Michael Collins Memorial - KSP2 Poll

[razark]

23 minutes ago, Kerminator K-100 said:

(he was the first to orbit solo though)

John Young, CMP on Apollo 10, was.

Edited May 1, 2021 by razark

[Kerminator K-100]

Just now, razark said:

John Young, CMP on Apollo 10 was.

oh yeah forgot about him

[Starhelperdude]

why would we need a buzz aldrin memorial yet?! he is still alive

[Kerminator K-100]

2 hours ago, Starhelperdude said:

why would we need a buzz aldrin memorial yet?! he is still alive

So because you aren't dead you don't deserve to be remembered?

[Starhelperdude]

1 hour ago, Kerminator K-100 said:

So because you aren't dead you don't deserve to be remembered?

of course he is remembered, but we got a neil armstrong memorial after he died (I think) and we are pretty much to my knowledge only talking about  a collins memorial after he died, so yeah

[Souptime]

oh nonono i sense a baby metallic hydrogen thread happening oh jeez oh truck

[Starhelperdude]

Just now, Souptime said:

oh nonono i sense a baby metallic hydrogen thread happening oh jeez oh truck

I'm sorry if I Offended anyone or if it appeared as if I don't want that people have other opinions

[Souptime]

Just now, Starhelperdude said:

I'm sorry if I Offended anyone or if it appeared as if I don't want that people have other opinions

oh you didnt offend me i just sense the thread is gonna end up like every MH thread since its 1 and a half pages of arguing

mods pls no ban

[Starhelperdude]

Just now, Souptime said:

oh you didnt offend me i just sense the thread is gonna end up like every MH thread since its 1 and a half pages of arguing

mods pls no ban

I meant to everyone

 

[Souptime]

5 hours ago, Kerminator K-100 said:

Also, @Dr. Kerbal can you please stop making your polls public? I like the ability to remain anonymous when I vote on stuff.

well tbh thats his choice, if you wanna be anon but the poll isnt then just dont vote

now no more arguing

[Kerminator K-100]

56 minutes ago, Souptime said:

well tbh thats his choice, if you wanna be anon but the poll isnt then just dont vote

yeah yeah I know, I just got a little upset with everyone. I'm tired and sick and took it out on this thread. Sorry guys

[Souptime]

43 minutes ago, Kerminator K-100 said:

yeah yeah I know, I just got a little upset with everyone. I'm tired and sick and took it out on this thread. Sorry guys

ah yeah, being in a bad mood can affect online stuff

[SunlitZelkova]

7 hours ago, Kerminator K-100 said:

This may be an unpopular opinion but I vote no. I'm sorry if my following post offends anyone.

Here is my reasoning.

Like @razark said, there shouldn't be a memorial to every astronaut. While Michael Collins is pretty cool and I'm upset about his death, he wasn't the first to orbit the Moon (nor was he the first to orbit solo ) and didn't even go to the surface. I'm not even a big fan of the Neil Armstrong memorial because it just feels out of place. And it excludes Buzz Aldrin and the other Apollo astronauts which seemed unfair to me.

Which is my second point. Making a Michael Collins specific memorial excludes every other astronaut and cosmonaut. Other people did much more amazing stuff, like Yuri Gagarin or Alan Shephard. Also the crew's who died should be remembered, Soyuz 11, Challenger, Columbia, Apollo 1, and the ones who almost died, like the crew of Apollo 13. And this is an international game, meaning other countries will be excluded. KSP is full of NASA references and a few ROSCOSMOS and ESA references but has no recognition for JAXA, or any other agency. What they should do instead is have a big memorial for all astronauts, but make it subtle or a menu Easter Egg or a loading screen tip (Thanking astronauts).

Yeah I also like this idea, like the Degrasse Sea on Laythe.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

(From the wiki because I couldn't find the story)

In a forum post from late 2013,^[1] Squad member Jeff C.(NovaSilisko) described an idea he had for connecting many easter eggs into a story concerning a civilization which predated the Kerbals. Experiments with interstellar travel resulted in the homeworld of this "precursor civilization" being flung out into an extremely distant orbit. Before they froze to death, they launched monoliths and other messages onto many planets and moons in hopes of seeding intelligent life. Instead, they created Kerbals, not-so-intelligent life.

The planet would not show up in any map and would be too distant to be observed with a telescope, making locating it by chance nearly impossible. However, players would be able to find transmitters beaming out SSTV signals on various bodies, each one of which would provide part of the orbital parameters necessary to locate it. The planet would be a bit smaller than Kerbin, covered in ruined cities and frozen oceans, and perpetually in twilight due to being so far from Kerbol.

The only element of this narrative which made it into the game is the SSTV transmitter on Duna, which transmits an image originally intended to depict 4 members of the precursor civilization standing on their homeworld, with the logo of their government. Had the narrative story been completed, it would also have contained part of the orbital parameters. Because the story was never implemented into the game, this explanation for the SSTV signal's imagery is arguably non-canon.^[2]

 

 

Also, @Dr. Kerbal can you please stop making your polls public? I like the ability to remain anonymous when I vote on stuff.

Buzz Aldrin doesn't have a memorial because he is still alive. Most of the people who want a memorial for Collins are not advocating for a memorial for every single astronaut.

I can't speak for the OP, but my reasoning for supporting it is that if there is a memorial for one Apollo 11 astronaut, there should be one for every Apollo 11 astronaut (obviously Buzz would not have one until he passes away). I.e., the only reason (for me) there should be one is because there is already a Neil Armstrong one, and if you are going to honor one Apollo 11 astronaut all of them should be honored.

I agree that if the reason for a memorial is simply because "he was an astronaut and he did a lot of amazing stuff" it is kind of a poor idea because it excludes all of the other astronauts and cosmonauts. I don't mean this as an offense to Collins, he was an amazing person who did amazing things, but I think there should be a Collins memorial not because of his merits or what he did per se, but because he was an astronaut on Apollo 11, and there is a precedent for honoring Apollo 11 astronauts with the Neil Armstrong memorial.

Of course, you are welcome to disagree.

Edited May 2, 2021 by SunlitZelkova
Politeness

[MechBFP]

17 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Buzz Aldrin doesn't have a memorial because he is still alive. Most of the people who want a memorial for Collins are not advocating for a memorial for every single astronaut.

I can't speak for the OP, but my reasoning for supporting it is that if there is a memorial for one Apollo 11 astronaut, there should be one for every Apollo 11 astronaut (obviously Buzz would not have one until he passes away). I.e., the only reason (for me) there should be one is because there is already a Neil Armstrong one, and if you are going to honor one Apollo 11 astronaut all of them should be honored.

I agree that if the reason for a memorial is simply because "he was an astronaut and he did a lot of amazing stuff" it is kind of a poor idea because it excludes all of the other astronauts and cosmonauts. I don't mean this as an offense to Collins, he was an amazing person who did amazing things, but I think there should be a Collins memorial not because of his merits or what he did per se, but because he was an astronaut on Apollo 11, and there is a precedent for honoring Apollo 11 astronauts with the Neil Armstrong memorial.

Of course, you are welcome to disagree.

I would agree (despite my dislike of it), if this was KSP 1. Since it isn't we have no idea what things like this are being carried over, if any.

Edited May 2, 2021 by MechBFP

[Guest]

8 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

because he was an astronaut on Apollo 11, and there is a precedent for honoring Apollo 11 astronauts with the Neil Armstrong memorial.

I sincerely hope this precedent is left to KSP 1, it manages to be as subtle as a brick in the face while also be so secluded that most players will never see it (basically it fails at both ends of being an easter egg simultaneously).

If they stop at saying that the Armstrong memorial was a "one off thing" they can avoid opening a can of worms that will bring to discussion to who deserves and who doesn't to be put in the Mun cringy graveyard.

One is a precedent, two becomes a tradition.

[SunlitZelkova]

8 hours ago, MechBFP said:

I would agree (despite my dislike of it), if this was KSP 1. Since it isn't we have no idea what things like this are being carried over, if any.

My logic could be extended to say that Apollo 11 memorials are "KSP tradition" so carrying over both or having only a Collins memorial in KSP2 are as justified as carrying over explosions and funny expressions of the Kerbals.

Nonetheless, I do agree/think (not sure what your opinion is) it should only be a thing/is only justified in KSP2 if there is also an Armstrong memorial in KSP2. If none, there is no justification for a Collins memorial.

16 minutes ago, Master39 said:

I sincerely hope this precedent is left to KSP 1, it manages to be as subtle as a brick in the face while also be so secluded that most players will never see it (basically it fails at both ends of being an easter egg simultaneously).

If they stop at saying that the Armstrong memorial was a "one off thing" they can avoid opening a can of worms that will bring to discussion to who deserves and who doesn't to be put in the Mun cringy graveyard.

One is a precedent, two becomes a tradition.

Currently it is only Apollo 11 astronauts though. It could stop with the three when Buzz passes away, the devs could say "it was only for Apollo 11 astronauts".

Reasons could be given for why there will not be other memorials, the Moon mission club is "exclusive" as of the game's release (2022, no one is going back to the Moon until 2023 at the earliest), a small number of people have been to the Moon compared to low Earth orbit, and maybe even something along the lines of "Apollo was a pretty extraordinary achievement considering when it occurred, so we feel a need to honor it" (it is made by American developers after all). The former two reasons still leave the possibility of other Apollo astronauts open though.

Considering the conversation was bordering on inflammatory earlier, I would like to reiterate you are welcome to disagree 

Edited May 2, 2021 by SunlitZelkova

[pandaman]

In general I tend to agree with what @Kerminator K-100 said.  It is not practical to have memorials to every astronaut or otherwise significant person, but I think it would be nice to remember or acknowledge them in some way.  Naming features after the people, and using artifacts as anomalies to mark notable missions could be one way to do it, and KSP1 does this to an extent already.

Whilst I do feel the Armstrong Memorial  itself is a bit 'out of place' I do regard it as a place of 'homage'.  I seem to remember the devs saying that it was intended mainly as a commemoration of Apollo 11 so they will probably add Collins's name to it, and Aldrin too when the time comes.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Currently it is only Apollo 11 astronauts though.

Currently is only 1 astronaut and only for KSP1 and we're already talking like it's a thing for all Apollo 11 astronauts and it's only natural to extend this to KSP2, and somebody already mentioned that Collins was not the first to be solo in orbit and that reasoning already start adding a whole bunch more forgotten Apollo astronauts.

 

26 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Reasons could be given for why there will not be other memorials, the Moon mission club is "exclusive" as of the game's release (2022, no one is going back to the Moon until 2023 at the earliest), a small number of people have been to the Moon compared to low Earth orbit, and maybe even something along the lines of "Apollo was a pretty extraordinary achievement considering when it occurred, so we feel a need to honor it"

And here you're already talking about adding 13 more graves to what would then really become a small graveyard and bring that number up to 24 in time in a sort of morbid dead astronaut collection.

I would say that is best to leave it as a "one time thing" for the first ever human to walk on another world and even avoiding bringing it as it is to KSP2 (maybe change it into something more subtle like a flag or a spent landing stage with a plaque on it.

Or, maybe, if you really need to remember every Apollo astronaut then add a plaque (always on something subtle like a flag or a semi-buried spent stage) with all their names, even the ones still alive (and without death date).

[Bej Kerman]

3 hours ago, Master39 said:

I would say that is best to leave it as a "one time thing" for the first ever human to walk on another world and even avoiding bringing it as it is to KSP2 (maybe change it into something more subtle like a flag or a spent landing stage with a plaque on it.

 

Michael Collins deserves a memorial more than Neil and Buzz for being the one who had to stay up. Quite sad not many people know him.

[Starhelperdude]

Just now, Bej Kerman said:

Michael Collins deserves a memorial more than Neil and Buzz for being the one who had to stay up. Quite sad not many people know him.

exactly

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Michael Collins deserves a memorial more than Neil and Buzz for being the one who had to stay up. Quite sad not many people know him.

Can I ask you to stop treating everyone not agreeing with this idea as if we don't know who we're talking about or we don't respect him?

That's not the case.

One can be against this idea because he finds it's a terrible idea for an Easter egg, it's bad taste and don't want to turn KSP into a sticker album for dead astronauts.

Because that's my case.

If anything I find disrespectful the idea of waiting for their deaths to add astronauts to the memorial, if we want to do things in a respectfull way let's add all of their names to the plaque with their respective missions.

It's sad that we have to wait for their deaths to even remember their existence.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Master39
Fixed I can I

[Guest]

Also, I want to add that I failed to find the topic for when Al Worden died last year, not the topic about adding him to the memorial, any topic regarding his death at all.

(He was the pilot of CM Endeavour for Apollo 15)

[Kerminator K-100]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Michael Collins deserves a memorial more than Neil and Buzz for being the one who had to stay up. Quite sad not many people know him.

True but in that case every CSM pilot deserves a memorial. Also all the Apollo 12 - 17 crews aren't remembered at all. Without googling, can tell me who the CSM pilot on Apollo 16 was? I can't. I like the idea of putting in a loading screen tip or maybe a small memorial for every person who was involved in the space program. Because while everyone remembers the crews, no one remembers the engineers or mission control or everyone else who has worked on a space mission.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Kerminator K-100 said:

Because while everyone remembers the crews, no one remembers the engineers or mission control or everyone else who has worked on a space mission

That's not true! Everybody knows John "SCE to AUX" Aaron.

Jocking, I had to Google his name

[Guest]

KSP already memorialises important characters in the history of space exploration: we have Valentina Kerman, Wernher Von Kerman, Margo Kerman and so on and so forth. That’s a cute tradition and I would have no objection to Yuri Kerman, Gus Kerman,  Sergei Kerman, and so on and so forth. However in my view that’s enough. KSP doesn’t need and shouldn’t have memorials or easter eggs beyond that, and the Neil Armstrong memorial was, in my view, a mistake. These things risk turning into fanservice, and I really would not like to see that happen. (As a matter of fact I find the DeGrasse and Sagen [sic] seas on Laythe grating already, and I hope they find better naming conventions for the features on the new planets in KSP2.)