Can't Land Rover

[Popestar]

I followed Echo's (I think) video on how to create a rover and land it on the Mun, and I cannot get this thing to land.  Even with MechJeb.  For some reason I have zero control over it once it detaches from the relay probe, and even MechJeb fails to ignite engines, calculate landing trajectory...nothing.  I can't even crash this thing into the Mun.  What am I doing wrong here?

It's a RoveMate with wheels and a bunch of science gadgets on it in a Service Bay, just like the video.  And I cannot get it to land.  I've wasted countless hours and a bunch of  just launching and getting to orbit multiple times only to have this thing not be able to land on the Mun.  What the frak?

[Cavscout74]

Start with all the "dumb" reasons - Do you have either a pilot or probe core?  Does the probe core have power?  Does the probe core have a good communications link?  Does the rover have either RCS or reaction wheels?

At one point or another I've missed pretty much every one of those

[Popestar]

The core of the Rover is a RoveMat probe core.

The core has an electric charge on it, as well as a couple of batteries and solar panels.  I've checked, and there is no loss of power.

The probe core has a couple of the basic extendable antenna on it directly, as well as 2 of them on the outside of the service bay.  Not to mention it's close to the relay probe that it separates from in orbit of the Mun.

The reaction wheels might be the issue...but I notice that when I'm trying to pitch it using WASD, the wheels on the rover are actually moving instead of the entire thing flipping over.  Does this mean that I need yet a third probe core on this ridiculous thing?

[bewing]

No, it means that a RoveMate doesn't have reaction wheels. So you need to stick a little reaction wheel on your rover. You do realize that the "basic extendable antenna" cannot act as a relay? So you may not have communications, either.

[vv3k70r]

23 minutes ago, Popestar said:

The reaction wheels might be the issue...but I notice that when I'm trying to pitch it using WASD, the wheels on the rover are actually moving instead of the entire thing flipping over.  Does this mean that I need yet a third probe core on this ridiculous thing?

For lowG rover You absolutly need reaction wheels. When You speed up and jump You need to turn reaction wheels from SAS to full control and position rover to land on wheels.

Use alt+F12, position Your rover on da Mun and see what happen without reaction wheels when driving.

Asign a key to cycle wheel mode SAS-PILOT-NORMAL.

[VoidSquid]

If you don't mind, @Popestar, maybe you want to try a rover similar to this?

Three mod parts which can easily be removed / replaced by stock parts: JS-1 Joint from KAS to allow refueling, inline fuel cell array from MRS instead of the stock one (same specs), Bon Voyage controller.

A few characteristics:

Six rugged wheels which provide good driving characteristics on various CBs, from Minmus to Eve

Two probe cores, OKTO2 below solar panels for vertical movement, RC-001S for driving and storing science.

Four Twitch engines for autonomous landing / biome hopping

Fuel cell array, allowing sunlight independent operations

Two seats for adventurous little green people

Various experiments, including a large scanner arm

Front docking port, can be used to put the rover on a rocket as payload, or couple with other vessels

 

This little tech marvel costs you just a tiny 73443 credits, total bargain, if you ask me  

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by VoidSquid

[Popestar]

I think the reaction wheels is an issue, and that is easily correctable.  I have a reaction wheel on the overall rocket, and that stays with the relay probe orbiting the Mun.  I can easily enough change it to stay with the service bay upon staging, which should solve that issue.

The antenna I will have to check.  I wasn't aware that the retractable basic ones weren't powerful enough; the video I used as a guide has them.  It is easy enough to put different antenna both on the service bay (for flight to landing) and on the rover (once on the surface).  I'm just surprised that they work in the video but not in application.

It is also easy enough to create a different rover altogether.  My big struggle, apart from what I'm experiencing now, is deployment.  How to get it to the Mun.  The one @VoidSquid gave above is great...but how to launch it?  And how to deploy it once there?  That's why the video is invaluable; it showed me how to get this one onto a rocket.  And that is my major struggle.

[VoidSquid]

3 hours ago, Popestar said:

but how to launch it?  And how to deploy it once there?

This is the rover with the launch vehicle

 

You can either land the rocket and disconnect the rover there, or separate the rover from the launch vehicle in low orbit and use its Twitch engines to land.

[Popestar]

@VoidSquid

And that STILL doesn't give me what I've asked for on rovers multiple times in multiple threads:  a basic, step-by-step, HOW THE FRAK DO I BUILD, LAUNCH, AND LAND A FREAKING ROVER.  I can't put it any more plainly than that.  Pictures do me ZERO good as I need someone to tell me "This part here, turn it this way, etc.".  What do I have to do to get that?

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Popestar said:

@VoidSquid

 HOW THE FRAK DO I BUILD, LAUNCH, AND LAND A FREAKING ROVER.  I can't put it any more plainly than that.  Pictures do me ZERO good as I need someone to tell me "This part here, turn it this way, etc.".  What do I have to do to get that?

Huh. Not really sure i get what you actually ask, but let's try...

So, you start with a rover. you said you already have one, so I assume you don't need extra explanations. i must point out that the spaceplane hangar is best suited to build rovers, because of the symmetry it uses.

but then you must couple the rover onto a rocket, and the sph is not good for building rockets.

So you change the editor to the vab, you rotate the rover in vertical position, and you start building the rocket underneath. to be able to attach the rocket to the rover, of course, you need to have left some pieces of the rover with open nodes.

and the result is something like what voidsquid is showing in his picture: notice how he attached the hecs2 (which controls the rocket) to the rover docking port. then he built the rocket down from there.

 

Landing a rover is the trickyest part; the easier solution, for low gravity world, is actually to have the rover being a capable spaceship on its own. use some fuel tanks in the body and attach some rockets (be careful of balancing with the center of mass; better to use engines with gimbaling), and your rover can land itself.

if you don't want to do that, there is the sky crane arrangement. which is basically still like putting rockets on the rover, except they get jettisoned later. For example, you could place a ring decoupler on top of your rovemate. then attach a large fuel tank over that decoupler, and then attach some radial engines to the tank (thuds or twichs are good  for that). so, use those engines to land the rover, then activate the decoupler and fly the tank away (it wouldn't do to have the rover crushed under it; of course, you need to have some control left once you decouple to be able to do that).

 

Regarding the antenna, it's not a matter of antenna power. Some antennas can act as relays, meaning that they can also make communications for other spaceships nearby. some antennas cannot. as a rule of thumb, there are two antennas for every power; the heavier is the one that can act as relay.

 

Finally, you may not find benefit in pictures, but WE certainly would. It would be MUCH easier to figure out what's your problem if you would post pictures of your rover and mission and what happens when you lose control.

I hope i could be of help

[se5a]

pretty sure there are a ton of youtube vids showing this stuff, and google to help you find them.

[Popestar]

Ok, let me put my issues into a list so that it is easy for me to get my thoughts out, and easy for you guys to understand.

1.  I followed a video by Echo about how to build and land a rover on the Mun.  The video goes way too fast because whoever makes tutorials likes time warp during build.  So while I think I got what he built, I doubt it.  Which means that I do not in fact know if I have a serviceable rover or not. Which is why I keep asking for someone to just give me a step by step of building a rover.

2.  I get that rivers are built in the SPH and connected to a rocket in the VAB.  I'm having difficulty with that because rovers are horizontal and rockets are vertical and KSP does not have cargo bays that you just roll stuff in to.  Which once again means I need explicit instructions on how to do this.  @king of nowhere stated what to do, but I keep asking HOW.  Telling me to build a rocket under it does me no good.  How do i connect to it?  Do I need an additional probe core?  What fuel tanks or engines are best?  Any tips on HOW to do this?  See the theme there?  I keep asking how, and not getting an answer.

3.  How do I land a rover?  If it is in the rocket vertically, and I need it horizontal...how do I do that?  HOW?  I hate to keep hitting on that point, but I've asked for the how multiple times and I am not getting an answer.  Tellong ne what to do doesn't help me understand how it is done.

I feel like an idiot at this point.  I feel like I'm not articulating properly, and this is frustrating.  Can anyone give me a step by step on this?  Throw out anything I may have said about already having a rover; just assume I have nothing.

[Spricigo]

29 minutes ago, Popestar said:

I feel like an idiot at this point.  I feel like I'm not articulating properly, and this is frustrating.  Can anyone give me a step by step on this?  Throw out anything I may have said about already having a rover; just assume I have nothing.

*Sighs*

Is frustrating for people trying to help, too. They offered ideas, guides, explanations, clarifications, examples, counterexamples and yet you don't show any sign of attempting to follow the instructions given. Not an image of a craft you put together for then to examine, not an indication of a specific step you have trouble with. Just  a vague "How I do the whole thing?" 

You are making so hard to help you that is no surprise if people are giving up. They are all volunteer and you seems to expect  more effort to teach you to build a rover than what they put in their own craft. 

But I'm not saying that to berate you. I  don't blame you for what I believe is just a communication issue. However you need to make an effort to provide better feedback than you provided so far.  I currently don't have the  answer you are looking for, but I'm confident that we can find out together. So I will ask a few questions,  to get some hints of what you already have figured out, what you still have trouble with and how we can point you in the right direction:

1. What you expect to be done easier with rover than with a different vessel?

2.Which mission objetives you planned for that specific rover? 

3.Which parts are available? ( We may work with something like 'up to ## science points nodes unlocked' )

4.There is any part you decided your rover must have?

5Are using any mod that change gameplay?

6.Are you familiar with the move, rotate and re-root tools, with symmetry modes, angle snap,  and the CoM indicator? 

7.Do you have Advanced Tweakables enabled and are you familiar with the option it brings?

8.Have you tried to build the rover?  What was the last step you managed to do? Provide a screenshot of your craft.(what you got so far)

 

 

 

[Kerbart]

2 hours ago, Popestar said:

(...)

2.  I get that rovers are built in the SPH and connected to a rocket in the VAB.  I'm having difficulty with that because rovers are horizontal and rockets are vertical and KSP does not have cargo bays that you just roll stuff in to.  Which once again means I need explicit instructions on how to do this.  @king of nowhere stated what to do, but I keep asking HOW.  Telling me to build a rocket under it does me no good.  How do i connect to it?  Do I need an additional probe core?  What fuel tanks or engines are best?  Any tips on HOW to do this?  See the theme there?  I keep asking how, and not getting an answer.

Well, I build my rovers horizontally in the VAB. Then I test them on the launch pad. Can I drive it around? Can I deploy the solar panels and antenna's? Basically will there not be any surprises after I finally manage to land it?

Then revert to lab, and if it needs to be oriented vertically (not all rovers require this), I grab it by it's root part (most likely the rovemate) and use the WASD keys to flip it around so it's vertically oriented (the WASD keys, together with the Q and E keys, allow you to re-orient parts in the VAB. Use them in combination with Shift to turn in 5° increments)

2 hours ago, Popestar said:

3.  How do I land a rover?  If it is in the rocket vertically, and I need it horizontal...how do I do that?  HOW?  I hate to keep hitting on that point, but I've asked for the how multiple times and I am not getting an answer.  Tellong ne what to do doesn't help me understand how it is done.

When you right-click on the rovemate you can change the orientation from "Up" to "Forward" - this way the controls are not messed up when you fly it as a rocket in vertical orientation but you're landing it in horizontal orientation.

[VoidSquid]

All right, I hope that this fits your needs, if not, let me know. If yes, let me know know too, then we can go into more detail.  

The idea for my little rover dates back to my first career play through, I watched a couple of rover tutorial videos, but none of the rovers I saw was appealing to me. I wanted these characteristics:
1. Works on various terrains and CBs
2. Autonomous operation, independent of solar panels
3. Can be delivered either via carrier rocket, or can land autonomously
4. Many science experiments available
5. Seats for two Kerbals, remote operation possible

So I went to the SPH and started building, first part is the RC-001S probe core
1. 6 rugged wheels was a given
2. Fuel cells, obviously. An 800 tank to power those. Which also makes a perfect base to attach all other parts.
3. Added 4 Twitch engines. And I had to add a second probe core with a different orientation to be able to land/fly that thingy, that OKTO2 is mounted on top of the fuel tank, below the solar panels. For delivery via a rocket there is a docking port at the front, which allows the rover to be mounted on top of that rocket. Could also dock with other vessels on the surface.

After the rover was built and tested I went to the VAB and loaded the rover there and turned it 90 degrees into vertical orientation. Next I build the rocket below as usual, see screenshot in a previous post. 

Now the tricky part, get the rover to the surface of Mun - undamaged!  
Two options here:
Either land the rocket and decouple the rover and let it drop to the surface. For this, activate the OKTO2 probe core, decouple the docking port and immediately active SAS and set it to radial out. When the rover stands properly on the surface, switch to the RC-001S to allow for driving operations.
Second option is autonomous landing. Bring the rover rocket into a low Mun orbit, lower the Pe to roughly behind the planned landing site, decouple the rocket from the rover, activate the OKTO2 and the twitch engines. Land as usual.

I hope I could answer your questions, @Popestar  

Edited January 14, 2021 by VoidSquid

[vv3k70r]

10 hours ago, Popestar said:

What do I have to do to get that?

There could be somthing with Your question if You get such an answer.

7 hours ago, Popestar said:

I'm having difficulty with that because rovers are horizontal and rockets are vertical

You can rotate things? ctrl+shift to align it to absolute reference?

7 hours ago, Popestar said:

How do I land a rover?  If it is in the rocket vertically, and I need it horizontal...how do I do that?  HOW?

You just decouple rovers with reaction wheels in normal mode and fall on wheels. Change control point to one on rover.

When You are on wheels You change reaction wheels mode to SASonly.

Leave rocket where it landed.

7 hours ago, Popestar said:

I feel like an idiot at this point.

Everybody had at the beggining. You are welcome in the club.

5 hours ago, Spricigo said:

Is frustrating for people trying to help, too. They offered ideas, guides, explanations, clarifications, examples, counterexamples and yet you don't show any sign of attempting to follow the instructions given.

Because it is hard to state question in subject where is no experience.

[jimmymcgoochie]

If I was on a PC right now I could add pictures, but I’m not so I can’t. Maybe I’ll add some later?

How to build a rover:

1. Pick your probe core. The RoveMate is the obvious choice here but anything which can do an ‘up’ and ‘forward’ control point will do as this allows you to fly it like a rocket to get somewhere then drive it like a car once you’re there. OKTO2 is another good choice as it has good SAS modes (RoveMate just has the basis mode and no prograde/retrograde etc.) and is both small and light. Stick it down in the SPH as horizontal building is easier for rovers plus it defaults to mirror symmetry which you want for a rover.
2. Add rover related accessories- wheels, obviously, then power supply and storage, reaction wheel- which the RoveMate and OKTO2 don’t have and which other probe cores only have feeble versions of, so you need at least one proper RW to avoid flipping and crashing- science kit, communications kit and possibly some lights or a chair for a Kerbal. With a RoveMate the probe core itself can work as the chassis with everything else bolted on, but otherwise some kind of structural parts like girders or I-beams are recommended to make it sturdy and give you space to attach everything; if you’re using fuel cells then a fuel tank can also do the job. Make sure there’s a free node on the bottom of it, and possibly on top too; you’ll need those to attach rocket-y bits.
3. Test drive your rover around the KSC. Feel free to use ‘hack gravity’ to simulate your target body’s conditions or even cheat it out there to drive it around, then if you find any issues (or don’t!) revert it back to the SPH and pretend that was just a computer simulation. Inside a computer simulation... Fix problems, repeat step 3 until you’re happy with it.
4. Switch to the VAB editor by pressing the plane shaped button in the top left. Keep your rover loaded and it will still be in the VAB editor, but when you pick up the root part it will rotate; correct that rotation so it points up again (wheels down) and start attaching your landing rocket to the bottom. You won’t need another probe core on the rocket bit as the rover itself will provide the control if you switch its control point to ‘up’- which might just be called ‘default’- during flight
   Generally speaking there are two ways of landing a rover on an airless body- rocket underneath as for Lunokhod and Chang’e missions, or with a skycrane as for Curiosity/Perseverance: putting the rocket underneath is the simpler way of doing it but comes with the potential problem of getting the rover off the top of the rocket and onto the ground without breaking anything (hence why the real missions drove their rovers off a flat platform using a ramp), whereas a skycrane is more difficult but allows you to land directly onto the wheels as well as stick parachutes on it for bodies with an atmosphere (like Duna/Mars, for example). If you’re going for a skycrane, make sure your rockets don’t point too close to the rover or stuff will get fried by the exhausts and explode!
5. Test your deployment system by cheating the rover into orbit of your chosen target then trying to land it. Make changes as needed to make it work with a bit of fuel to spare, repeat step 5 until you’re happy with it.
6. Build the rest of your rocket to get where you’re going. This bit needs to get you from Kerbin’s surface to the orbit of your target body that you tested with in step 5, or lower.

If you can’t (or won’t) cheat/revert then try the KRASH mod which lets you do simulation runs in pretty much the same way.

[Echo__3]

For reference, I think Popestar is talking about this video.  I put a RC-L01 Remote Guidance Unit on top of the Service Bay (2.5m). The probe core has reaction wheels which is why I could easily control the craft as I landed.

 

[Spricigo]

  So, i received this private message:

[snip]

That is not a response to the person that sent me this message. That is an open message  of gratitude and acknowledgement to the great community I meet in this forum.

I'm autistic. That means , among other things, that I have trouble with social interaction and sometimes express myself in ways that most of you will find awkward and hard to understand. As I struggle with the basic interactions most of you take for granted, I'm aware that some people take me for rude or stubborn but I lack the skills to amend or avoid those situations. Is painful sometimes.

But that is not how I feel when interacting in this forum. This forum was always a safe space, where I was welcome, respected, included. I'm sure it will continue to be. That is why this is not a response to the person that expressed hate. Hate don't belong there. I will not let hate take me away from this awesome community and all the patience and support they always had to me. Maybe you didn't noticed but every interaction we had was very important.

Thank you, for sharing the love to KSP with me.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Vanamonde

[Popestar]

So, I think I've gotten this down.  I built, launched, and landed on the Mun.  Tomorrow will lol be trying to drive, and I'll give images and thanks all around!

[Vanamonde]

I've been in the situation of asking for help and getting answers that missed the point or didn't make sense to me, and I've been in the situation of trying to offer help to someone who was frustrated by it. Most of us on this forum have. With that in mind, please try to exercise patience whichever side you're on. If someone really bothers you, you can set that person to ignore and no longer see the posts. But harsh words in either direction are uncalled for. 

[MrWookie2U]

You guys are making a big fuss out of landing on the mun!

 

JUST CRASH INTO IT AND USE EJECTION!! Boi!

 

it’s what I do- when I’m not launching missiles at my rocket creation lab. (RCL- the real definition of it)

This post is not to be mean, it’s to say what I do when I’m not working on a real rocket and just using the game for a laugh or 50

 

pls take no disrespect from it ok

Anyone else ejected a kerbal in re entry? It’s so funny 

(what?)

Edited January 16, 2021 by MrWookie2U
Sorry, my cousin (age 14) posted this when he was supposed to be playing Pokémon go. So sorry

[Popestar]

35 minutes ago, MrWookie2U said:

Anyone else ejected a kerbal in re entry?

Not ejected, but I did try to EVA at 10km once.  Jeb lost his grip, and that tourist ship crashed into the KSC.  HARD.

[Popestar]

Ok, so, I did it.  I finally figured this out.  Before screen shots, I have to give props/thanks to the following people for dealing with my frustration and anger and lack of being a nice guy through this.  Some things in this game I just cannot figure out up front, and the more frustrated I get, the harder it seems for me to get that one thing that makes it all click.  Anyhow, thanks to the following:

• @VoidSquid
• @Echo__3
• @jimmymcgoochie
• @king of nowhere

Without these 4 people, I would not be able to say that I finally got this done.  So, what did I do?  I'll tell you!  And show you!  First, I created a rover in the SPH.  I used the RoveMate, turned it gold, and dropped a bunch of science junk on it.  You'll notice the Atmospheric Fluid Spectro-Variometer; I did not realize that this was only applicable on planets with an atmosphere.  I assumed I could do a scan of the lack of atmosphere on any body and get science, but I was wrong.

Then, I added a docking port to the underside and put this in a Service Bay.  I added reaction wheels, solar panels, a MechJeb controller (because I'm not sure if MJ requires the controller or not), a couple of antenna, and some fuel tanks so it could land on the Mun.

I then moved over to the VAB and created a rocket to take this thing to the Mun.  I found out (later on during flight) that I needed struts to hold the boosters in place and so it wouldn't go flying wherever it wanted to...but I failed to grab a screen shot with the struts in place before launching.  I placed a relay probe on top of the rocket using the HECS probe core; that has a better SAS option than just the RoveMate, and I need a relay satellite hovering around the Mun to send data back to Kerbin (I don't believe this rover is coming home ever).

So I launched and got the rocket in orbit, with the solar panels on the relay extended so I don't run out of juice.  I've made that mistake several times and ended up losing control of the rocket/probe until the sun comes up...and that's annoying.

Did a Hohmann transfer to the Mun, and got the rocket in orbit.  I then separated the Relay Probe from the rocket and, using MechJeb, landed the Rover on the Mun.  I realized that I had far too much liquid fuel in the tank I used for the upper stage, and wasted about half of it when I decoupled the rover from it; I will make sure (I hope) to not do that in the future.  But funds are digital and imaginary and easily made up, so I'm not too worried.

For those of you paying attention, you'll see the Service Bay in the above image has 2 solar panels extended...but a previous image shows 4 solar panels in the SPH.  Yeah, I thought I was gonna need those here, and I found out I didn't.  Which is ok; I have a plan for them yet!  Anyhow, I took the rover out, gathered some science...and can't transmit?

I spent a good 10 minutes asking myself "What the frak" before going into the tracking station and realizing that the relay probe wasn't in range.  So I time-warped a bit, got that nice green line from the relay probe to the rover...and success!  Science transmitted back to Kerbin!  I gained 73 science from Mystery Goo, Temperature Scan, and Pressure Scan in the Highlands on the Mun.  Thanks to the solar panels and batteries, I don't have too worry about power (until the Sun goes down), so I'm gonna drive this thing to the Midlands next.

Where I landed is of utmost importance:  Ore.  Greater than 70% concentration.  And I used the Surface Scanning Module in the Highlands...but I'm not entirely sure what that does, really.  I did a previous orbital scan (I dropped one of those orbital scanners on a satellite I had to build for a contract), so I knew where to land.  But I'm not sure what the surface scanner does any differently.  I'll drive the rover around and see what happens in different biomes, I guess.

Anyhow, I did it.  I built a rover, put it on a rocket, launched, landed on a different celestial body, and drove it around a bit and collected some science.  Now I have to drive it to another biome and gather more science...but I can only get science from Temp and Pressure now because the goo canister is useless.  Unless I send a scientist up there to reset it.  Hmmm...

Oh, I mentioned something about a plan for the solar panels on the Service Bay, didn't I?  I'm thinking that, when I'm done on the Mun with this thing, I might put it back in the Service Bay, launch from the surface of the Mun, and send it to Minmus to do the same scanning and science gathering.  I know that the Service Bay and the Rover might never make it back to Kerbin, and I'm ok with that.  But I can at least try to get as much use out of it as I can, right?  Right!

[VoidSquid]

Congrats @Popestar, nicely done! Was worth the efforts, wasn't it?  

 

9 minutes ago, Popestar said:

(because I'm not sure if MJ requires the controller or not

If I remember correctly, MJ has been changed a while ago to be partless

On 6/4/2019 at 8:59 AM, sarbian said:

MJ is is partless if you also have ModuleManager installed

 

[king of nowhere]

congrats @Popestar. I especially appreciated the creative use of a cargo bay. Now that you broke this wall, making more complex rovers will be much easier.

May I shamelessly plug my own stuff and give an example of what can be achieved with a complex rover when you add in enough functions?

https://kerbalx.com/king_of_nowhere/dancing-porcupine-the-indestructible-rocket-car