Jump to content

Off-planet manufacturing (split from SpaceX)


Elthy

Recommended Posts

38 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

It seems that zero-gee manufacturing is closer than we think.... https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2021/09/varda-space-manufacturing/. The plan is to use ISS-proven modules supported by a RocketLab  Photon bus

This kind of falls into the 'cool but impractical' category. 

Bulk fiber optic cable, 1,000 foot spool weighs 35 pounds and costs ~ $835.  

https://www.cablewholesale.com/products/fiber-optic/bulk-fiber/product-11f3-312nh.php

The 3 modules (Command, manufacturer and reentry) combined weigh just 120 kg (~265 lbs).  Let's graciously say that the reentry module can descend approximately 1/2 the total weight as finished product - you are looking at only 4 thousand - foot spools per descent. 

Total launch costs would have to be less than $2,000 per mission to have any chance of selling the product at any profit. 

So we are, again, looking at an experiment or proof of concept rather than any possible, profitable production technology. 

Edited by JoeSchmuckatelli
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

This kind of falls into the 'cool but impractical' category. 

Bulk fiber optic cable, 1,000 foot spool weighs 35 pounds and costs ~ $835.  

https://www.cablewholesale.com/products/fiber-optic/bulk-fiber/product-11f3-312nh.php

The 3 modules (Command, manufacturer and reentry) combined weigh just 120 kg (~265 lbs).  Let's graciously say that the reentry module can descend approximately 1/2 the total weight as finished product - you are looking at only 4 thousand - foot spools per descent. 

Total launch costs would have to be less than $2,000 per mission to have any chance of selling the product at any profit. 

So we are, again, looking at an experiment or proof of concept rather than any possible, profitable production technology. 

The concept was proven aboard ISS. This is more advancing the concept than commercial production, but this isn't your garden-variety bulk fiber either. This is high performance stuff, worth a premium price. 

Oh, and that bulk fiber data is for install ready jacketed fiber. What percentage of mass is the sheathing? They'll only be making pure fiber up there, sheathing will be added on the ground (if needed, depending on application, I suppose). At least that would be the logical assumption. I can't seem to Google up the mass/meter of just the fiber, but I'm guessing much less than a tenth of the mass of a cable, never mind the mass of the much-larger commercial spool. That changes your numbers considerably.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

changes your numbers considerably

Yeah - if what we are talking about is just fiber and not sheathing - that's quite a bit more. 

(however, still not significant) 

So presuming the quality is sufficient to make it desirable - we are still talking about short runs - single center uses, or possibly adjacent center links - but not city to city. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Silkworms.

The Chinese station should herd them and weave the inflatable silk modules, chutes, and maybe even a space lift.

Kublai does not approve of the export of silk worms 

Penalties are stiff 

Edited by JoeSchmuckatelli
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/26/2021 at 6:13 PM, StrandedonEarth said:

The concept was proven aboard ISS. This is more advancing the concept than commercial production, but this isn't your garden-variety bulk fiber either. This is high performance stuff, worth a premium price. 

Oh, and that bulk fiber data is for install ready jacketed fiber. What percentage of mass is the sheathing? They'll only be making pure fiber up there, sheathing will be added on the ground (if needed, depending on application, I suppose). At least that would be the logical assumption. I can't seem to Google up the mass/meter of just the fiber, but I'm guessing much less than a tenth of the mass of a cable, never mind the mass of the much-larger commercial spool. That changes your numbers considerably.

Yes you only make the core fiber who is hair thin at most, they are designed so light don't bounce but can only travel down the center.  These are mostly for long underwater cables as you will not need to amplify the signal underway who adds lots of complexity and smear out the signal who reduces bandwidth. Underwater cables also has lots of coating, better to think of it as armor. This is not for the cable into your house any more than an car turbo is the same an an rocket turbopump for one you tend to mix multiple frequencies of lasers into the same fiber and split at the end. 

Crystals might be another thing relevant to grow in space, here the IIS is to bumpy so you would want something free floating. 

As space travel become cheaper and you can lift heavier experiments it will be an surge of trying out new stuff, just eliminating gravity from experiments make them much more like spherical cows 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A killer app for off-planet manufacturing would be the production of microchips and other tech components without the use of precious metals. We are running low on our reserves of palladium and nickel and copper and so many other metals. If someone comes up with a way to grow silicon crystals in zero-gravity that will replace those tech components without the use of rare metals, THAT will be huge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

A killer app for off-planet manufacturing would be the production of microchips and other tech components without the use of precious metals. We are running low on our reserves of palladium and nickel and copper and so many other metals. If someone comes up with a way to grow silicon crystals in zero-gravity that will replace those tech components without the use of rare metals, THAT will be huge.

How are those metalls used in the producion of perfect silicon crystals? I would assume the perfect crystal has no other elements in it...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

A killer app for off-planet manufacturing would be the production of microchips and other tech components without the use of precious metals. We are running low on our reserves of palladium and nickel and copper and so many other metals. If someone comes up with a way to grow silicon crystals in zero-gravity that will replace those tech components without the use of rare metals, THAT will be huge.

There's plenty on the bottom of the ocean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

There's plenty on the bottom of the ocean.

Yes, but it's generally hard to get at.

1 hour ago, Elthy said:

How are those metalls used in the producion of perfect silicon crystals? I would assume the perfect crystal has no other elements in it...

Oh, I have no idea. I just imagine that some particularly clever inorganic chemist might be able to come up with a crystalline microchip design which would be able to substitute for precious-metal-based microchips.

For example, imagine some microchip that needs platinum or gold in order to work. Pure silicon is a semiconductor, while silicon dioxide is an insulator. It's possible that you could design some sort of silicon+silicon dioxide crystal structure which would provide the same functionality as the platinum or gold microchip, but without needing the platinum or gold. It's also possible that such a structure would require microgravity in order to grow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

There's plenty on the bottom of the ocean.

Dissolved in the ocean water as ions.
And the experiments on their extraction are being runned by different maintainers, just currently there still is a more available option in ground.

***

Even with the overpure silicon the precious metals and lantanoids are still required, because the silicon is a good semi-conductor, but a semi-good conductor.

Edited by kerbiloid
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/28/2021 at 1:41 AM, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Easier than Asteroid Mining! 

Probably not. Nearby celestial bodies are known much better than ocean floors and all operations on deep oceans are extremely expensive and more dangerous for humans than space. Cost of space operations decrease all the time but there is no significant development in deep ocean operations (as far as I know). In addition to that there are environmental issues etc. against large scale industrial operations in oceans. I am quite sure that moving mining and refining, later also many assembling tasks, to space will be next generation's solution to environment problems on Earth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 10 months later...
On 9/27/2021 at 11:25 PM, sevenperforce said:

Yes, but it's generally hard to get at.

Oh, I have no idea. I just imagine that some particularly clever inorganic chemist might be able to come up with a crystalline microchip design which would be able to substitute for precious-metal-based microchips.

For example, imagine some microchip that needs platinum or gold in order to work. Pure silicon is a semiconductor, while silicon dioxide is an insulator. It's possible that you could design some sort of silicon+silicon dioxide crystal structure which would provide the same functionality as the platinum or gold microchip, but without needing the platinum or gold. It's also possible that such a structure would require microgravity in order to grow.

Then you make silicon crystals for chips you grow an 20-30 cm diameter crystal 1-2 meter long this is pure silicon, you then cut it into wafers. Now you put down masks on this and add impurities at place to make transistors, diodes and resistors, remove mask add an new one, add insulator then deposit metal for pathways, repeat. 
At least how it was done 30 years ago. You don't use much metal. 

I don't see much point of producing these crystals or chips in space as its huge structures, more exotic crystals for other stuff like lasers perhaps 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
  • 10 months later...
On 9/26/2021 at 7:47 AM, StrandedonEarth said:

It seems that zero-gee manufacturing is closer than we think.... https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2021/09/varda-space-manufacturing/. The plan is to use ISS-proven modules supported by a RocketLab  Photon bus. While the specific product for the mission is not confirmed, the ISS has tested optical fiber production with twenty times the performance of groundside-produced fibers. 

This article seemed to have sneaked by, more about the fiber factory NASA-Supported Optical Fiber Manufacturing Arrives at Space Station | NASA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...

Hydrogen can be used instead of Carbon as a reduction agent in steel making.  It looks possible for Earth to switch over entirely to this technique in <100 years, if green policies are a priority.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/07/green-steel-emissions-net-zero/

 

I predict that magenetite Fe3O4 is abundant on the surface of the moon and mars.  You need a big harrow or rake with powerful magnets on it, tow it behind the rover, collect kilos of magnetic black sand.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, farmerben said:

Hydrogen can be used instead of Carbon as a reduction agent in steel making.  It looks possible for Earth to switch over entirely to this technique in <100 years, if green policies are a priority.

The difference between iron and steel is the carbon content, so carbon is still needed for steelmaking. Of course, that's bound carbon, so it still shouldn't result in carbon emissions if done right...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, StrandedonEarth said:

The difference between iron and steel is the carbon content, so carbon is still needed for steelmaking. Of course, that's bound carbon, so it still shouldn't result in carbon emissions if done right...

Yeah, carbon is the main difference between the fragile Titanic and much stronger modern vessels.  Aside from welding replacing rivets of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...