Caveman my Nano-crystalline Diamond attempt

[paul_c]

Another design iteration, this time with 3x SRBs for a less slender/wobbly design:

It didn't work out - the I_SP of SRBs are much lower than liquid, so with the 18t limit, too little performance. So I'll need to stick with borrowing Thuds for now. However, it did have enough performance to throw it at Minmus:

Will it make it.....yes! a Pe of about 700km but it will do, with the remaining fuel I put it into a low/high eccentric orbit and was able to send some useful science back. Also it has the HG5, so its one relay at least, at Minmus, which might help for early future trips.

[paul_c]

First Minmus landing: 

After looking at the science points situation, it makes sense to do a bit of Minmus early on. So...it will need a relay network. I've now sent 5 vessels to Minmus and I'm getting better at hitting the target, having transferred some skills from Mun approaches, I've not missed yet. This afternoon's work is to sort this rabble into some kind of coherent network:

[paul_c]

The science is rolling in quite nicely now:

This craft was specifically designed to be able to visit multiple biomes. It transmits temperature and pressure only though, because taking Goo/Science Jr to use once isn't efficient on part count. The bottleneck is electrical power though - transmitting takes quite a lot (72U and 108U, specifically - yes I am recording in that amount of detail!) So it was only able to do 3 biomes. But 19 science/trip is a happy rate for now.

There is another critical decision coming up on the order of upgrading: General Rocketry; Electrics and Miniaturisation. Each has benefits but I need to carefully plan whether I'll encounter a dead end along the way. There is the option of doing returns from Minmus too, which should earn even more/quicker. Crewed flights are a little way off...I'm kinda in Luna era rocketry, not Apollo era yet.

[Jacke]

All out of likes today!

 

55 minutes ago, paul_c said:

The science is rolling in quite nicely now:

I know those sorts of landers work on Minmus, just can't help thinking them odd, so tall and without legs.

 

55 minutes ago, paul_c said:

This craft was specifically designed to be able to visit multiple biomes. It transmits temperature and pressure only though, because taking Goo/Science Jr to use once isn't efficient on part count. The bottleneck is electrical power though - transmitting takes quite a lot (72U and 108U, specifically - yes I am recording in that amount of detail!) So it was only able to do 3 biomes. But 19 science/trip is a happy rate for now.

That's odd.  My numbers from the data are 80 and 120 units of charge respectively for Temperature and Pressure Scans.  I wonder why they're 10% lower.

 

55 minutes ago, paul_c said:

There is another critical decision coming up on the order of upgrading: General Rocketry; Electrics and Miniaturisation. Each has benefits but I need to carefully plan whether I'll encounter a dead end along the way. There is the option of doing returns from Minmus too, which should earn even more/quicker. Crewed flights are a little way off...I'm kinda in Luna era rocketry, not Apollo era yet.

This is the part I'm dreading, having to send multiple mission to Mun and worse to Minmus.  Mun I'm sure I can get an encounter and with enough delta-V padding complete a mission.  Minmus I've yet to get except with patched conics.  Getting the phase angle right will be critical.

Now only if I knew the phase angles for Mun and Minmus.

 

[JAFO]

7 minutes ago, Jacke said:

I know those sorts of landers work on Minmus, just can't help thinking them odd, so tall and without legs.

This one of mine would probably give you the heebie-jeebies then...  

 

14 minutes ago, Jacke said:

This is the part I'm dreading, having to send multiple mission to Mun and worse to Minmus.  Mun I'm sure I can get an encounter and with enough delta-V padding complete a mission.  Minmus I've yet to get except with patched conics.  Getting the phase angle right will be critical.

If you go back through this thread, you will come across 3 different techniques for nailing a Minmus transfer.  All of them work well..  just take your pick.

[paul_c]

5 minutes ago, Jacke said:

That's odd.  My numbers from the data are 80 and 120 units of charge respectively for Temperature and Pressure Scans.  I wonder why they're 10% lower.

 

What transmission/comms % do you see? I consistently have 73% now - it earns a little less science, but its the "limit" of what I can achieve, the relays have 4x HG5 and the parts count limit is the bottleneck here. Since the long term aim is to return all science anyway, 73% is enough for now (but my first landing's ~20% isn't). 

5 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Now only if I knew the phase angles for Mun and Minmus.

 

Its NOT 45deg!!!! Everyone thinks it is, but it isn't! I've not measured it but I believe for Mun, its about 55 to get a nice encounter. 60-65 gets a direct hit. So I tried around 50-55 (by eye) for Minmus and it seems to work. Part of the skill is (by eyeball) launching at the AN or DN of Minmus' orbit, then flying 6deg north (or south as appropriate) to 'match' the inclinations well. You can still wait for the actual AN/DN if you want, but the better its matched, 1) the less critical "when to go" is and 2) the encounter is on the same plane, rather than being a point in time/space, so the period around the Ap of Kerbin at ~46.2Mm has a much longer zone that is within the path of Minmus' SOI, so encounter is more likely.

In theory you could use an external tool and determine the times the "launch window" is optimal, I don't know of such a resource though. Also of course there is a variation in how a gravity turn is flown (the time spent going only up must be factored in) so its not possible to get it exact by using an instantaneous launch window - at least not in Caveman (if an autopilot flew the ascent, it might be repeatable enough).

Also, every Minmus trip I've done a mid-course. I do it at around 12Mm ie the Mun's orbit, of course you need to ensure the Mun is not even vaguely in line with Minmus otherwise it will get in the way (literally).

3 minutes ago, JAFO said:

This one of mine would probably give you the heebie-jeebies then...  

 

If you go back through this thread, you will come across 3 different techniques for nailing a Minmus transfer.  All of them work well..  just take your pick.

Having the HG5 antenna at the bottom of the 3rd stage is the worst part for me - if that breaks on landing, its mission over. It needs to be there because it 1) needs to be as low down as possible, for 2nd stage drag balance/aerodynamics considerations, 2) needs to be on 3rd stage.

If it weren't for the caveman limitations, I'd be using at least 2, but the 30 parts limit....

[Jacke]

@paul_c, if you can find some time to post screenshots of Experiments in action along with how much Charge was consumed and other details, that would be wonderful.

My reply in a spoiler, because this is getting off-topic for @paul c's NCD Career.

Spoiler

 

2 hours ago, paul_c said:

What transmission/comms % do you see? I consistently have 73% now - it earns a little less science, but its the "limit" of what I can achieve, the relays have 4x HG5 and the parts count limit is the bottleneck here. Since the long term aim is to return all science anyway, 73% is enough for now (but my first landing's ~20% isn't). 

It's not from recent play.  Still mixing updating my Science Checklists and bringing my 1.11.1 installs on line.

That's straight from past play (pre-CommNet/KerbNet) and theory-crafting on the numbers I have:

Data size = Experiment baseValue * Experiment dataScale
Charge used = 10 * Data size

For example, Temperature Scan has (prior to the effects of Body+Situation and % Science Rewards):

baseValue = 8
dataScale = 1.0
Data size = 8
Charge used = 80

I've used those numbers in the past and they've worked.  The  % Transmission Efficiency value is in the Science part (xmitDataScalar) and as far as I know and seen, they've not affect Charge used.  I don't know how CommNet connectivity does affect it, but it shouldn't reduce it (and at worse should increase it to represent retransmission of data).

But at least it's less charge than I'd plan for.  Once I have more information and experience, I can revise that.  Starting with your observation that Charge used now seems to be 9 times the Data size.

 

Quote

Its NOT 45deg!!!! Everyone thinks it is, but it isn't! I've not measured it but I believe for Mun, its about 55 to get a nice encounter. 60-65 gets a direct hit. So I tried around 50-55 (by eye) for Minmus and it seems to work. Part of the skill is (by eyeball) launching at the AN or DN of Minmus' orbit, then flying 6deg north (or south as appropriate) to 'match' the inclinations well. You can still wait for the actual AN/DN if you want, but the better its matched, 1) the less critical "when to go" is and 2) the encounter is on the same plane, rather than being a point in time/space, so the period around the Ap of Kerbin at ~46.2Mm has a much longer zone that is within the path of Minmus' SOI, so encounter is more likely.

In theory you could use an external tool and determine the times the "launch window" is optimal, I don't know of such a resource though. Also of course there is a variation in how a gravity turn is flown (the time spent going only up must be factored in) so its not possible to get it exact by using an instantaneous launch window - at least not in Caveman (if an autopilot flew the ascent, it might be repeatable enough).

Also, every Minmus trip I've done a mid-course. I do it at around 12Mm ie the Mun's orbit, of course you need to ensure the Mun is not even vaguely in line with Minmus otherwise it will get in the way (literally).

Thanks for those details.  I'm aware of the theory, but as for practice...

Except for that NCD Mun flyby, all my Mun and Minmus missions are in the past.  As in KSP 1.0.4 and before in BTSM.  Mun missions were all on Free-Return Trajectories (which isn't that much more delta-V than Hohmann).  Minmus missions, due to limited charge with ongoing consumption and no solar panels, were Fast Trajectories.

For the Mun, I use the rule of thumb to start the burn when Mun is 1/4 Kerbin radius from rising to start burning prograde and to stop when the Ap is 15,290,000m.  That's what I used for my NCD Mun flyby.  It was far from good, with only 39m/s of delta-V left in the tanks on return.

I need to polish up my rocket designs (@IncongruousGoat said I could go without a heat shield...whoa), fly the launch better, and get a better process for Trans-Mission-Insertion.  And when doing trajectory adjustment burns after SOI transitions, get them right the first time (Trans-Kerbin mid-course correction, I'm looking at you).

 

Quote

Having the HG5 antenna at the bottom of the 3rd stage is the worst part for me - if that breaks on landing, its mission over. It needs to be there because it 1) needs to be as low down as possible, for 2nd stage drag balance/aerodynamics considerations, 2) needs to be on 3rd stage.

If it weren't for the caveman limitations, I'd be using at least 2, but the 30 parts limit....

Because we can't do the detailed build of spacecraft as in real-life that provide airstream protection and drag and mass balancing, I wish more parts that were addons and not going to be root were Physicsless.  Their mass and drag gets added to the Parent part so they're not ignored and that is a good simulation of what's actually done.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Jacke

[paul_c]

There's 2 factors for transmission - let's call them "% due to being transmitted instead of recovered" and "% due to imperfect comms link". The first is probably fixed, although varies for each kind of insrtument/experiment eg for materials-related stuff its low, for temp/pressure its average and for crew report/EVA its 100%. The second is a non-linear relationship which I believe is max. at 80% comms connection (green bars) and at low comms, is practically zero.

Anyway, its moot because transmitting data is clearly a "prelude" to recovering a big haul of data from Mun/Minmus in NCD. I am yet to work the numbers but it will be interesting how much a full haul of all science data from Mun/Minmus yields, since this defines whether I need to make 1, 2 or more interplanetary trips. And there's a few tech items which would help those, like 2.5m fuel tanks, fairings, maybe even RCS. Some of the tech nodes are little/no use though so can be lumped into the "end game final return trip".

[paul_c]

This is the "Minmus Returner" - a moderate redesign, now 2 stages (to save on parts.....and because Minmus trips aren't fuel-limited now), and carrying the kit to get home too (chute, heatshield). This one will return just 1 biome's Goo and Science Jr results. And yes, I'm still in hibernation, I'll wake it up with 800m to go then the landing gets "busy":

With 70% signal, transmitting the SJ results would earn 5.5 science points:

Ran out of fuel!!!! I muddled the capture orbit bit, it might explain it partly......but I have a Plan B:

At/near Pe, the comms come alive again and I have 87% link quality, so I am able to transmit the science results instead of the planned recovery. 

Note that with 87% comms link, the Science Jr results now earn 6.1 points. So if a lander has fuel remaining, science results, and could get into better comms range, its worth flying it then transmitting those results.

[paul_c]

To add, if you suffer a "% due to imperfect comms link" loss in science points, there is a silver lining to the cloud in that the electrical charge needed to transmit it, (seems to) scale down in proportion to the science points too.

Strategically its an edge case, but if your vehicle had batteries and no solar, and you could somehow (maybe by design) make it so the comms was poor, it could do more "science from ........" contracts before it went dead. Handy for the early Mun/Minmus exploration, where solar isn't yet unlocked and that style of contract pays well for the time/work spent doing them (about 5 mouse clicks).

[Jacke]

1 minute ago, paul_c said:

To add, if you suffer a "% due to imperfect comms link" loss in science points, there is a silver lining to the cloud in that the electrical charge needed to transmit it, (seems to) scale down in proportion to the science points too.

Strategically its an edge case, but if your vehicle had batteries and no solar, and you could somehow (maybe by design) make it so the comms was poor, it could do more "science from ........" contracts before it went dead. Handy for the early Mun/Minmus exploration, where solar isn't yet unlocked and that style of contract pays well for the time/work spent doing them (about 5 mouse clicks).

Hmmm, the charge used scales down with CommNet link quality.  I would have thought it would have no effect or perhaps make it worse.

LOL, I think it's more than 5 mouse clicks overall, though that may be the marginal cost.  If you had a retractable antenna and had its PAW up and were fast, you could try retracting the antenna to see if an interrupted transmission both saves power but also satisfies a contract part.

Not completely sure, but are there even enough "Science from...." contracts available to rotate through, especially considering only two can be active.

And I can't remember where, but I thought somewhere I read that for those contracts, they don't even require the Science to be returned or transmitted, just gathered.  Never tried that and it would have to be tested.  If that's true, it's rather silly.

[JAFO]

27 minutes ago, Jacke said:

If you had a retractable antenna and had its PAW up and were fast, you could try retracting the antenna to see if an interrupted transmission both saves power but also satisfies a contract part.

I seem to recall trying that once. The antenna stayed up until the transmission ended, and then it retracted.

[paul_c]

31 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Hmmm, the charge used scales down with CommNet link quality.  I would have thought it would have no effect or perhaps make it worse.

LOL, I think it's more than 5 mouse clicks overall, though that may be the marginal cost.  If you had a retractable antenna and had its PAW up and were fast, you could try retracting the antenna to see if an interrupted transmission both saves power but also satisfies a contract part.

Not completely sure, but are there even enough "Science from...." contracts available to rotate through, especially considering only two can be active.

And I can't remember where, but I thought somewhere I read that for those contracts, they don't even require the Science to be returned or transmitted, just gathered.  Never tried that and it would have to be tested.  If that's true, it's rather silly.

1. Tracking Station
2. Click on (eg) "Mun orbiter"
3. Click "Fly" button
4. Right click on the thermometer
5. Click on Log Temperature
6. Click Transmit
 

Aaaaaah, 6 clicks! Still, its a nice way to make ~£5000. Up until now, even the better "test xxxxx at yyyyy" pay ~£2000 and need a vessel constructed or tweaked, then flown, then the descent at 3.4m/s on the chute. And "test at launch pad" pay about £500 max.

Contracts can be selected as appropriate because there is no penalty for declining others.

I am looking forwards to the "put satellite in orbit" because they pay about £10k and you can often do 2 of them on the way to something else, what with the requirement to stay in the specified orbit for 10 seconds!

[paul_c]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

 

If you had a retractable antenna and had its PAW up and were fast, you could try retracting the antenna to see if an interrupted transmission both saves power but also satisfies a contract part.

 

Fitting a Communitron 16 then relaying it through 1x HG5 normally produces terrible comms from Minmus. I have an old craft with 1xHG5 and the relays have 4x each. I could retract the relay's aerials, to lower the commnet performance, do a bunch of contracts, then restore the performance.

Or perhaps having something on an elliptical orbit, and waiting until comms drops off, then timewarp until its only just back?

But really the answer is to tactically leave 1x craft in Mun/Minmus orbit/surface each (total 4) which has solar panels and a thermometer, to mop up those contracts for free science. Once solar panels are bought its a non-issue.

[paul_c]

Not much to report today.

I tweaked the design, then went for a 3rd attempt at recovery back home, of Minmus science data. It failed again. Once I added heatshield/science store box/chute/decoupler, the parts count is too limiting. I had traded a little battery power for more fuel but it still wasn't enough, furthermore I could only transmit the "Goo" reading so less of a success than the 1st mission (which didn't return but transmitted both SJ and Goo).

I've spent a lot of the day planning, in particular I know visiting the 17+9 biomes of Mun/Minmus, potentially multiple times, is going to be a slog. So I've been trying to minimise these. I could save 3 potential trips by going for docking ports earlier (then a trip can be a dual-purpose, transmit and later return). And depending on the nature/ambition of the Duna/Ike/Sun trip (which will be required) I may save a lot on the need for further Mun/Minmus trips for crew reports.

So its looking up - I can plan to be efficient, rather than simply worrying about "is it possible". Of course, the Duna trip and much of the techniques there remain untested, but my Diamond run gives a fairly good idea on getting the spaceship to send there, more/less right.

[paul_c]

Strangely, the key to progress has been unlocking and gaining access to the T400 fuel tank. The lower part count means I'm not squeezed on science kit or batteries. So, yet another design iteration means I've optimised it for transmitting data. Minmus' performance requirement is ironically less then Mun (due to its slower de-orbit-to-land speed) so I went there first:

Minmus Great Flats:

Poles:

Highlands:

Slopes:

Then a Mun-specific tweak (less aerials, more fuel); Mun Twin Craters:

Mun NW Crater:

 

I need one more successful Mun trip then I have 90 science points and can do the next tech upgrade. I'm 99% sure I'll actually go for "Miniaturisation" before "Electrics", because it buys docking ports and it means the remaining Mun/Minmus trips could be made dual-purpose, to immediately transmit some more data and also re-orbit for later recovery for full points. This should save on the total number of Mun/Minmus trips, which I understand from previous NCD attempts, gets very grindy.

Edited February 22, 2021 by paul_c

[paul_c]

Miniaturisation upgrade done. It also includes the "EVA Experiments Kit". Every little helps:

Ouch! They're expensive!!!

Vehicle designed, launched (flies quite well...), made it to Minmus no worries:

I realised I had a bunch of excess fuel, so a redesign with 2x of each science instrument can do 2x biomes per trip:

After 5 biomes of data, I have enough to do the next upgrade, so they'll need retrieving and returning. So...:

Vaguely similar orbits. Note, I have gone for an eccentric one, sweeping down to below the "near space" line of 30km altitude:

Getting closer and closer:

Its dark but it will soon be sunny.....first try at mating:

So close now.....

The technique seems to be to aim for the docking port, then turn and wait for the coming-together. 0.1m/s approach didn't work at first, they didn't meet at the docking ports, swapped paint a bit, then drifted slowly away. So, another try with 0.4m/s and it worked!

2 more dockings are needed. I'll use up the remaining fuel in the one that isn't returning; note the docker-returner has 2 docking ports (for aero/weight balance, and they're only 20kg anyway). I have docked the one with least fuel first, so the last one has the most fuel, helping the home journey along. I know that you can't really rely on the dV indication in KSP any more due to the weird config and later undocking of the empty module.

[paul_c]

Another sideways docking done:

And another:

Trip home. With extra fuel in the modules, we use it wisely to reduce the re-entry to a gentle one:

Safely re-entered and on chutes:

A nice science haul:

"Electrics" upgrade done. This means we can relax a little bit on "earning" science and do some development work. So.....we will use the remaining Minmus science to gain experience in manned (Kerbal'd) flight. Bill is the first Kerbal to do a trip to another body and is excited:

He hasn't noticed there is no chute or heatshield.......but I think things will work out okay, I have a plan.

With the crew module, its too heavy to take much else so additional modules will be used for science and extra fuel. 2x biome remote module flown to Minmus too, and docked:

That module flew terribly, doesn't have enough fuel to risk a landing, so it will be used for near & far science then jettisoned (it can still do science contracts though). A few design iterations later, and 2x biomes' is too ambitious so 1x biome at a time will be visited:

Much more performance. Also the deltaV readout is inaccurate, due to fuel flow and docking etc. Anyway, with the SJ and  Goo we head to Midlands, for max science return:

Science Junior is used, so its pinged off the spaceship:

Last of the "extra" fuel is used, so that is detached too:

Just enough fuel to get Bill safely back into orbit after visiting 3 biomes and gathering useful science:

[paul_c]

With the modular approach proven to work, its time to assemble and send more modules to Minmus. A "science & fuel" and a "fuel only" module is assembled in LKO, the 'extra' engine jettisoned, then flown to Minmus:

...where it docks with the crew module, and jettisons its engine:

Forwards becomes backwards becomes forwards, its very confusing! But the idea is the Science Jr will be expended first, so its at the top.

Biome hopping (SJ gone, still have a fuel module):

More science and fuel on its way:

Guess the biome I'm hopping to:

After a few more modules, Minmus is pretty thoroughly covered for science gathering, so its time to bring Bill home. The remaining fuel got me this far, note I wanted to be within the Mun orbit to avoid a random encounter:

This is the "fuel & return" module:

The Kerbin orbits were inclined, eccentric and wide but I made the rendezvous and docking (nearly there):

Things are heating up! Some of the science instruments are getting cooked:

Its always a relief when the chutes deploy:

A nice haul of science from Minmus. Also, 10x crew reports were transmitted too (they don't have a transmit/recover penalty). I tried 3 times to find "slopes" again and gave up, so I'm 2.5pts short of a full sweep. I hope it doesn't haunt me!:

This trip was more about proving the technology for crewed spaceflight and safe return, than ultimate science points (the 5 science points per crew report is low compared to other experiments). But I have no chance of establishing interplanetary comms, so a crewed flight is going to be essential there. For now though, its back to the Mun and it will be a slog to extract as much science as possible before the fun of more distant worlds.

[Blaarkies]

How does the terrier engine use the fuel through battery and probe core? I thought you would need a fuel pipe between the docking port's parent part and the terrier to get that going

[paul_c]

You don't need a fuel pipe - fuel is routed through the docking port and those parts. The only part it can't route through is a heatshield, hence the final "returner" stage needing to include and use its engine the same side as its tank, rather than just being a "fuel tank in the sky" supplying the existing engine like previous modules. The original fuel tank/engine underneath the command module can be detached though, leaving a craft with flying direction in the opposite sense (and a controller in that opposite sense too, making reversing control inputs unnecessary).

[paul_c]

This may explain better:

With the various dockings, the craft I'm flying swaps from forwards to backwards a number of times - it gets confusing! The last-but-one flying input is a retrograde burn (controlling through the opposite-sense-attached controller) then that engine/controller/fuel tank is detached, leaving the original CM with a front/top mounted heatshield, so it flies forwards into the atmosphere so it enters heatshield-first. Then the chutes just underneath the heatshield flip it upside down, which sets the CM right-way-up.

[paul_c]

So, with the Minmus campaign I can buy an upgrade. After some deliberation, I chose "Propulsion Systems" which gains me access to the Spark engine. A minor redesign produces this:

In time-tested Caveman style, we are after simplification. It has everything needed and nothing it doesn't. And the performance! ~3000 m/s dV in LKO is a good target to achieve, to send it to the Mun, do a landing and re-orbit:

I have to relearn to fly with the Spark, it has much lower TWR but safely made it to Mun Highlands with plenty dV to return to orbit and dock later for the science. And of course, I can transmit and re-gather temp and pressure:

16 more trips to go....then 1 dockings and a return to Kerbin. I don't think I'll do crewed missions to the Mun, although I will need to do the sums in case I desperately need to.

[king of nowhere]

where are you getting all the money for those missions? I guess you are meanwhile running dozens of survey missions with a single probe in a polar orbit

which shifts the question to "where the hell are you finding the time to run all those missions to make money, run all those mun/minmus missions, and still make daily updates"

[paul_c]

I'm getting good at clicking...and clicking....and clicking the mouse on the contract screen. 95% of the contracts are suboptimal, but "science from surface/space around Kerbin/Mun/Minmus" can be completed in 6 clicks and pay £2000-£6000. Since the rocket costs about £12000, 2 of these can pay for a mission. Lately, the contract style "satellite around Mun....." has come up, these pay about £10k so doing one of these basically pays for the mission. Some of them even earn science points!