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I feel like a way to help squash bugs in KSP2 would be to have the community able to mess around and find bugs, and then, report them, whenever a bug was found, you could click a pause menu button to report the bug, just add a screenshot of the bug when applicable and a description of what causes the bug.

Currently, It feels like KSP2 is being pushed back every day, I feel like a basic pre release, with just the basic mechanics added(engines, fuel tanks, colony structures, the planets, etc) If this was a thing, they could build up hype(if they did it 6 months before actual release or so) this way the hype will build as youtubers, etc, play the game and show off the features, Note, It SHOULD NOT be a private beta, It should be a public beta that ANYONE can use.

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There was a similar game where they tried that, with very mixed results. Some of the issues:

  • The channel through which the pre-releases were released was not the preferred channel of some of the gamers. This led to claims of discrimination, forced vendorship, etc
  • As the game was under development, new features would be introduced before some of the bugs were fixed. This led to a constant barrage of complaints "why not fix the bugs instead" if someone didn't like a particular feature
  • Gamers would actually confuse features with bugs and report "still no MP" (let's just pick a random pair of letters instead of "X") as if missing that feature was a bug, instead of a missing feature
  • Providing a game for free while it's under development turned out a really bad business model. Even when at one point the pre-release was actually sold, there was a certain entitlement and expectation that any future completely new versions of the game would be free as well, or at least free for those who'd paid for the pre-release at a vast discount
  • While any of these sticky points can be explained away with "if they don't like it then don't buy it" but it would increase the risk of disenfranchising the community

Of course comparing other games to KSP2 is like comparing apples to oranges but I can see why they're not going that route.

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21 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

There was a similar game where they tried that, with very mixed results. Some of the issues:

  • The channel through which the pre-releases were released was not the preferred channel of some of the gamers. This led to claims of discrimination, forced vendorship, etc
  • As the game was under development, new features would be introduced before some of the bugs were fixed. This led to a constant barrage of complaints "why not fix the bugs instead" if someone didn't like a particular feature
  • Gamers would actually confuse features with bugs and report "still no MP" (let's just pick a random pair of letters instead of "X") as if missing that feature was a bug, instead of a missing feature
  • Providing a game for free while it's under development turned out a really bad business model. Even when at one point the pre-release was actually sold, there was a certain entitlement and expectation that any future completely new versions of the game would be free as well, or at least free for those who'd paid for the pre-release at a vast discount
  • While any of these sticky points can be explained away with "if they don't like it then don't buy it" but it would increase the risk of disenfranchising the community

Of course comparing other games to KSP2 is like comparing apples to oranges but I can see why they're not going that route.

Oh, quit mucking around, that's the history of controversies for KSP1.

Edited by shdwlrd
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How many people "beta testing" would actually just play instead of beta test? Yep, everyone. It may work for a small indie game that's early in development, so it's not even an open beta, it's just alpha version where everything can change before the actual release. We've seen it before.

Private Division, and I am sure of that, can afford good QA team, and knowing how passionate the devs are, they're also going to spend a lot of time "messing around and finding bugs", because they already know their game from the inside. You know, the case of guy walking into a bar, and asking where the bathroom is.

So no, with such anticipated title as this, no longer an indie game but a full blown AAA sequel, public beta is not a good idea. They can just go with bugtracker and deal with that after release.

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I know some games release there games for BETA like early access. But. I’m not sure if take two will do that. They might do that for the KSP you tubers though.

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the thing is that you dont want to release a beta to early either. there are many games that where more popular during beta than the actual release because it took so long to finnish.

but it would be cool if they released a beta with just kerbin and the mun for free wich would also work as a free demo fo the game. also with no docking. it has everything needed to find buggs and you can try the game. this could be released maybe a few months before ksp2

Edited by jastrone
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1 hour ago, jastrone said:

beta with just kerbin and the mun for free wich would also work as a free demo fo the game. also with no docking. it has everything needed to find buggs

No it hasn't. No exoplanet discoveries (there could be hidden bugs there, like for example the telescope won't work if its altitude is 2462km), no docking? Then how the Eve I am supposed to check bugs related to docking?

Problem is, every mechanic has to be available because even after a year of testing with the best QA team in the world, this community is so creative that we will find bugs anyway. In places nobody wouldve thought it's possible to find them.

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Public betas are useless for QA or bughunting. Most people can’t write useful bug reports and aren’t motivated to learn. They just waste developer time when they try to understand what, if anything, really went wrong.

Public betas can be useful to tune, balance, tweak the UI etc., but then only if they’re based on telemetry and analytics rather than explicit user feedback, and these things take time and effort to develop too.

I don’t think a public beta would help make KSP2 any better.

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55 minutes ago, Brikoleur said:

Public betas are useless for QA or bughunting. Most people can’t write useful bug reports and aren’t motivated to learn. They just waste developer time when they try to understand what, if anything, really went wrong.

Public betas can be useful to tune, balance, tweak the UI etc., but then only if they’re based on telemetry and analytics rather than explicit user feedback, and these things take time and effort to develop too.

I don’t think a public beta would help make KSP2 any better.

This 100%. I can't even count on my 2 hands and 2 feet how many times I have seen people run into a bug and when asked to submit it in the bug tracker to get it fixed they are like "nah". 

Thankfully my gut feel is that there is a 99.9999% chance they will do a private beta with a select group of users (particularly modders), and the value out of that will be billions of times more useful to the developers than anything a public beta would produce from people outside that already mentioned group.

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7 hours ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

Nope, "Pre-Release" is a final release for all intents and purposes.

Factorio changed a lot about their game in EA quite well. I think the key to doing so though is good communication between the devs and the audience as to why the changes are being made and how the vision of the game is being altered. Factorio's FFF definitely helps them a lot in their relationship with their community

 

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1 hour ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Factorio changed a lot about their game in EA quite well. I think the key to doing so though is good communication between the devs and the audience as to why the changes are being made and how the vision of the game is being altered. Factorio's FFF definitely helps them a lot in their relationship with their community

 

Factorio != KSP2

There are fundamental, base-level systems that if not done correctly the first time won't ever be fixed once it goes live in KSP2. This is why I'm so adamant about no EA, no "Beta", and allowing them as much time as they please. Because KSP1 is held down by the cruft from it's past, and no amount of patching would fix it entirely. Therefore, KSP2 isn't just unlikely to benefit from this idea. It's much, much more likely to hurt it in the long-term.

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On 2/16/2021 at 5:34 AM, The Aziz said:

Problem is, every mechanic has to be available because even after a year of testing with the best QA team in the world, this community is so creative that we will find bugs anyway. In places nobody wouldve thought it's possible to find them.

*Cough Cough* Danny 2462! *Cough*

Edited by Kerminator K-100
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1 hour ago, Kerminator K-100 said:

*Cough Cough* Danny 2462! *Cough*

It's all fun and games until you get far enough away from the solar system that the game starts rounding down planetary orbits to the point that they look like pixel art done on an etch-a-sketch

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Pre release/early access for the general public? No.  Nor do I think it is a good idea for KSP2.

The only exception may be (as I and others have said before) a demo of some sort a few weeks before full release, but I think that is unlikely.

As for releasing early playtest and review versions to some YouTubers etc (with NDA and embargo of course) then I would be very surprised if they didn't.

 

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On 2/16/2021 at 1:53 PM, The Doodling Astronaut said:

I could see a demo releasing a month before the game's release but nothing more.

Thats what I mean, in a way, just a month before release, let the community have at it and test preformance(Dev team is working on really good PCs, What happens when it is run on a laptop, analytical data transmitted after crashes a month before release can help to improve preformance) another thing this may be good for, finding out what can cause the game to crash, and what caused the crash(remember, devs are on amazing PCs, so are modders and youtubers) So there are some bugs(such as things that on lower end computers, can cause a crash, instead of framerate drop on high end gaming PCs) Again, beta releasing a month or so before release and just sending data about framerate, crash reports, etc, technical stuff, would be fine and would be a way for them to iron out the last couple of bugs(such as a scenario that causes a crash)

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Remembering some stuff from ksp1 development, I don't think some people would be okay with automated telemetry transmission or whatever. Hell, I personally opt out of every analytics program I can, if I know about them, but I don't disconnect from the internet just in case something gets sent and Steals My Precious Data about how many rockets I launch per week.

Then again, limited demo is limited and thus the players won't catch bugs related to content that isn't there.

[rant] Darn it, space missions last for years and decades, few generations worked on Voyager missions already, and people here who play SPACE GAME are so impatient that they can't wait a bit more to play something new. Disappointing.[/rant]

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2 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Then again, limited demo is limited and thus the players won't catch bugs related to content that isn't there.

This ^^

A demo is exacty what it claims to be.  Whether it has limited funtions, features, or a time limit or whatever.  It's purpose is purely to let potential customers try before they buy. 

Also, if it has bugs it will deter customers, not encourage them.  

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