octopuses are in danger from venomous two-headed scaled ostriches.  Can we help them, and how?

 

There is little advantage in having two heads...except being harder to kill.

[kerbiloid]

16 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

 

There is little advantage in having two heads...except being harder to kill.

Spoiler