Will devs work with modders to have mods available on launch day?

[TLTay]

I know Nate said that they were going to be putting out guidance on converting KSP mod pack parts to KSP2 as soon as they could. Some game developers have worked closely with mod teams to have mods/mod packs available on launch: XCOM2 "long war2" comes to mind. I'm deeply hopeful that at least a handful of famous modders might be given exception to the "no early access" consensus that appears to have been developed. Mostly, I'm just greedy for as much part variety as I can get my greasy hands on. And also MechJeb. I need MechJeb.

[shdwlrd]

One could hope mods would be available on launch day. More than likely some type of tools and documentation will be available at launch or shortly thereafter.

[Incarnation of Chaos]

1 hour ago, TLTay said:

I know Nate said that they were going to be putting out guidance on converting KSP mod pack parts to KSP2 as soon as they could. Some game developers have worked closely with mod teams to have mods/mod packs available on launch: XCOM2 "long war2" comes to mind. I'm deeply hopeful that at least a handful of famous modders might be given exception to the "no early access" consensus that appears to have been developed. Mostly, I'm just greedy for as much part variety as I can get my greasy hands on. And also MechJeb. I need MechJeb.

If they were the modders would be under NDA, so i doubt a solid answer is even possible. That being said, solid documentation and tools being available day one would be awesome

[Black Dog]

One of the reasons I am looking forward to KSP2 is the reduced mod-clutter.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE mods.  None of my games is complete without at least a few dozen mods crammed into the launcher until it hits 5 digits of loaded assets.

But my love for mods also makes it really hard to actually play the game.  Sure, CKAN helps in organising most of them but I still feel like I am spending more time digging through piles of mods that are depreciated, outdated, not for current version X, dependant on Y or incompatible with Z.

I am looking forward for a fresh, clean game where lots of previous mod-only-features are available in stock and therefore hopefully more stable and always up to date.  This doesn't mean I don't want to see any mods - hello no. But it would be nice to have a stable base with lots of features already existing so mods can concentrate on more important issues like Parts, Explosions and more planets/systems to visit instead of fixing shortcomings in the code.

[DBowman]

I think it would be a huge boon for both players and sales!

[Draco T stand-up guy]

I want to play the game before I start thinking about mods.

4 hours ago, Black Dog said:

One of the reasons I am looking forward to KSP2 is the reduced mod-clutter.

And that too. I'm hoping that the necessary tools are in game so that I don't need mods.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Draco T stand-up guy said:

I want to play the game before I start thinking about mods.

And that too. I'm hoping that the necessary tools are in game so that I don't need mods.

This.

[Guest]

I’m all for mods too, but... what exactly are you hoping for with day-1 mods? KSP2 will be a whole new game, at this point we don’t even know what’s available in stock and what’s not.

[MechBFP]

The whole point of mods is to modify the way the game works because there is something missing that you want, or something changed because you don't like how it works.

How exactly would someone make those determinations without playing the game first?

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

The whole point of mods is to modify the way the game works because there is something missing that you want, or something changed because you don't like how it works.

How exactly would someone make those determinations without playing the game first?

This,

I think that there should be no mods at release, maybe for things that developers said wouldn't be in the game (submarine parts, solar sails, etc.) But we can't really know what people will want mods for until the game comes out

[Motokid600]

It took two days for modders to hack the Diablo Resurrected alpha recently. Within the week of KSP's release expect a full suite of mods to be available.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Motokid600

[pandaman]

6 hours ago, Draco T stand-up guy said:

I want to play the game before I start thinking about mods.

And that too. I'm hoping that the necessary tools are in game so that I don't need mods.

This ^^^

[kerbiloid]

Some users like BDArmory. Some users are pacifists.

Some users like stock. Some users like Tantares.

Some users like KSPI-E. Some users don't.

There are several tens of planet packs, some of them incompatible to each other.

The mods are a need, not a luxury.

[TLTay]

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

The mods are a need, not a luxury.

Some of them really feel like it. My current obsession with following KSP2 development will morph into an obsession with following mod porting once KSP2 is released. I can't imagine playing KSP1 stock anymore. More parts = More better.

[Starhelperdude]

14 hours ago, Draco T stand-up guy said:

I want to play the game before I start thinking about mods.

And that too. I'm hoping that the necessary tools are in game so that I don't need mods.

I'll prob. need mods, at one point or another

[Angelo Kerman]

I'm definitely looking forward to playing KSP 2 stock before modding it. Gotta get experience with how things work first. After that, I can look at what I'd like to see in the game. One thing I'm gonna be happy to do is not port some of my older mods like Pathfinder, DSEV, and MOLE since that functionality appears to be in the stock KSP 2 game.

[Guest]

<snip>

Edited June 20, 2021 by Guest

[kerbiloid]

At the same time, the existing KSP-1 mods set the modding standard very high, so unlikely as much amateurs, as it was in KSP-1, will be envolved.

[Overfloater]

You don't even know what the game will be like, but you already want it modified?

Which aspects of the game you want to modify?

[K^2]

16 hours ago, MechBFP said:

How exactly would someone make those determinations without playing the game first?

We know quite a bit about what's not planned for the game, like more sci-fi tech, military tech, etc., and if the devs were to provide early access to certain modders, the later would have all the knowledge they need.

That said, I don't think it's necessary either. I would honestly like to see modding tools and perhaps even Workshop integration in the kind of state that we can see small mods and KSP1 mod conversions showing up on day one simply due to the ease of use, but I don't think early access for modders is necessary.

 

I'm also not too worried about whether or not Intercept provides the kind of support they were promising early on. Don't get me wrong, it'd be helpful and would make modding cleaner, more stable, and less likely to break with version updates, but it's not critical. Back in early days of KSP, the community was small and Unity wasn't as well established, so a helping hand was needed to get modding going. Now we have a mature modding community that's eager to jump into KSP2, and generic tools for modding Unity games have gotten way better. We have asset exporters, code decompilers and disobfuscators, decent launchers with hooks for mod loaders... A Unity game can be modded even if the devs don't want you to, let alone when they are simply indifferent. So one way or another, there will be KSP2 mods. But how long it takes for quality mods to start showing up and how easy they will be to install and maintain will depend on Intercept's support.

[pandaman]

I'm not really 'into' mods personally, I do run a few in KSP1, but I hope to not feel the need for any in KSP2.

That said I do think mods are a good thing, they can expand the scope beyond what the 'stock' game is intended to be, or even should be (of which BD Armoury is a good example).  I don't expect any mods will be available on release, but no doubt it won't take long for a few to appear.

[mattinoz]

Would love to know if mod (or even stock sub-system) delivery and updating are going to be embedded in the game itself. Or do we still need to do the mod-dance each time a mod or the game updates?

 

[Incarnation of Chaos]

4 hours ago, mattinoz said:

Would love to know if mod (or even stock sub-system) delivery and updating are going to be embedded in the game itself. Or do we still need to do the mod-dance each time a mod or the game updates?

 

Unpopular opinion, but i honestly hope KSP2 stays exactly the same as KSP1 in this regard.

Do you know how many games allow me these days to have a separate install that's effectively version locked? Basically 2, and that's counting KSP.  And whenever i do have a mod in KSP, it's not in some proprietary archive i need special tools to poke around in if there's an issue. The raw files are right there, and easily modified or dissembled. The most problems iv'e had is when games try to "Simplify" modding by "automatically" "Updating" my install, and wrecking it because the update service doesn't know better, heck i even abandoned CKAN because it often got dependencies wrong or incorrect and i had to install them manually anyway. 

Heaven forbid we have to go through workshop for mods, that's honestly something that would seriously make me consider not purchasing the game tbh.

I have nothing against some alternate system being in place (Workshop or a stock CKAN), but if they don't allow sideloading and freely copying installs I'd be very, very disappointed in them.

[Lisias]

On 5/30/2021 at 2:22 PM, TLTay said:

I know Nate said that they were going to be putting out guidance on converting KSP mod pack parts to KSP2 as soon as they could. Some game developers have worked closely with mod teams to have mods/mod packs available on launch: XCOM2 "long war2" comes to mind. I'm deeply hopeful that at least a handful of famous modders might be given exception to the "no early access" consensus that appears to have been developed. Mostly, I'm just greedy for as much part variety as I can get my greasy hands on. And also MechJeb. I need MechJeb.

Frankly, at least until KSP 1.11, the relationship can be resumed to publishing half-baked, poorly tested KSP releases, and the mod-authors scrambling to detect problems and work around them.

What KSP 1.12 will bring to us is still to be seen.

But, usually, most simple add'ons "survive" unscratched, as it's not usual for KSP to change too many things that could severely break too much add'ons (KSP 1.11 was an exception, 1.8.0 and 1.4.0 were another ones).

 

On 5/30/2021 at 4:21 PM, Incarnation of Chaos said:

If they were the modders would be under NDA, so i doubt a solid answer is even possible. That being said, solid documentation and tools being available day one would be awesome

I could not agree more.

 

On 5/31/2021 at 8:03 AM, Draco T stand-up guy said:

And that too. I'm hoping that the necessary tools are in game so that I don't need mods.

This is not going to happen. One size does not fits all, and there're no enough money available for the Dev Team to allow them to satisfy every single current and new user. Every single successful game I'm aware of was heavily modded in a way or another, and the harder the game is to be modded, more chances it has to be forgotten as time goes by.

 

On 6/1/2021 at 12:54 AM, kerbiloid said:

At the same time, the existing KSP-1 mods set the modding standard very high, so unlikely as much amateurs, as it was in KSP-1, will be envolved.

What may be not that good as you think. Most of the most successful add'ons I'm aware were made by non-professionals.

Keep something in mind: professional developers are expensive (at least, the good ones). We do what we can using our free time, but once a too high standard is demanded, you will need us to use working time for it - and so, we will charge for it.

I suggest you to have a look on the Flight Sim scene (FSX, X-Plane, etc), where the add'ons are charged - and some of them are twice the price of the base game. Or perhaps DCS, where the game is free but evey add'on has a hefty price tag on it.

Another one that worths to be mentioned is Microprose's Falcon 4.0, that was extensively modded over time - it was even almost rewritten for modern computers in the 2000's. All that code (released under the MIT, as I was informed) is now on BMS, that is closed sourced and so all that code is essentially locked now (I just can't find that repositories with that code anymore, the surviving one is utterly incomplete).

Without the amateurs, people are going to need deep pockets in order to play a modded game - what's, frankly, kinda of a settle back: if you are going to rely on selling copies of the game to make a living, you will want people to pay money to you, not to third parties. And, since we are talking popularity, KSP has at this moment at least 3 times the concurrent players now than FSX: Steam Edition (not exactly bad, as FS2020 is on the wild), while X-Plane has less than half.

Comparing to X-Plane appears to be more sensible, as X-Plane is also a 10 years old franchise.

Do your math.

 

On 6/1/2021 at 12:39 AM, Brikoleur said:

Yeah KSP2 will be dead in the water if the modder community doesn’t migrate over.

KSP1 would be already sunk without the modder community.

What will happen to KSP2 it's something we will need to wait and see, however...

 

On 6/1/2021 at 3:44 AM, Overfloater said:

You don't even know what the game will be like, but you already want it modified?

Of course!!

 

On 6/1/2021 at 3:44 AM, Overfloater said:

Which aspects of the game you want to modify?

Anything. The fun is on the path, not on the destination!

 

On 6/1/2021 at 4:44 AM, K^2 said:

We know quite a bit about what's not planned for the game, like more sci-fi tech, military tech, etc., and if the devs were to provide early access to certain modders, the later would have all the knowledge they need.

Frankly, I think this will backfire horribly. The P/R damage can be substantial.

 

On 6/1/2021 at 4:44 AM, K^2 said:

I would honestly like to see modding tools and perhaps even Workshop integration in the kind of state that we can see small mods and KSP1 mod conversions showing up on day one simply due to the ease of use,

I think this is the way to go. Way more inclusive, way more "welcoming". And it will save the community from starting up a new era repeating some of the mistakes of the past.

 

On 6/3/2021 at 1:30 AM, mattinoz said:

Would love to know if mod (or even stock sub-system) delivery and updating are going to be embedded in the game itself. Or do we still need to do the mod-dance each time a mod or the game updates?

On an ideal world, the Community should provide such tools. The current mess is due a lack of consensus about how things should be done, a somewhat lack of rigor from the present tools on serving the few things there're a consensus about how it should be done and, most of all, the existent utter barrier on allowing a third player on this field, what would provide the needed incentive to improve the current status quo.

 

On 6/3/2021 at 6:29 AM, Incarnation of Chaos said:

Heaven forbid we have to go through workshop for mods, that's honestly something that would seriously make me consider not purchasing the game tbh.

Not to mention buying a fight with the Steam competition. You don't want to rely solely on Steam to provide features to your game, there're GoG et all around, and you need to have them around in order to induce Steam to behave nicely with you.

Never put all your eggs on the same basket. Most of us have only two, we need to properly care for them.

 

On 6/3/2021 at 6:29 AM, Incarnation of Chaos said:

I have nothing against some alternate system being in place (Workshop or a stock CKAN), but if they don't allow sideloading and freely copying installs I'd be very, very disappointed in them.

Without side-loading, KSP1 would be seriously injured by now - perhaps dead. Not everybody likes CKAN, not everybody likes Curseforge. I would had quit this already if I was to be forced into using one of them.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Lisias
Of cuorse, moar tyops!

[K^2]

Oh, yeah, you don't want Workshop to become the only way to load mods, but I still think Workshop support would be a great addition to whatever system they have in mind. Even if it limits the kinds of mods you can share through Workshop for security reasons.