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The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.11.x - 1.12.x


JAFO

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Another update. With "Electrics" tech square, I now have solar panels and an OCTO controller. This one will stay on the Mun for science contracts:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20131.png

I've turned the corner, the contracts are paying higher, earning science AND as a bonus, paying for my new relay network:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20132.png

Spot the difference:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20133.png

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20134.png

With that aerial sticking out on top, this was a dog to drive "uphill":

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20135.png

Forgot the goo! But, by a stroke of luck, another "satellite with goo" contract came up for the Mun so I was able to send a 3rd satellite, completing my "Mun relay" constellation - with one of the satellites 'static' (no engine/fuel, just the controller/aerial/battery/solar)

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20136.png

Next steps? I'm saving up for a docking port, then I have a plan so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a fox!

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The Mun relay network is working nicely:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20139.png

The Mun is my oyster - I can land wherever the sun shines, I am not limited to near side any more. Diamond challenge will obviously need science from a lot of the biomes of the Mun, so the network was the first thing to have in place (and didn't need docking ports).

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20138.png

I needed 2 1/2 trips to the Mun to earn enough science to buy docking ports. I say 2 1/2, I was able to visit a biome, then transmit materials/goo/temp/pressure, then take off again and hop to another biome to transmit temp/pressure (but not materials/goo without a reset). So, 2 rockets were needed instead of 3, to earn the necessary for the next upgrade/tech tree square. I will be revisiting all the biomes again to return the science once I have docking ports, since I can't get the science home without (not enough fuel!)

Edited by paul_c
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After a few unsuccessful iterations, I now have my new/improved "docking" mission profile sorted out. In addition to providing enough fuel to land on the Mun then take off to orbit again, it can fulfil 2-4 contracts which typically pay ~10k each (and earn science points), so the scheme is self-sustaining and even makes a profit!

2 rockets are sent to the Mun. The first is a very basic satellite, which can split in half leaving the fuel tank only. This is used to fulfil "satellite orbiting Mun" contracts. 

The second is a similar vehicle but with a "science module" on top (yes it is a dog to drive!!!)

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20141.png

(This is also used to fulfil Mun sat contracts, where they specify eg thermometer, or goo, etc)

Here is a clearer view of both vehicles which make it to Mun orbit. The "main" is on the left; the "split in half" satellite is on the right at an angle (the magnets sorted that out for docking though).

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20142.png

Suitable crossfeed strategy is set up so the now combined vehicle drains fuel first from the add-on tank (on the top here). Note how its almost fully drained by the time the craft lands on the Mun:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20143.png

Makes sense to use the splash of fuel remaining, with Mun's 1/6 gravity there's time to lift off, then eject the now empty tank, wait a few seconds, do an angle of ascent change and safely fly away from it:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20144.png

Similar is also done with the science module, which is now dead weight. The remaining smaller vehicle has just enough performance to make it to orbit. And this is the "half" satellite which is left in orbit, having given up its fuel tank previously. Note how the engine is included in the split off half, leaving just the fuel tank for best performance in the other half which is further used.

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20145.png

 

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Another mini-update. This time I did a little variation and with only one contract to fulfil, did the docking to the extra fuel tank in Kerbin orbit. Then onto the Mun. It was a polar orbit satellite contract (the Kerbin docking was for extra performance which I'll need for inclination changes etc), so why not visit the Poles?

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20146.png

Because its very mountainous!!!!! This is probably the most challenging landing, not only is it rocky but the terrain and the low angle of the sun is going to put you into semi-darkness. This is the view looking back, you can see the square markers 7.2km (dropped fuel tank and science instruments) where I landed. Normally on a take-off you fly East, for the poles you can scratch your head a bit then try it anyway!

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20147.png

Next steps? Not sure, I need to tweak the design of the rocket, get my "map of the Mun" out to find new biomes and avoid revisiting somewhere I've already been. I am putting off Minmus for as long as possible!!! And debating whether Duna far/near/high atmosphere; Ike far/near would earn me challenge completion. No idea how I'd intercept it though!!

 

 

Edited by paul_c
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On 1/29/2021 at 1:23 PM, JAFO said:

Not quite.. if you try to build directly on the launch pad, once you go over 18 tons, the pad will actually explode. You need to build off the pad.. hence the term 'lawn'. Turns out grass is tougher than concrete. Who'd have thunkit? :huh:

It works! :0.0:
It can't believe it, but its 25tons on a single engine bell without any launch clamps. Im sure there must be some kind of limit at which the pad blows up, but it seems higher than 18t at least. I already have a design that hooked a hammer+FL-T100 tank onto the rocket. Now that i have struts, i might look at adding Thumpers (or just LF & OX boosters)  :D

uc?id=1aAGBVyGlLnrDjbtE2CK2u5xXCF-QGeON&

uc?id=1vCLslgVvYZGdU68kcEaDotERegmgX-vk&

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That's really handy to know, I was racking my brain trying to think how you'd do "lawn construction" given the lawn is to the side of the launchpad and rockets don't move sideways very well!

I wonder what the real limit of the caveman pad is? In theory you could fit about 4-6 docking ports around the base and each added bit could be a little under 18t???

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9 hours ago, paul_c said:

I wonder what the real limit of the caveman pad is? In theory you could fit about 4-6 docking ports around the base and each added bit could be a little under 18t???

I have no idea, maybe the pad breaks are more due to kraken effects (which also scale with craft mass?) than launch mass?
Anyway with auto-struts we can try even bigger addons. Imagine adding a 2.5m booster below the rocket, and some side booster on that. I you are really patient, you can always "launch" the extra construction vehicles from the Runway too

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With various bits of data floating around in Mun orbit, it is time to go and collect some of it. Unlike last time ("Hard" challenge), with the science rate 1/3 in Diamond, it will make sense to go get some and maybe unlock some new goodies. So I'll collect 4 biomes worth. This is the business end of the vehicle. Note how its engineered to meet the 18t limit:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20149.png

On its way:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20150.png

Some data pods had more fuel left than others. So a scheme of one visiting the other, transferring data, then remaining connected to use its fuel up then travelling to rendezvous with the next, etc was done. This one was interesting, this was a previous design which put the science instruments back into orbit, I just wanted the fuel so a bit of shuffling around in space occurred:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20151.png

Eventually after what felt like a hundred dockings, the top of the probe was safely able to make it back:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20152.png

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20153.png

All for a useful amount of science, but still a long way to go to achieve the challenge:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20154.png

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After doing some detailed planning, the engineers have cobbled together this (top stage):

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20156.png

I am trying to persuade Val to get in it so we can launch, however she has become very nervous and keeps muttering something about the placement of the heatshield and stack separator???

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Back to the Mun....

Another iteration on the design sees the science module combined with the rest of the top stage and the "Spark" engine used, the idea being to eliminate the 1st docking for more fuel:

 

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20162.png

East Crater:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20157.png

Trying and failing miserably to line up inclination with "The Canyons":

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20158.png

A few tweaks along the way and I'm on target not to go splat into the walls:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20159.png

The first landing attempt slid down the wall, so a quick abort/take off and another attempt. It eat into my reorbit fuel but I had enough:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20160.png

Flying out of the canyons is always fun:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20161.png

NW Crater:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20163.png

With my reputation now above -850 I can trash it a bit more, for 'free' money:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20164.png

 

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For taking screenshots, most players are probably already aware of these, but for everyone else:

  • Pressing F1 in game takes a fullscreen screenshot
    • It is saved as a .PNG file into the .\Kerbal Space Program\Screenshots folder
    • Each file is numbered in the order they were saved
  • PNG files are much larger than even 80% quality JPEG files, which load up much faster on the forums (if your internet speed is a bit low)
    • I use an app called "FastStone Photo Resizer" which does these conversions in bulk, it takes like 30 seconds to do 100 screenshots
    • If limited data on your internet plan is a problem, this really helps out a lot
  • F2 hides the HUD

This helped me out so much, its quite close to the main keyboard controls so its not very disruptive

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Mission report: Caveman Apatite (Normal Career) completed:

Notes:

The Normal career 1x science multiplier really made this challenge a grind.  Similar to my Talc Challenge missions, I stayed away from science farming on Kerbin (other than Launch pad, Crawlerway, and Runway). All missions returned to Kerbin for full points, no data transmission was used. I did accept a few contracts for accomplishments I was going to do anyway (reach orbit, etc). I did not take any parts testing or tourist contracts. Once I earned enough funds, I set up a 25% R&D  strategy. Again, I have no idea if it yielded enough science points to be worthwhile.

Sub-orbital missions on Kerbin covered the easy-to-reach biomes around KSC (Shores, Waters, Grassland, Highlands, Mountains, and Desert. Two near-orbital flights were made to the ice caps. Those missions carried whatever science parts I had unlocked at the time. Some were re-flown with the Science Jr once it was available.

Orbital missions  were to low and high Kerbin space, low and high Mun space, and low Minmus space. There were no Mun or Minmus landings. I had about 20 science points left after completing the first four levels, so I did not need a second Minmus trip.

On two missions, I docked with a transfer stage in LKO in order to use its excess fuel and engine to get to the Mun - but I later realized that I didn't really need the transfer stage. One of the empty transfer stages ended up in a solar orbit after an unfortunate 2nd encounter with the Mun caused it to be ejected.

Navigating to and around Minmus without any aids was not really a ton of fun. I had to learn a bunch of lessons about avoiding interference from the Mun, and how to make adjustments near Ap near Minmus to wait around for it to catch up. I launched and recovered that mission several times before getting a successful completion.

I discovered that if you put a heat shield under the Science Jr, and stack a one-kerbal command pod on top, you can re-enter and land with two chutes pretty safely. On the sub-orbital flights. I added a drogue chute because I tended to be going too fast and too low.

Update: I forgot to mention that the fuel cross-feed trick through a docking port was negated by the heat shield on the Science Jr. You can't crossfeed through a heat shield - you learn something every day. So I just used the transfer stage as a booster. I had originally planned to just use it as a fuel tank and discard its engine, but that just left me with a big tank of fuel and no way to use it.

Here is a link to a  few images:

https://imgur.com/a/ugu4kZt

 

 

Edited by FloppyRocket
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@JAFO I was curious about the challenge's stance towards Green Monoliths. (For those unfamiliar, there is 1 on each planet/moon, when you discover them it unlocks a random* tech node for free)

According to the rules, we still have to "Acquire 1188 Science Points to unlock twenty nodes of the technology tree."

  • If a discovered green monolith unlocks a tech node in the Tier1-5 range, we can no longer unlock it. Is it ok if we at least push through to 1188 total science points then?
  • If a discovered green monolith unlocks a Tier6+ tech node, are we allowed to use those unlocked parts?
  • Or are green monoliths completely off the table for this challenge?

I got the feeling this challenge is about pushing for the most ambitious missions given really basic tech, but also unlocking "future" tech would be a great for building entire crafts around this one special part that was unlocked with a Monolith (cavemen would be mumbling about magic and stuff).

* The unlocked tech node might not be completely random, I'm not sure
I haven't found one in the challenge yet, but I'm having interest in tracking some of them down for this.

Edited by Blaarkies
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1 hour ago, Blaarkies said:

@JAFO I was curious about the challenge's stance towards Green Monoliths. (For those unfamiliar, there is 1 on each planet/moon, when you discover them it unlocks a random* tech node for free)

According to the rules, we still have to "Acquire 1188 Science Points to unlock twenty nodes of the technology tree."

  • If a discovered green monolith unlocks a tech node in the Tier1-5 range, we can no longer unlock it. Is it ok if we at least push through to 1188 total science points then?
  • If a discovered green monolith unlocks a Tier6+ tech node, are we allowed to use those unlocked parts?
  • Or are green monoliths completely off the table for this challenge?

I got the feeling this challenge is about pushing for the most ambitious missions given really basic tech, but also unlocking "future" tech would be a great for building entire crafts around this one special part that was unlocked with a Monolith (cavemen would be mumbling about magic and stuff).

* The unlocked tech node might not be completely random, I'm not sure
I haven't found one in the challenge yet, but I'm having interest in tracking some of them down for this.

To date, the "official" position on Green Monoliths has been; "Go for it! If you manage to get a useful unlock, that's great!"

To the best of my knowledge (as always, if I'm wrong, someone please correct me) so far, GMs have always unlocked Tier 6 or higher nodes. This may be due to the fact that generally speaking, those cavemen who've found GMs have already unlocked most of the Tier 1-5 nodes,  as finding GMs is not easy without some of the higher-tech equipment. Indeed, IIRC, the cavemen who've managed to find GMs had already fully unlocked Tiers 1-5, and were then pushing on to see if they could locate GMs in hopes of unlocking something in Tier 6 or above.

If a GM unlocks a Tier 6+ node, yes, you are definitely allowed to use those parts. As others have sometimes found though, you may simply end up unlocking something that isn't really helpful.

I can't say if the unlocks are completely random or not. To date, we have far too small a data set to determine this.

2 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

According to the rules, we still have to "Acquire 1188 Science Points to unlock twenty nodes of the technology tree."

  • If a discovered green monolith unlocks a tech node in the Tier1-5 range, we can no longer unlock it. Is it ok if we at least push through to 1188 total science points then?

I'd be perfectly happy to let a GM-unlocked T 1-5 node contribute to the overall points total (after all, the evidence to date shows that finding one takes a considerable amount of effort to do, and it is quite an achievement in its own right!) Anyone with another perspective or suggestion on how to handle this situation is more than welcome to chip in. Let the discussion begin!

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On 2/6/2021 at 9:34 AM, Blaarkies said:

It works! :0.0:
It can't believe it, but its 25tons on a single engine bell without any launch clamps. Im sure there must be some kind of limit at which the pad blows up, but it seems higher than 18t at least.

:o

Wow.. ok, maybe something has changed within the game. Certainly in the past, people found that the pad didn't like going over 18 tons. (As usual, turns out I was wrong!)

In any case, congratulations! On both making the discovery, and on your first successful lawn pad construction!

I shall look forward to your exploration of just how far things can be pushed. ;)

 

20 hours ago, Muetdhiver said:

I do not think there is a pad weight limit. During tests I went to ~50t on the pad.

The biggest lawn assembly I know off was during the jool5 caveman insanity to lift the core stage forthe jool vessel.

Ok.. I stand corrected. Thanks for the info! :cool:

Edited by JAFO
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Ok I'll try JPG! PNG is a lossless compression format, I think they're not compressing that much due to the HD screenshot size and the background stars etc....JPG saves a little bit though.

I've found Minmus! After a test flight which revealed the shortcomings of the smaller aerial, I've put 2x HG aerials on for reliable comms. I think one would still do it though?

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20166.jpg

Another rocket, off to fulfil 2x Kerbin satellite contracts of around ~5Mm, then onwards to Minmus. I am a caveman with bad eyesight and have failed to encounter Minmus in the "conventional" sense but by raising Pe once I'm at the Ap of 46.4Mm or thereabouts, I can do a 'traditional' rendezvous thing albeit which takes ages and uses more fuel - but its assured to get there.

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20167.jpg

So with a number more contracts, which pay about £10k each, and Minmus encounter/captures, I now have a relay constellation:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20168.jpg

A tweak here and there....:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20169.jpg

And with the Ap/Pe chosen as 400km, near-match the inclinations (matching inclination isn't massively important but matching Ap/Pe, thus the orbital period, IS):

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20170.jpg

Next steps? I still have a bit of Mun science which can be completed with 1 rocket per biome; then an additional retrieval and re-entry vehicle. But I have a more ambitious idea for Minmus..... I did consider interplanetary but its just too dicey when Minmus is "safe", although for fun I might try it with the caveman restraints and same hardware, once the challenge is in the bag.

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21 minutes ago, paul_c said:

I've found Minmus! After a test flight which revealed the shortcomings of the smaller aerial, I've put 2x HG aerials on for reliable comms. I think one would still do it though?

Another rocket, off to fulfil 2x Kerbin satellite contracts of around ~5Mm, then onwards to Minmus. I am a caveman with bad eyesight and have failed to encounter Minmus in the "conventional" sense but by raising Pe once I'm at the Ap of 46.4Mm or thereabouts, I can do a 'traditional' rendezvous thing albeit which takes ages and uses more fuel - but its assured to get there.

Great work on that Minmus encounter!
I nearly missed mine, twice:D, its definitely not an easy mission without fancy buildings
 

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

To date, the "official" position on Green Monoliths has been; "Go for it! If you manage to get a useful unlock, that's great!"

This is great news! Im really looking forward to hunting those down, but im probably underestimating how hard it is to find them with OCTO probes (its so easy with the rover-body-cores that have a 100% detection rate)
I took a quick peak in Kerbnet, and saw the desert pyramids...it might be an easy take on extra cash to get things like these, and then i remembered about the GMs 

Edited by Blaarkies
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I admire your bravery sending live Kerbals there! I chickened out when I realised I could send probes there with not too much extra infrastructure for the relay network. I already lost Jeb in a weird training incident, if Val cops it and I need her its game over! I've already had 2 rockets go splat into the Mun, due to bad piloting skills.

Edited by paul_c
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32 minutes ago, paul_c said:

I admire your bravery sending live Kerbals there! I chickened out when I realised I could send probes there with not too much extra infrastructure for the relay network. I already lost Jeb in a weird training incident, if Val cops it and I need her its game over! I've already had 2 rockets go splat into the Mun, due to bad piloting skills.

Hehe thanks, but don't get me wrong, in the Topaz level i had a few close calls. You know they are close when spacebar is getting smashed rapidly to get to those parachutes :sealed:
Ironically, I was afraid of sending probes and having them lose connection during a collision course, but you proved that most of the science can be collected by just those.

I still stress during launches on the way up, but once in orbit its all the same whether or not its around Kerbin, Mun, or Minmus (as long as you have enough fuel to comfortably get back). The new dangerous mission im planning is either an Eve Flyby(130k rewards:o), or to make Bob Kerman in EVA hold on to a Minmus lander.

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I figured that science return is 8+12+10+25 for temp/pressure/goo/science jr. With no EVA ability, crew report is +5 which isn't that much. Also it means if you muddle up the fuel, all is not lost because you can leave the probe on the Mun, scoop up the "science from surface of Mun" contracts and these pay about £2500 +1 science point (a typical rocket of mine is about £13000 all in).

A replacement astronaut is about £500,000 which is earnable but would take about a month!

Edited by paul_c
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Another update.

For Minmus, instead of sending 8 separate rockets, we will build a space station! It is modular, the base rocket underneath is familiar and very similar. From left to right: fuel module; science module; main part; remote/probe module. The main part will receive 4x science, 4x fuel and the remote/probe, constructed in LKO. Then it will travel to Minmus, possibly expending the outer fuel tanks along the way. Once safely in orbit there, the remote/probe will undock and re-dock with a science module (and possibly fuel too). Then it will descend to the surface of Minmus, gather 2x biomes of science and return to the station, where it offloads its science results and ejects the spent science/fuel modules. Rinse and repeat for 6 surface biomes (+ near and far Minmus space) and then the remote/probe will gather as many useful fuel modules as possible then this time, detach the "get you home" pack with heatshield and chutes. Then it will re-enter and split off its fuel tank too, leaving (hopefully if I've planned it right!) the science, controller, etc to safely return to Kerbin.

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20171.jpg

The beginning of a new era.....the main module is on its way to space:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20172.jpg

Safely in LKO:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20173.jpg

Yikes! Pointy end up, flamy end down! Except the nose isn't very pointy on my caveman rockets; and the engines have been shutdown because they're not helping! The problem was the 0.625m components in the middle, induced a severe case of "wobbly rocket" so it went out of control and several engine off-ons didn't help either. Fortunately I had enough science points to buy some struts and the problem is solved.

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20174.jpg

2nd try with the Science Module was much more successful, reaching 3.0m from the Main Module. Spot the obvious mistake?? The engine looks awfully similar to the docking port, and I forgot to turn it round! I remembered, too late, and it did a nice thwack and sent the main module spinning away at 1.5+ m/s.

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20175.jpg

Another try and the situation was once again under control, fortunately no damage done. With minutes of daylight to spare, we have a 2/10 complete space station:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20176.jpg

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Station 3/10 complete:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20177.jpg

Let's "mop up" the remaining Mun science. Not a bad encounter!

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20178.jpg

For "SW Crater" a big inclination change is needed. It makes sense to do it while at a big eccentric orbit, high up. After meticulous calculations to take into account the tidal-locking, position of the Sun, Mun and Kerbin to give an accurate approach:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20179.jpg

I waited until daylight/full Mun and my calculations seem to be 180deg out:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20180.jpg

No worries I'll just do a night approach, on instruments:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20181.jpg

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20182.jpg

Except I'd missed....quite badly. That's "Lowlands" biome! Fortunately I've not been there before so I gathered the science etc.

That's better! I did the inclination change in the same orbit as the landing will be, to assuredly hit the right spot (its a big spot too):

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20183.jpg

Phew! Right biome!

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20184.jpg

And another module to the station, now 4/10 complete:

KSP%20CCD%20Image%20185.jpg

 

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19 hours ago, FloppyRocket said:

Mission report: Caveman Apatite (Normal Career) completed:

Congratulations, @FloppyRocket, on completing your second Caveman Challenge!

A new badge has been freshly minted for you, with both Talc and Apatite stones on it. Check your inbox.

A new entry has been carved on the cave wall.

Ooga!

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