What do you think about Apple TV series, "For All Mankind" about an alternative version of lunar exploration were not NASA land first on Mun ?

[Pawelk198604]

What do you think about Apple TV series, "For All Mankind" about an alternative version of lunar exploration were not NASA land first on the moon but Soviets?

I think it great show :-)

I am Polish, my mother told me that Poland. Romania and probably Hungary were the only countries of the former Eastern bloc that decided to broadcast directly from the Apollo 11 landing, America broadcast it in a band open to the whole world, and it seems that to this day it is the world record for the largest mass event in the history of TV.

My mother, who died in 2017, said that the first secretary of the Polish United Workers' Party (Polish Communist Party) decided to direct broadcast without consulting Moscow, which liquided off Brezhnev! ;-) 

 

Apparently, Brezhnev's objections that the apollo program was a tool of propaganda domination of the US, he reportedly wrote back to Brezhnev that he would not be able to deprive the Polish nation of participation in this epochal cultural event, that if he forbade broadcasting, he would commit cultural barbarism, because the presence of a man in the moon exceeds cultural and idealogical boundaries , but if Brezhnev officially asked him not to broadcast, he would of course agree, but he knew that the Kremlin would not send him such recommendations because the Soviets would deny their own narrative that the Eastern Bloc and Comecon were fully independent states: D
But a year later, Mr. Gomułka lost the post of Gensek (secretary general) of the communist party in Poland :-) 

[mikegarrison]

1 minute ago, Pawelk198604 said:

I am Polish, my mother told me that Poland. Romania and probably Hungary were the only countries of the former Eastern bloc that decided to broadcast directly from the Apollo 11 landing, America broadcast it in a band open to the whole world, and it seems that to this day it is the world record for the largest mass event in the history of TV.

My mother, who died in 2017, said that the first secretary of the Polish United Workers' Party (Polish Communist Party) decided to direct broadcast without consulting Moscow, which liquided off Brezhnev! ;-) 

Apparently, Brezhnev's objections that the apollo program was a tool of propaganda domination of the US, he reportedly wrote back to Brezhnev that he would not be able to deprive the Polish nation of participation in this epochal cultural event, that if he forbade broadcasting, he would commit cultural barbarism, because the presence of a man in the moon exceeds cultural and idealogical boundaries , but if Brezhnev officially asked him not to broadcast, he would of course agree, but he knew that the Kremlin would not send him such recommendations because the Soviets would deny their own narrative that the Eastern Bloc and Comecon were fully independent states: D
But a year later, Mr. Gomułka lost the post of Gensek (secretary general) of the communist party in Poland :-) 

I've not seen the show, but I thank you for your interesting story about Poland and Apollo 11.

[Pawelk198604]

Just now, mikegarrison said:

I've not seen the show, but I thank you for your interesting story about Poland and Apollo 11.

Once my high school physics teacher was a little 12-13 year old boy during the Armstrong landing, he and his parents wondered why the Russians were so small when it came to landing on the moon that everyone knew that the Americans and the British were self-righteous arrogant snobs(it was opinion of my teacher not mine  ), but the Americans and NASA and most countries of the world sincerely congratulated them for both sputnik missions, Gagarin's flight and Leonov's Space Walk, it would be appropriate for the Russians to congratulate NASA and the Americans on the landing on the moon, and not to downplay that  event

[Nuke]

i finally got around to watching it and its ok for what it is. exploring paths not taken.

[Spacescifi]

15 hours ago, Pawelk198604 said:

Once my high school physics teacher was a little 12-13 year old boy during the Armstrong landing, he and his parents wondered why the Russians were so small when it came to landing on the moon that everyone knew that the Americans and the British were self-righteous arrogant snobs(it was opinion of my teacher not mine  ), but the Americans and NASA and most countries of the world sincerely congratulated them for both sputnik missions, Gagarin's flight and Leonov's Space Walk, it would be appropriate for the Russians to congratulate NASA and the Americans on the landing on the moon, and not to downplay that  event

 

Appropriate?

Sure. But consider the fact that this is occurring during the cold war.

Also consider the fact that to this very day they have much the same policy of not naming those they dislike in public broadcasts.

Congratulating goes a bit far unless it grants some sort of political advantage.

In war do you play fair?

I can tell you that in chess if I manage to snag a queen and I still have mine I do not remotely play fair. I just whittle down the opposing forces and retain my tactical advantage as long as possible.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Scotius]

In politics, it marks you as a small, petty operator. Remember - no one likes sore loser Reputation is a powerful tool in the Game of Nations.

[YNM]

Honestly, your story was much more interesting, Pawelk.

 

No, I haven't watched it, nor is it likely for me to watch it, as long as it's only available on Apple TV. Only subscription service I have is Netflix (and that's not my own account). I don't have any devices capable of accessing Apple TV.

[Flying dutchman]

I quite like it to be honest.

[Kerbart]

I enjoyed it. It's also clearly fiction which gives the show plenty of room to be very liberal with how they portray the characters. Unlike The Right Stuff where you're constantly wondering “was it really like that?”

[Nuke]

22 hours ago, Kerbart said:

I enjoyed it. It's also clearly fiction which gives the show plenty of room to be very liberal with how they portray the characters. Unlike The Right Stuff where you're constantly wondering “was it really like that?”

i think i liked for all mankind more. too much drama in the right stuff, i did like the movie though. historic dramas tend to be revisionist and full of stuff that probably never happened. alt histories are much more interesting and you dont have to worry about getting it wrong.  also for all mankind focuses more on the space stuff than on drama. the right stuff maybe gave us 10 minutes of space stuff in the entire first season.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Nuke

[Pawelk198604]

On 12/27/2020 at 12:57 PM, Scotius said:

In politics, it marks you as a small, petty operator. Remember - no one likes sore loser Reputation is a powerful tool in the Game of Nations.

That why Soviet bankrupt? In Poland people remembered that NASA had enough decency to congratulate soviet their feats, while Russians not replied in kind.

[snip]

I'm guy and a gay too ;-)

[snip] but also felt that women not get enough influence in early space exploration, good we have at least Valentina Tereshkova and her KSP counterpart Val Kerman, so girls and women might have the same kind of dream, like we boys and guys have ;-)    

Edited December 30, 2020 by Gargamel
Portions Redacted by Moderator

[kerbiloid]

An office drama with spacy paintings on walls.

[Gargamel]

I know this is a thread about a show about the Space Race during the cold war, and some historical context will be necessary for some discussion, but let's leave current day politics out of it please, it never leads anywhere good.   

Some content has been removed. 

[Pawelk198604]

5 hours ago, Gargamel said:

I know this is a thread about a show about the Space Race during the cold war, and some historical context will be necessary for some discussion, but let's leave current day politics out of it please, it never leads anywhere good.   

Some content has been removed. 

Off course Mr Gargamel

 

 

 

 

It is sad to think what humanity would be capable of, if only the Americans and the Russians did not spend money on the war in Vietnam and the Afghan Wars, but on their space programs !

[kerbiloid]

They could build fortified outposts on the Moon.

[Kerbart]

14 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

They could build fortified outposts on the Moon.

I recommend Rod Pyle's Amazing Stories of the Space Age; the US Government had all kind of wonderful plans for military bases on the moon. The main reasons it didn't happen seem to be:

1. Reality
2. The diminished Red Threat of a presence on the moon
3. Budget
4. Automation & miniaturization reducing the need for feet on the ground

Part of me would have loved to see how stationing a platoon of marines in what seems to be the equivalent space of one or two 20' shipping containers would have worked out.

[kerbiloid]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Horizon

Contains nice reading in the footer.

References[edit]

1. ^ Arthur G. Trudeau (1959). Project Horizon Volume I: Summary and Supporting Considerations (PDF). United States Army. p. i.
2. ^ Logsdon, John (2010). John F. Kennedy and the Race to the Moon. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 978-0-230-11010-6.

Further reading[edit]

• Project Horizon Report: Volume I, Summary and Supporting Considerations (PDF). United States Army. June 9, 1959.
• Project Horizon Report: Volume II, Technical Considerations & Plans (PDF). United States Army. June 9, 1959.

[tater]

Watched Season 1.

Started off as an interesting premise for a sort of "Eyes turned skywards" counterfactual history.

It goes off the rails towards the end of S1, IMHO. There are the expected themes of current times jammed into every possible corner in very, very predictable ways.

All I know about Season 2 is from the trailer, and seeing footage of the actual Space Shuttle in that trailer made me decide not to bother with S2 at all. The very last minute of S1 was a cool alternate history vehicle, then to regress to the Space Shuttle after "Apollo 38" (whatever it was) had flown, and they have a permanent Moon base is sorta goofy. It will take someone as picky as me watching it telling me I really need to give S2 a chance for me to bother watching even 1 episode.

[Nuke]

im gonna give s2 a go, since there is nothing else on now that expanse s5 is over. 

[tater]

30 minutes ago, Nuke said:

im gonna give s2 a go, since there is nothing else on now that expanse s5 is over. 

Cool, you can tell me if it sucks, lol.

[kerbiloid]

It does.

P.S.
Haven't seen s2 yet.

Edited February 18, 2021 by kerbiloid

[SunlitZelkova]

I like this show as entertainment, but it is certainly not an accurate representation of what might have happened if the Soviets landed on the Moon first (that is, I don't like it because of any sort of accuracy).

Here are the major issues with their hypothetical history. Warning, there are spoilers-

Spoiler

Major issues with the history-

• The point of divergence is when Korolev dies during surgery in 1966. While the surgeon was not exactly competent, Korolev was probably going to die no matter what. He had an undiscovered tumor, and even if he hadn't died during surgery he was probably going to die soon.
• Even if Korolev lives, while the N-1 might work eventually, the Soviets aren't going to get to the Moon first. The LK hadn't even had a test flight by 1969, nor had the LOK.
• The show claims the Soviets don't care about the lives of their cosmonauts, but this is only somewhat true. By 1966 the L3 complex had actually evolved from a single launch with the N-1 to a dual launch mission, one N-1 with a backup lander and a radio beacon-rover based on the Lunokhod, and then the second N-1 with the crewed spacecraft, all in the name of safety. The Soviets were fully capable of carrying out a crewed lunar flyby if they wanted to, and yet they chose not to due to the unreliability of the spacecraft. Even in the case of the Voskhod missions they at least made an effort to follow the regulations then in place for certifying a spacecraft for crewed flight, and therefore they were unlikely to do a crewed lunar launch immediately after one flight of the N-1 (which is what happens in the show)
• Thomas Paine, the NASA administrator at the time of Apollo 11, was a Democrat, not a Republican yes-man as depicted in the show. His line "John Glenn is a Democrat so his opinion doesn't matter" when there is a meeting about recruiting female astronauts is very bizarre. In addition, he was known for going against the wishes of President Nixon (Nixon wanted to select the cheapest option for maintaining crewed spaceflight in the future, while Paine pushed for the Integrated Program Plan, a massive program involving space stations, a lunar base, flights to Mars, and the space shuttle). So his yes-man behavior is very out of character, even in the event of the Soviets landing first.
• The show has Nixon deciding to place blame on NASA, specifically Werner Von Braun, for the failure of the Moon landing. In real life, Nixon actually did plan on blaming someone if the Moon landing failed, but not Von Braun- Thomas Paine. This is why Nixon kept Paine on as administrator despite him being a Democrat. So Paine keeping his job while Von Braun gets fired is unrealistic.
• The direction of the space program in the show is a little iffy. The characters talk about a lunar base as if it was something super new and unexpected but there had been studies and plans for this with Apollo hardware for years before 1969. If the Soviets landed on the Moon ahead of the Americans in June 1969, rather than suddenly deciding on a "new" moon base because of intelligence hinting at a Soviet military base on the Moon (which is what happens in the show), they probably simply would have done "more" of the Integrated Program Plan with maybe a lunar base and a stronger commitment to space stations (whereas in real life the Space Shuttle was technically the IPP cut down to nothing but the shuttle itself). It is also very 50/50 as to whether the US would really feel like spending billions more dollars just to match the Soviets or whether they would focus on something with (supposedly) more useful results for humans on Earth; that is, space stations in Earth orbit. Public opinion was already swaying against crewed space exploration before Apollo 11 happened, and the US government had numerous other problems it had to attend to. The antagonism of the USSR had also died down in comparison with the situation in 1961. Robotic space exploration was on the verge of becoming more reliable compared to the early 1960s, and that would also help the argument of abandoning BLEO crewed space exploration after the initial Apollo program. The US very may well have taken the Soviet route- start saying crewed exploration of the Moon is a waste of money and focus on space stations. This show apparently plans to "go to Mars", however for the same reasons as the Soviets, the US would be fairly unlikely to aim for such a goal after losing the Moon race to try and beat the other guy at "something"- whereas Apollo was somewhat acceptable in terms of cost and reward, the price of a crewed Mars program, just to say "we're better than the other guy", along with the major risks of such a mission were simply not worth it.
• It is relatively unlikely the Soviets would have launched a female lunar mission. The Soviets briefly considered the idea as a way to redeem the value of their crewed lunar program but ultimately decided not to. The only reason they launched Valentina Tereshkova was because they believed the Americans were about to do it with the Mercury 13. If they landed on the Moon first, without any evidence of American women participating in the Apollo program, it is unlikely they would send a woman to the Moon. Historically despite still having some female cosmonauts in the late 1960s, none of them participated in the lunar training program.
• The Soviets never had any plans for a military lunar base. Their lunar base (the DLB) was entirely civilian in nature. The Moon did, and still has, zero military usefulness.

In regards to season 2 (what I have seen in the trailers)-

• The space shuttle would not have looked like that if NASA continued to receive high levels of funding past 1969. The only reason is looks like it does in real life is because NASA had to get the Air Force to lobby for it, which involved giving it cross range capability so it could launch military satellites.
• Even in the event of a Soviet moon landing and the initiation of a lunar base project, there were never any plans to send the space shuttle to the Moon. The space shuttle would fly crew to a reusable lunar taxi, which would be propelled to the Moon by a reusable NERVA stage. The taxi would then bring them to the lunar base. Sending the shuttle to the Moon was never considered for all of the physical reasons people have discussed (Scott Manley did a video on it).
• Deploying some sort of strategic weapon on the Moon is a dumb idea for both the Soviets and the Americans. If you are putting a strategic weapon in space, why on the Moon, when it can be spied on by the American lunar base? Why not a very high Earth orbit? In addition it would take days for your weapon to reach its target on Earth, by which time it would be detected and a retaliatory strike launched by your enemy. I personally don't mind it because it as an entertainment TV show, but from the point of trying to make a plausible what if history of if the Soviets built a lunar base, deploying a strategic land attack weapon on it is unrealistic.

 

This show makes me want to see a parody of the movie First Man, except it is about Alexei Leonov and a successful Soviet moon landing. Sadly, the L3 complex is never shown during this show except for the part of the LK visible during the broadcast of Leonov taking his first steps on the Moon.

[tater]

Wow, the Paine thing blew right past me watching it. If they're painting him as a bad guy, their political switch makes complete sense given who make TV shows.

[SOXBLOX]

10 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Thomas Paine, the NASA administrator at the time of Apollo 11, was a Democrat, not a Republican yes-man as depicted in the show. His line "John Glenn is a Democrat so his opinion doesn't matter" when there is a meeting about recruiting female astronauts is very bizarre. 

Reality doesn't fit the narrative? Just get the Ministry of Truth to adjust it. 

I've only watched a couple of reviews. From those, I gathered the only worthy aspect of the entire show was the modern Sea Dragon render at the end of Season whatever.

[kerbiloid]

Took a watch of s02e01 of the For All Womankind.

Spoiler

Mostly same office/bar drama beginning with the office-transformer.
(TODO: A closed life support loop would significantly improve its usability.)

Space Shuttle was wanting to dock Skylab (until it dove), yes.
But inside Skylab had nothing common with ISS which they are trying to cosplay.
Actually, it was a castle tower, being compared to this empty boxcar with a sight in the wall for unknown reasons used to measure radiation level.

Idk, what means this "thirty", but probably a lot of, as she can see the radiation visually.
Even looking at the Sun directly through the sight.
(Here should be a joke about her backup second eye, but no, it's a binocular. At least, full-faced.)
Well, mom knows best.

Superfast solar flash, proton speed is 0.3 c, it has burnt Mariner inside the Mercury orbit.
(I.e. it's ~15 min till the hit. But they say 30 min. The protons move spirally?
Anyway, they have a lot of time to talk.

It's obviously good to ride by rovers to the caves from the lunar base because it has 3 m regolith above...
But better have  a vault below.

What is the first todo if a proton stormcan burnt several US early-warning sats?
Obviously, launch ballistic rockets because Russians can launch theirs.
Happily, the general asks the NASA flight director and decides not to do that.
Why not, mom knows best.

Dust bizzard on the Moon is normal. Because protons.

1 000 millirem would kill a man in an hour...
1 rem. 0.01 Sv.
Well, maybe misheard... I hope this.

It's a good tradition to break and overturn lunar rovers.
Happily this time they don't have guns. In Ad Astra they did only worse.

A lifehack: if carry a wounded colleague on shoulders, he is an additional 30 cm of radprotection.
For protons it's a lot.
But unlikely she can carry this man and two lunar suits on them.

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by kerbiloid