Crypto Currency for KSP modders?

[harrisjosh2711]

Edit: Because I have received so much attention-

With the recent success of meme crypto currencies like dogecoin and Elons Musk sporadic behavior of tweeting them to the moon. I believe it is an strategic time to prepare our community.... just in case, right?  Elon needs space candidates and rocket seats filled. Who better to fill them than people who love space? One could argue that he needs us more than we need him.

I intened to throw Elon Musk a bone and need your help to do it. Love me or hate me for it. Its in good intention. I apologize if you feel differently. I have always maintained that I would give the community free coins. If you guys make something of this. Elon will take notice. He loves jokes, irony, space, rockets, technology, & ingenuity. WE MEET ALL THE CRITERIA! 

Introduce, Kerbcoin.

The crypto for space nerds to buy rockets! 

Join me on the mun! Lol

Original post: Kind-of crazy idea, but what if we teamed up and created a super cheap cryto currency to tip to our favorite modders on the KSP forum. Hear me out, it wouldn't be worth much now, but in the world of meme coins today. Heck it could potentially make modding actually worth peoples time in the future. As the original creator of kerbalized SpaceX, I can attest, It takes so much effort to get the mods out at the pace and quality people on this forum do. I've witnessed the power people can have when they come together and that leaves me asking myself... Why cant we do something like that? I'm learning about crypto atm by creating my own currency and figured hey, this could be a cool test case.... If something like this existed, how do you guys think it would work?  Like could we start by giving everyone on the forums a certain number of coins if they wanted them?  Any ideas really.

Edited February 19, 2021 by harrisjosh2711
Too much misinformation and attention.

[Vanamonde]

We'd rather people didn't try to do financial transactions through the forum. There's just no end of ways it could go wrong. 

[harrisjosh2711]

4 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

We'd rather people didn't try to do financial transactions through the forum. There's just no end of ways it could go wrong. 

That makes zero sense. Financial transactions occur all the time on the forum by way of "donations".  Perhaps I wasn't clear. You have a crypto wallet and download my mod, which gives you for absolutely free, 10,000 kerbincoin (made up name). You can instantly send those kerbincoin to another address simply by scanning it with your phone. No banks, etc, the block chain does all that. The block chain has no need for oversight like this forum. One might consider it a replacement for likes, because let's me honest, they're lame and useless.. Atleast a free crypto could by chance catch a meme on Twitter, pop in popularity and buy a modder new rig or something. We know you aren't doing that. Or are you? I know I can't afford that.

Further, I disagree. Do you have any mods for ksp? Large ones, you created from scratch. Modders will take any financial help they can get. I know you're a moderator but I've personally not seen any work from you. You can find a link to my work on ksp. I have given to this community but want to give in back in a more meaningful way to the ones really putting in the work. Modders.

Edited February 16, 2021 by harrisjosh2711

[harrisjosh2711]

and technically I'm not sure how it would work yet. Im still working on designing its scalability in a way  elon musk would support. He said on Twitter he would only create his own crypto "if necessary". Its not necessary, elon, we can do it. Just have to distribute it and not let it centralize into a small group. What better way than to start its distribution completely free in my favorite community, I no longer hang out in, but holds a special place in my heart.

Edited February 16, 2021 by harrisjosh2711

[Vanamonde]

Donations do not happen through the forum. Some people link to external sites which handle the transaction. Those services are dedicated and (one hopes) reliable and reputable, but we're not entirely sure we should even allow those. This should be a site for discussion rather than commerce. 

[harrisjosh2711]

37 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Donations do not happen through the forum. Some people link to external sites which handle the transaction. Those services are dedicated and (one hopes) reliable and reputable, but we're not entirely sure we should even allow those. This should be a site for discussion rather than commerce. 

There is no need for external sites that charge you transaction fees in a block chain. Its a dedicated and secure framework for peer to peer transactions. I agree, external sites could present an issue. No need for those in the block chain. You simply need a wallet address.

37 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

 This should be a site for discussion rather than commerce. 

I argue that logic is flawed. We live in "generation like". Likes are simply a worthless currency invented by forums to buy reputation. Remove that thumbs up and I will relent this is a forum of discussion rather than commerce.  Its time the worthless 'likes' be replaced. Reddit has realized this. They allow members to purchase and send trophies, which can then be redeemed (all for a fee of course). There's a better idea, just no one has seen it yet.

Edited February 16, 2021 by harrisjosh2711

[Gargamel]

As moderators, we do not speak for SQUAD, Private Division, or Take Two Interactive, as they, collectively or individually, are the legal owners of this forums.   They set the rules for how this forum works, and one of the directives they have laid out is we don’t want to be handling financial transactions on the forums themselves.  
 

So, the TLDR; this will be a hard No.  

First, off implementing this takes work.    Work costs money.  Since SQUAD et al are for profit entities, they won’t implement this without taking a cut of the transaction.  There would be no incentive to do so unless they took a cut.  And it’s doubtful the vig they lay on each transaction would be small enough to make it worth your time of using the system here, where there are much more affordable places out there that do the same thing. 
 

Secondly, there  are already systems in place for supporting modders.  If they want to, they can start a Patreon page.   Or you can PM them to send them some cash via pay pal.    Or if you’re set on some sort of cryptocurrency, you can use one of the already existing exchanges.   
 

Thirdly, Kerbal Money Laundering Program anyone?    
 

So again, this is a hard no.   Too expensive for little return on investment, already have alternatives, to much risk for abuse.    But those are only the small reasons why it’s a no. 
 

[harrisjosh2711]

1 hour ago, Gargamel said:

As moderators, we do not speak for SQUAD, Private Division, or Take Two Interactive, as they, collectively or individually, are the legal owners of this forums.   They set the rules for how this forum works, and one of the directives they have laid out is we don’t want to be handling financial transactions on the forums themselves.  
 

So, the TLDR; this will be a hard No.  

First, off implementing this takes work.    Work costs money.  Since SQUAD et al are for profit entities, they won’t implement this without taking a cut of the transaction.  There would be no incentive to do so unless they took a cut.  And it’s doubtful the vig they lay on each transaction would be small enough to make it worth your time of using the system here, where there are much more affordable places out there that do the same thing. 
 

Secondly, there  are already systems in place for supporting modders.  If they want to, they can start a Patreon page.   Or you can PM them to send them some cash via pay pal.    Or if you’re set on some sort of cryptocurrency, you can use one of the already existing exchanges.   
 

Thirdly, Kerbal Money Laundering Program anyone?    
 

So again, this is a hard no.   Too expensive for little return on investment, already have alternatives, to much risk for abuse.    But those are only the small reasons why it’s a no. 
 

I dont understand how this would use the forum for financial transactions. You guys keep saying this but its 100% factually untrue. This is exactly what it would look like.

Donations accept at- DH5yaieqoZN36fDVciNyRueRGvGLR3mr7L

no link, no web sites. You enter you account. copy & paste my address, Hit send. End of story!

Is patreon paying you some of the fee or something? This is a good thing for the little guys. 

right now its donations accepted at-

https://www.paypal.com/us/home

if you are infact telling me I can't share my wallet address than you are also telling me I can't share my PayPal address. Correct?

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by harrisjosh2711

[Gargamel]

If you want to share your wallet address for donations, go ahead.   Put it in the links on your mod thread.    We don’t care.   That’s handled off site.   You can’t require a donation for access to parts or entirety of a mod though.  

[harrisjosh2711]

1 minute ago, Gargamel said:

If you want to share your wallet address for donations, go ahead.   Put it in the links on your mod thread.    We don’t care.   That’s handled off site.   You can’t require a donation for access to parts or entirety of a mod though.  

Well duh... I think u guys are getting a little ahead of yourselves here. Thats why I asked for advice.... this is simply a learning experience. I generally just try to find a reason to create something than to just mindlessly work....

[harrisjosh2711]

@Gargamelnow that everyone is on the same page. what would be the implications of creating a mod, like ckan, that gave everyone who downloaded it 10,000 free kerbincoins, assuming they followed all dependencies like owning a wallet to store them?  These would be stored on the users hardrive. They are intended to be used as a peer to peer block chain "like" system outside the forums.  Eq: I like a mod. I tell said modder by sending him some worthless kerbincoin. Lol, come on man, its hilarious. This really isn't intended to be serious.  I only joke that it could ACCIDENTALLY become valuable because that's exactly what happened to dogecoin.  I simply want to experiment with new technology in videos games. I thought this was the place for that??

 

This idea of kerbin money laundering really hurts me to hear. How dare you accuse  me of something like that. My history here should prove I'm not a greedy individual. I spent over 1000 hours creating kerbalized spacex for absolutely free. 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by harrisjosh2711

[kerbiloid]

If the coin is just a toy, who needs it...
If the coin is real, why not just send money...
If the thread about how the forum  works, it probably belongs to the "how the forum works".

[harrisjosh2711]

8 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

If the coin is just a toy, who needs it...
If the coin is real, why not just send money...
If the thread about how the forum  works, it probably belongs to the "how the forum works".

Mods are just toys, games are just toys. Who needs them? No one, WE WANT THEM!

You are perfectly welcome to send money. Infact I'm 1000% sure the devs would appreciate that. You would however be among a very select few.  

No its not about how the forum works. Moderators inserted themselves making false accusations because old folks are weary of new technology.  Nothing new about that.

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by harrisjosh2711

[Gargamel]

Let me get this straight.....

 

You want to create a fake cryptocurrency, with all the complexity that entails, and which is to given out freely en masse to any user of the standalone application which manages said cryptocurrency, in order to emulate the already existing system present on the forums, in order to show gratitude and appreciation for work done on a mod?  
 

If I have that correct, then sure, knock yourself out.   

[harrisjosh2711]

4 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

Let me get this straight.....

 

You want to create a fake cryptocurrency, with all the complexity that entails, and which is to given out freely en masse to any user of the standalone application which manages said cryptocurrency, in order to emulate the already existing system present on the forums, in order to show gratitude and appreciation for work done on a mod?  
 

If I have that correct, then sure, knock yourself out.   

Actually, since every single crypto is built off bitcoin code, which is licensed MIT, every crypto is essentially a carbon copy, slightly modified. You can create one in 5 minutes. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by harrisjosh2711

[kerbiloid]

How can they be sure that the random hash sums generated on their PCs for their money paid for electricity, aren't used in any real cryptocurrency random hash sum consuming software?

Upd.
Explaining more clearly.

How can they be sure that your toycoin client software doesn't actually generate numbers for your bitcoin wallet,  mining bitcoins for you?

Edited February 16, 2021 by kerbiloid

[harrisjosh2711]

4 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

How can they be sure that the random hash sums generated on their PCs for their money paid for electricity, aren't used in any real cryptocurrency random hash sum consuming software?

Upd.
Explaining more clearly.

How can they be sure that your toycoin client software doesn't actually generate numbers for your bitcoin wallet?

What you talking about? Are u describing whats known as a double spend? I'm not here to argue the fundamentals of block chain security with you. Im doing this to learn about crypto. If you have a problem with that im sorry. It simply makes it fun to create it with a goal in mind. Thats all it is dude. Wth.....

[kerbiloid]

5 minutes ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

What you talking about? Are u describing whats known as a double spend? I'm not here to argue the fundamentals of block chain security with you. Im doing this to learn about crypto. If you have a problem with that im sorry. It simply makes it fun to create it with a goal in mind. Thats all it is dude. Wth.....

How can they be sure that the generated numbers are not primarily for bitcoin, and then used as a toy numbers in toy system.

Why "double spend"? Bitcoin would use it once. Toycoin is just a toy to show, it doesn't affect bitcoin, no doubles appear.

KSP has tens millions of PC. If several thousand start mining, it's a low-class distributed calculation network.

[Vanamonde]

I was under the impression that this thing was intended to have some real world value since you referred to it as a "crypto currency." But now it sounds like you're suggesting something that has no actual value? How would that be different from the "like" system we have now? 

[harrisjosh2711]

35 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

I was under the impression that this thing was intended to have some real world value since you referred to it as a "crypto currency." But now it sounds like you're suggesting something that has no actual value? How would that be different from the "like" system we have now? 

Value is subjective. No crypto currency has value unless you believe it does. So yes, it will be worthless. My wildest dreams would be that everyone passed it around, and someone like elon musk, says "fate loves irony"  #kerbincoin, and all of sudden it becomes REAL. Out of my hands. Ksp is a cool game, with a great community, it could happen! So the difference in the "like" system would be that there's the slightest possibly it could become valuable. 

36 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

How can they be sure that the generated numbers are not primarily for bitcoin, and then used as a toy numbers in toy system.

Why "double spend"? Bitcoin would use it once. Toycoin is just a toy to show, it doesn't affect bitcoin, no doubles appear.

KSP has tens millions of PC. If several thousand start mining, it's a low-class distributed calculation network.

I will cross that bridge when I get it to it. I have not decide on the hash rates, etc. I plan on it being inflationary at a decreasing rate. You sound like you know alot. Perhaps u would offer up some advice if I run into trouble along the way?

Edited February 16, 2021 by harrisjosh2711

[MKI]

After going through the above thread I think this falls into Law of the Instrument. IE When you wield a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

13 hours ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

Hear me out, it wouldn't be worth much now, but in the world of meme coins today.

As someone that has been following Cryptocurrency for a few years now, not only for the technical aspect, but also out of financial curiosity, crypto is very much one of those things that is a very popular hammer. One of the more interesting aspects of crypto currency is that its demand, and thus is cost, is directly related to how much perceived value it has. IE the more places you believe crypto can be used, the more it can be perceived to be worth. This explains a large number of cryptocurrencies out in the wild, the large number of "use-cases", and the general "hype" around the technology. Even though the technology is decades old, and the most important use-case is still just shady dealings.

So in that sense, only the hype is new. So you could "bet" on crypto just as well as you could GameStop stock. Or more traditionally you just bet on a multitude of institutions within existing financial systems and let the market grow, rather than bet on a hypothetical. However that isn't nearly as "meme-able". 

30 minutes ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

No crypto currency has value unless you believe it does. So yes, it will be worthless. My wildest dreams would be that everyone passed it around, and someone like elon musk, says "fate loves irony"  #kerbincoin, and all of sudden it becomes REAL.

This actually isn't unique to crypto. Cash has no value unless everyone who uses it believes it does. If I gave you 1 billions dollars in flat cash, you'd feel rich. Unless there was an apocalypses and all existing financial institutions get destroyed. Now everyone trades in water bottles, and you die of thirst since you cant drink or eat dollar bills, essentially dying as your too "poor" to even sustain yourself.

The main difference is that anyone can be the "treasury" to their own financial system by creating their own cryptocurrency. The trick is then getting enough people to "buy in" to the same system so the perceived value increases. Which may or may not be the case here.

 

I want to point out that I agree with the underlying idea that modders deserved to get some kind of support. However building an entire cryptocurrency system around it has less a chance of working than setting up a traditional "workshop/marketplace", where user's can search and pay for work done by modders, either thru donation or direct payment. Something like PayPal is already an existing and highly successful system. Which to put things in perspective, and bring things full circle, one of the main architectures of PayPal is none other than.... Elon Musk, which is how he made his initial fortune.

 

PS. As a PSA on all things cryptocurrency. It probably is a better use of ones time and finances to take more traditional routes to investing, rather than buying into what is almost a Ponzie scheme. Technically if your "on top", you can make a lot of money through such schemes, but I'd consider that rather unethical. If that is a blocker is more up to you however.

Edited February 16, 2021 by MKI

[harrisjosh2711]

@Vanamonde, @Gargamel,  @kerbiloid

I know you skeptics, but wouldnt it be ironic if the ksp community invented the future currency of mars lol. I know someone here is smart enough to do it. Thats why I came here. Im not the genius. Im the visionary.

[MKI]

17 minutes ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

@Vanamonde, @Gargamel,  @kerbiloid

I know you skeptics, but wouldnt it be ironic if the ksp community invented the future currency of mars lol. I know someone here is smart enough to do it. Thats why I came here. Im not the genius. Im the visionary.

On the science/economic side, I believe the initial Mars colony will probably be socialist in nature, where everything is owned "by the people".

Which might sound super political, but it isn't as that's exactly how small scale societies work, since its the clearest and simplest, and obviously the colony is probably focused more on not freezing on the surface of Mars rather than "who is richer". 

 

However at a certain point once the colony is large enough and probably self sustaining, such a colony probably would end up with a centralized financial system just like most countries here on Earth. This will be because however people get to Mars, there will have to be centralized authority, otherwise the entire operation will fall apart. Only once there are competing authorities on a self sustaining Mars, could there be potentially competing financial systems. Then you end up essentially back at the colonial days on Earth, where different institutions force "their will" on others, or they end up working together using an agreed upon system of exchange.

You could argue "the people" will force some decentralized financial system, (marscoin?) but you forget... someone owns the network infrastructure and you end up back where you started with some central authority managing the financial infrastructure at some level haha.

Edited February 16, 2021 by MKI

[harrisjosh2711]

@MKIi believe the financial aspects can be solved. For one, cryto is in the .com era. This type of speculative investing and pump stocks is not unique to the crypto market. One issue almost all crypto has is a cap on the number of coins. How can you distribute 22 million bitcoins among 8 billion people? Thats not realistic. A true currency has to be inflationary to atleast scale with population growth. That is why I call bitcoin a unit of storage not a currency. 

Another issue is centralized distribution. The mid life of a cryto currency needs to scale faster because few will pick it up from the beginning (leading to whales) and then everyone will quickly jump on the train. Which creates all kinds of issues with stability. No crypto is currently like this because it will decrease the value of the crypto for all holders. Crypto creators have simply been greedy. 

10 minutes ago, MKI said:

On the science/economic side, I believe the initial Mars colony will probably be socialist in nature, where everything is owned "by the people".

Which might sound super political, but it isn't as that's exactly how small scale societies work, since its the clearest and simplest, and obviously the colony is probably focused more on not freezing on the surface of Mars rather than "who is richer". 

 

However at a certain point once the colony is large enough and probably self sustaining, such a colony probably would end up with a centralized financial system just like most countries here on Earth. This will be because however people get to Mars, there will have to be centralized authority, otherwise the entire operation will fall apart. Only once there are competing authorities on a self sustaining Mars, could there be potentially competing financial systems. Then you end up essentially back at the colonial days on Earth, where different institutions force "their will" on others, or they end up working together using an agreed upon system of exchange.

You could argue "the people" will force some decentralized financial system, (marscoin?) but you forget... someone owns the network infrastructure and you end up back where you started with some central authority managing the financial infrastructure at some level haha.

I predict a corpo type government in the beginning and a revolt to a socialist government. 

[MKI]

 

30 minutes ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

Another issue is centralized distribution.

I don't really see a way around the centralized distribution model of current cryptocurrencies. Which essentially kills the main selling point of if being decentralized, which ultimately makes the entire concept impractical as a viable financial alternative.

Regardless of the technology, having a centralized model means its easier to get people connected, on-boarded, reviewed, tracked and protected.

Without that its nearly impossible to scale as everyone suddenly becomes their own financial advisor, banker, teller, fraud protection, and security. If someone steals your bitcoin wallet its over, as there's no one to contact, no fallback, no security advisor. Heck if you forget your password you suddenly lose access to all your funds with no alternative route. Yes the technology will protect funds from being forged, but that is only a single vector of a financial systems security model. For comparison, 100$ USD bills are super hard to forge, but no one leaves them lying around on the ground. You put them somewhere secure, or just deposit them in a bank so you don't have thousands of dollars sitting in a safe in your closet. You probably already have some fraud protection so if someone steals your credit card, they cant go spend all your money, and even if they do, the financial system will be able to help you deal with it, so overall there is just less personal risk.

So using cyrpto means taking on massive personal financial risk for increased freedom and anonymity, where the critical crypto users are those doing shady dealings which can afford that risk as they need that anonymity. 

However for a main-stream person to make a full jump just makes no sense, as the risk vastly outweigh the reward. Leaving cyrpto on the side as more of a novelty, rather than an actual viable alternative.

So cryptocurrencies fundamentally cant go mainstream because a decentralized model fundamentally isn't practical. Mind you it has nothing to do with the underlying block-chain technology itself, it has to do with the idea you can use block-chain to create cryptocurrencies that are better than existing financial institutions. That idea just doesn't hold.

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by MKI