Finally cracked Tylo (sort of) -- would like craft feedback

[Klapaucius]

I Mission Buildered my way into a 100,000 high orbit around Tylo with the goal of landing and getting back into orbit.  This lander has over 5000 delta V, but it is using a Nerv mounted on top (once the stage is dropped, the ship is reoriented.)   

I managed, after a lot of tweaking and about 15 quicksaves and probably 2-3 tries at each of those to get it landed and back into orbit (AP and PE around 105,000) with 2608 delta V left over.   So I know the craft works, but a small mistake is pretty much fatal.  Considering the total delta V of the craft is 10,738, I would say I am quite lacking in optimization.

 

The parameters I set myself were:

1. No Vectors. I wanted to see if I could do it without them.

2,  The base lander/orbiter I am happy with. It has a lot of Delta V and the goal was to be able to even escape orbit.  I wanted to use both the lander can and the Munar Excursion module. Thus, there is a reasonable amount of weight. I was not going for a lightweight mission.  The fully fueled lander weighs 12,900 kg.

3.  What I am not convinced I have done very well is the bottom bit.  I found it a real challenge to find a combination that would get me on the ground, allow me to take off again, and not fall over. Since the craft is so tall, I put on pretty wide gear.  Having said that, I did not want it any wider than it already is. The idea eventually is that it would be launched from Kerbin, so I don't want the shround sticking out too far.

It worked, so that is no small thing, but it feels like overkill and underskill.

4. Eventually I will figure out how to build the aforementioned launch vehicle, but I am a reverse engineering the mission.

5. Some of the stuff, like the gold tanks, just look cool. I'm not immune to that.

 

So, I'd be keen on any constructive feedback about what to do with all the none lander bits, basically everything below the lander can.

Both the craft and the Mission file are on this Google Drive link.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wUi4jE2MZC_MddMpEbE50JFjCQuja-tU?usp=sharing

Thanks in advance 

Stills from various points in the Mission are pasted in order below...

Spoiler

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Klapaucius
typo

[Guest]

The obvious suggestion is to leave the nerv section in orbit and dock with it after to save hauling all that mass down and back up. 

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, FruitGoose said:

The obvious suggestion is to leave the nerv section in orbit and dock with it after to save hauling all that mass down and back up. 

was coming to say exactly that. landing on tylo is almost 5000 m/s on the round trip, you don't want to get saddled with any extra weight. so you should leave everything you don't need in orbit. take off that weight from your lander, and you'll be able to get away with many less engines and fuel too.

aside from that, not much else to improve. tylo requires a lot of deltaV and a high thrust, so you must have a big lander. people get away with smaller landers by using command seats strapped on a baguette tank as last stages, but i don't like that. i want to feel like i have a real spaceship

[18Watt]

As @FruitGoose and @king of nowhere mentioned, the nuke engine is the first thing I’d lose.   That said, I find Tylo very difficult.   Any time I can get anything to the surface and back I’m happy.  Nice job!

If you are planning multiple trips to the surface, consider using ISRU refueling.  That saves a lot of weight.   However,

• Solar panels are less effective at Jool, so you might need alternate power sources.
• Works best if you have an engineer, which might add weight you hadn’t planned on.
• If you need to land in different locations on Tylo, you’ll be tempted to bring the ISRU equipment down and back for every landing.  That is a lot of weight.

[Klapaucius]

On 4/22/2021 at 4:38 AM, FruitGoose said:

The obvious suggestion is to leave the nerv section in orbit and dock with it after to save hauling all that mass down and back up. 

True, but as I mentioned, the idea was to land a lot of weight anyway. So the question is: how to optimize that.

 

Ultimately, ISRU makes more sense, and that is on the cards once I get my head around this.  

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Klapaucius said:

True, but as I mentioned, the idea was to land a lot of weight anyway. So the question is: how to optimize that.

sorry, i don't get that.

i mean, you want to land a heavy payload on tylo, great. you want to land multiple crew pods, maybe habitats, stuff. what does that have to do with landing an engine you won't need? If you just want a heavier lander, you may as well carry down an ore container.

especially because, besides reducing unnecessary payloads, there really isn't much you can do to optimize tylo. You need 4500 m/s (make it 5000 for safety), and you need all that with a fairly high twr, and that's it. you can't really cheat on that. your whole system actually looks pretty good as far as landing and orbiting your intended payload. there's nothing i'd change about it except removing dead weight. you could use slightly different tanks, or arrange them differently, doesn't change things. all you need is those 5000 m/s and that twr > 1.5.

Personally I tend to set up staging with a heavier second stage, to have a first stage with 1500 m/s and a second stage with 3500 m/s. this way, I can reuse the second stage to land on laythe too, after refueling. But once I did the opposite, used a small and underpowered lander as last stage, a lander intended only for low gravity world; and I strapped some bigger rockets on it that would stay halfway through the ascent. in both cases, design was dictated by wanting to reuse the last stage for something else, and not by any specific need for tylo.

 

with isru it becomes much easier because you can land from orbit, refuel on the ground, orbit again, rejoin a mothership. you only neeed 2500 m/s on your lander. though having to carry heavy mining equipment is going to create some problems, it's still much simpler than the alternative.

Edited April 23, 2021 by king of nowhere