Separating myth from history, who was real and what actually happened?

[KerikBalm]

Just a rando thread for people to debate the historicity of various stories.

Was there a Robin Hood/ is there a kernel of truth to the stories?

Was there a king arthur/ is there a kernel of truth to the stories?

Was there a Romulus and Remus that founded/ is there a kernel of truth to the stories? (ignoring the raised by wolves part)

What about the *ahem* relations of recently founded Rome with the sabine women?

Are the vikings sagas describing skraelings actually stories of the first contact between people of Europe and North America?

Was Euhemerus right about any of the origins of the myths of the greek gods? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerus

Can I go on to certain figures of currently practiced religions (as opposed to greek gods), or is that verboten on this forum?

 

[YNM]

I'd say that history from such a long time ago will remain entwined between being a reality that happened and being an interpretation from the public, both in the past times and the recent times, of the events. I mean, let alone histories from a long time ago - even things that are happening right now more than often have the exact same treatment.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't completely not seek any part of reality of the past at all - archaeological work is still important - but we have to remember the reality we live in as well, because some of these histories and their interpretation sometimes are the sole reason the world is currently the way it is. And yeah sure some of them are bad things, and in fact historical justifications are often sought after to legitimize a present situation, but there are present peace and truce as well that are founded by the less-than-real histories of the past.

While it would be nice to fully grasp that no part of humanity is ever going to be perfect (and it will never be perfect), not everyone is ready for it, because no one is perfect.

I only have these other two to show, at least the current side of revealing history and how people react to it.

Spoiler

What we often use the past as :

 

And if you think revealing the truth is that simple... well it isn't, sadly.

 

 

[starcaptain]

It should be distinguished in such a thread that legends are not the same things as mythologies,  and that "mythology" is actually a highly technical word in regards to history.

Mythology refers specifically to the group of narratives that fundamentally root a society's identity and general direction of their culture.

Something being mythical is not the same thing as being untrue or fiction; many myths are considered highly important by the adherents or those who identify with the story that the myth explains. There is some dispute as to where the lines are drawn between the study of mythology, the study of theology, and the study of folkloristics.

A very famous mythology is the story of Genesis in the Bible. The mythologies regarding things like The Great Flood, or the patriarch Abraham have great importance to many religious believers,  independent of the literal veracity of the accounts. There are mythologies for every major world religion and most of the people groups of the world.

And flatout saying "myths are untrue", thems fighting words. 

Edited January 21, 2021 by starcaptain

[YNM]

12 minutes ago, starcaptain said:

Mythology refers specifically to the group of narratives that fundamentally root a society's identity and general direction of their culture.

Something being mythical is not the same thing as being untrue or fiction; many myths are considered highly important by the adherents or those who identify with the story that the myth explains.

Does this mean there're actually recent (by recent I mean under 200 yrs old) myths as well then ?

[starcaptain]

1 hour ago, YNM said:

Does this mean there're actually recent (by recent I mean under 200 yrs old) myths as well then ?

Yes! For one example:

The Kalevala is widely regarded as the mythology of the Finnish people. It was first published in 1835, and was an important work of literature in giving Finns a sense of cultural and eventually national identity, rather than just being a minority in a vast region that had long been tossed back and forth between the Swedes and the Rus. The contents of the Kalevala are a variety of poetic works woven together into a narrative. Each poem (canto) is derived from other poems that have been passed down from oral histories and tales, which varied from village to village. The author and historian, Elias Lönnrot, tried to unify all of them into one compilation that most Finns could agree was a good representation of their old tales, and keep it as a written record that would preserve those poems.

The Kalevala has since become a seminal work in the study of Finnish culture, and many things mentioned in it are still retained with importance of national pride to this day. For example, the sampo, the kantele, and saunas. The Kalevala was a inspiration for J.R.R. Tolkien's "Middle Earth" Legendarium, with the character Väinämöinen  being a direct inspiration for Tom Bombadil.

Edited January 21, 2021 by starcaptain

[YNM]

10 minutes ago, starcaptain said:

The Kalevala is widely regarded as the mythology of the Finnish people.

I mean, given that not a lot are even known of how exactly they ended up there, it'd be nice to have something to fill the gap. Wish we'd know more how they ended up there...

[kerbiloid]

3 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

Was there a Robin Hood

A full dungeon of them.

3 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

is there a kernel of truth to the stories?

Of course.
What expensive could he take from the villagers rather than from traders and tax inspectors?
Who would support him with supplies in the forest if not pay to the greedy villagers with the money taken from the robbed rich men?

3 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

Was there a king arthur/ is there a kernel of truth to the stories?

Didn't you watch the documentary with Keira Knightley?
Of course, it's simplified a little, but still good.

3 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

Was there a Romulus and Remus that founded/ is there a kernel of truth to the stories? (ignoring the raised by wolves part)

Didn't you watche the Romulus series last year (and another one movie, smth like First Father or so, can't recall),
A very impressive picture of the people of that epoch. 

(That was puzzling me: how do the Ancient Romans combine the absolutely primitive and archaic cults and high culture. And how did the ancient proto-Germans and proto-Slavs look at that cultural level.
I.e. I can understand how this works in, say , Africa, but how was it looking in Europe, in another climate.
Now I have seen this by eyes...)

Also highly recommend "The Iceman" (2017) about the O(e)tzi-like persons and the "Quest for Fire".

3 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

What about the *ahem* relations of recently founded Rome with the sabine women?

Probably, a traditional practice of initiation/un-overpopulation.
The male youngsters get kicked from the village to rob or found their colony.
The Sabines were the nearest candidates to steal the brides.
The home life unlikely was differing from any other village.

4 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

Are the vikings sagas describing skraelings actually stories of the first contact between people of Europe and North America?

And who actually wrote all those sagas for the illiterate peasants (sometime calling themselves vikings), if not the bored monks living there since Romans and writing fanfics during the long winter nights?
And why does the magic Futhark look exactly like a Latin alphabet cut on plank wooden/horn across the fibers?

4 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

Was Euhemerus right about any of the origins of the myths of the greek gods? 

I.e. a mix of Proto-Indoeuropean gods and local fertility goddesses and their companion gods survived under the umbrella of the nearest goddess cult.

[TheSaint]

8 hours ago, YNM said:

Does this mean there're actually recent (by recent I mean under 200 yrs old) myths as well then ?

If you want another example of a relatively recent mythology: Very little of what you have seen and heard about the American Wild West (i.e. the Western Frontier from roughly 1860-1910) in popular culture happened the way you heard or saw it. But a significant fraction of the American population bases a large part of their cultural identity on it.

[kerbiloid]

Somebody should tell about ninja and kung-fu...

[MKI]

Here's another interesting way to think about these sorts of questions.

Let's start with that there is 1 objective truth. In that only 1 thing actually happened a certain way at a certain time with certain people for certain. (lol)

Even if your the person who saw/experienced something directly, you could be lying to yourself, or just not understanding that objective full truth. Something like watching a magic show is permitting one self to get fooled, but who says you aren't "fooling yourself" all the time? Something as simple as the screen your reading right now, is it flashing or static? Its actually flashing but your eyes can't tell the difference, so you already "fooled yourself" thinking its static. Its less about fooling yourself, and more about realizing people are just fallible. 

So, take that to all these legends, and even mythologies, and stories and things get really hard to interpret what is objectively true or what isn't. If there is only 1 objectively true story, odds are what your actually reading is only a tiny part of that. Its possible only broad elements are true, but grasping that actual pure objective truth is nearly impossible, if not truly unattainable. Even an "official historical account" is only a broad recount that will have holes, mis-interpretations and any other mix of potential errors. 

Truthfully, it doesn't really matter if it actually occurred the way it did or not. I usually don't see that as the point. Great stories/legends/mythologies are still around not because they are full accounts, but because they mean something. The fact these stories mean something is still just subjective. Where you can get something out of it differently than someone else, but it is something.

 

 

[YNM]

1 hour ago, MKI said:

Something as simple as the screen your reading right now, is it flashing or static? Its actually flashing but your eyes can't tell the difference, so you already "fooled yourself" thinking its static.

True for CRT, no longer true for LCDs.

On 1/22/2021 at 1:09 PM, kerbiloid said:

Somebody should tell about ninja and kung-fu...

Language barrier is the reason for it I suppose. I'm fairly sure the sole reason why we don't see as much things from there crop out in the english-speaking part of the internet has to do with the different language being used. And if there're any that crop up it's usually the impression of english speakers...

[kerbiloid]

2 hours ago, YNM said:

Language barrier is the reason for it I suppose. I'm fairly sure the sole reason why we don't see as much things from there crop out in the english-speaking part of the internet has to do with the different language being used. And if there're any that crop up it's usually the impression of english speakers...

I mean those fancy black suits and other theater scenery.

[YNM]

2 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

I mean those fancy black suits and other theater scenery.

Well, it is what it is, a theatre. It's not entirely correct.

[Vanamonde]

Sorry, guys. Religion is off-limits on this forum because it's proven to be a subject people cannot discuss without getting angry. Some content has been removed.