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Did KSP 2 kill KSP?  

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  1. 1. Did KSP 2 kill KSP?

    • KSP will live on through KSP 2
      22
    • KSP will live on regardless KSP 2
      21
    • KSP reached its destination
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Sometimes i wonder if KSP 2 was never planned, if KSP would continue to develop through engine upgrades and DLC's.

Now with KSP 2, what if this game fails or even if it has considerable success, will it ever become the KSP we enjoy and spend endless hours?

Edited by Serenity
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Just now, theleg said:

I'm optimistic

I am optimistic as well, however I doubt that all play-styles available in KSP will be contained in the KSP2 launch out of the box. There will be a period of "adjustment".

I want to discover what KSP2 has to offer, but I also want to be able to do the things I do now in KSP as well.  

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20 minutes ago, Serenity said:

Sometimes i wonder if KSP 2 was never planned, if KSP would continue to develop through engine upgrades and DLC's.

No, that isn't a long-term sustainable business model.

Edited by MechBFP
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KSP2 didn't kill KSP. Ksp will continue on, in the same way that you still have Age 2 players or RTW players.

Also, KSP has a lot of "behind the scenes" limitations. To make a more polished and well planned sequel can only mean better stuff for all KSP players. I believe we can all expect a greater, prettier, more optimized version of the game.

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35 minutes ago, Serenity said:

Sometimes i wonder if KSP 2 was never planned, if KSP would continue to develop through engine upgrades and DLC's.

I have some games that I actively avoid, a list of games that I just wish some day an actual experienced studio decide to copy from to make a "spiritual successor" in spite of the original creator, because while I love the idea I think the author is not up to the task.

Right now a couple of such games, to make a quick example, are Aurora 4x and Dwarf Fortress, beautiful ideas, deep gameplay mechanics like few in the whole industry, but made by people who not only are oblivious about the art of UI design but they actively damage the games on this aspect whenever possible (in the hands of some real UI designers and artists those two games could rival Stellaris and ONI/Rimworld but right know they're relegated to a niche within the niche).

 

Well, when in 2017 Valve hired a bunch of ex-Squad Devs I surprised myself thinking "what if they make a game like Kerbal but professionally made?" and it's there when I realized that the honeymoon with KSP ended and that, yes, it was the best game of its genre, but only because it was also the only one in it. 

I was beyond happy when I first saw the sequel, not only was exactly what I hoped, but even the same IP.

 If anything goes right KSP2 will be the production model coming out of a decade of prototyping, data gathering and messing with KSP1, and as for now everything points towards that being the direction they've taken with it.

Edited by Master39
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Assuming KSP 2 is as great as I hope it is, the lack of massive loading times, and improvements to graphics and performance will kill KSP for me. I stopped playing KSP 1 because I couldn't bear the loading times anymore, but it will always have a retro charm to it.

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Just now, Bej Kerman said:

Assuming KSP 2 is as great as I hope it is, the lack of massive loading times, and improvements to graphics and performance will kill KSP for me. I stopped playing KSP 1 because I couldn't bear the loading times anymore, but it will always have a retro charm to it.

I'm sure there'll be mods to downgrade graphics. And hey, if massive loading times are your thing, just do the opposite of what you do to get better loading times: downgrade your PC's specs.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

No, that isn't a long-term sustainable business model.

Yeah i agree on that, it will be insanely hard to be sustainable, but still i think it can somehow work as a best case scenario for the consumer and the company.

29 minutes ago, Master39 said:

I have some games that I actively avoid, a list of games that I just wish some day an actual experienced studio decide to copy from to make a "spiritual successor" in spite of the original creator, because while I love the idea I think the author is not up to the task.

That's extremely infuriately wrong.

Huge publishers like Electronic Arts buy out studios, and like vultures they tear them up, they disassemble any original mechanics, they basically play Frankenstein and

in the end they create multiple average games with no passion and nothing to represent that magic that it makes you want these games.

You love someone's original idea and creation but you want someone else to steal it and make it....''better''

And that someone else is a titan company, being super greedy and not really caring about what you hoping for.

How often does that end well in the gaming industry?

Edited by Serenity
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3 minutes ago, Serenity said:

Yeah i agree on that, it will be insanely hard to be sustainable, but still i think it can somehow work as a best case scenario for the consumer and the company.

You are going to be have to clarify what makes you think it can somehow work.

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1 hour ago, Serenity said:

Sometimes i wonder if KSP 2 was never planned, if KSP would continue to develop through engine upgrades and DLC's.

Now with KSP 2, what if this game fails or even if it has considerable success, will it ever become the KSP we enjoy and spend endless hours?

I think Squad was adding all they can and they started to realize how much KSP's core limits any new features. So I think they decided that a sequel should start being made with a better set of base code and everything. So I think that 1.12 for a long time was decided to be the last update, I think when 1.8 came out it was a sign that they where finishing up everything by polishing up game features and revamping textures. So I think for a long time KSP's final update was planned, and then a sequel started to be made in the works which would make some of the more demanding features possible

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

You are going to be have to clarify what makes you think it can somehow work.

There are several games that focus on releasing DLC's and upgrading their game engines, i am sure its not the best profit you can make and as i said

its a dream case scenario where you please both the customer and the company which is a rare occasion i know.Its more like of something i wish it could work

but as i said, yeah i agree its an extremely difficult thing to do.

8 minutes ago, The Doodling Astronaut said:

I think Squad was adding all they can and they started to realize how much KSP's core limits any new features. So I think they decided that a sequel should start being made with a better set of base code and everything. So I think that 1.12 for a long time was decided to be the last update, I think when 1.8 came out it was a sign that they where finishing up everything by polishing up game features and revamping textures. So I think for a long time KSP's final update was planned, and then a sequel started to be made in the works which would make some of the more demanding features possible

I doubt any of that is true, did you not see how troubled was the start of KSP 2 development?

Do you think it was all smooth like you describe it and everything went according the plan?

To me it looked as it was pretty messy and all sides were pressured and thankfully somehow it all sorted out, and that's why we see this alignment taking place.

Of course its good for KSP 2 and the many many of the people working in these two games.

But i have no clue where you sourcing that whole dreamy idea of everything was planned and laid out perfectly.

Edited by Serenity
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Just now, Serenity said:

I doubt any of that is true, did you see how troubled was the start of KSP 2 development?

Do you think it was all smooth like you describe it and everything went along the plan.

To me it looked as it was pretty messy and all sides were pressured and thankfully somehow it all sorted out, and that's why we see this alignment taking place.

Of course its good for KSP 2 and the many many of the people working in these two games.

But i have no clue where you sourcing that whole dreamy idea of we know what we doing, everything is going according to plan.

I don't see how KSP 2's struggles are changing what I said at all. From what we heard, KSP 1's development was going to continue after KSP 2's release. My understanding is that KSP 2 was going to release in early 2020 and that development of KSP 1 was going to continue some time after that. Now the Kovid-19 pandemic probably delayed updates for KSP 1, but I think that was the plan the whole time to finish KSP 1 near-ish after KSP 2 came out.

We still don't know much about KSP 2's real development delays. We know that Star Theory to Intercept delayed it somewhat, and that Kovid took it's hit on development. But I think that KSP 2 just was pushed back far enough that the overlap was no longer possible.

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7 minutes ago, Serenity said:

That's extremely infuriately wrong.

Huge publishers like Electronic Arts buy out studios, and like vultures they tear them up, they disassemble any original mechanics, they basically play Frankenstein and

in the end they create multiple average games with no passion and nothing to represent that magic that it makes you want these games.

Your statement is a contradiction, you love someones original idea and creation but you want someone else to steal it and make it....''better''

And that someone else is a super company, being super greedy and not really caring about what you hoping for.

How often does that happen in the gaming industry?

I'll clarify with two practical examples.

Where are now days Roller Coaster Tycoon or Sim City?

Nobody know or cares in which hole those IPs are rotting because Planet Coaster and Cities Skylines took the mantle of those genres.

Right after Take Two acquisition that's exactly the best thing I dared to hope for KSP's genre (not the IP, the genre itself), the other, more realistic, option being KSP slowly dying in a few years without anything simar ever planned after (Transporter Tycoon Deluxe is still the only good game of that genre, and its open source remake, OTTD, just released on Steam unrivaled, a '94 game with no better contender for more than 25 years).

Only in hindsight we know know of KSP2 and can be happy that thats something actually happening, but 2017 Squad or pre Private Division Take Two weren't exactly something to be optimistic about.

And still that's the best thing that could ever happen to Aurora 4x or Dwarf Fortress.

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Given the nature of KSP 2 - being the same game but better graphics, new features  and some of the gameplay imporeved/enhanced it'd be naive to expect the two existing side by side.

KSP1 lives only, only on the sale to new customers. And DLC, but based on the forum here it seems that a good chunk of the people here hate the idea of playing for DLC. So, with extremely little funding, where is KSP1 supposed to go.

Do you abandon your old dog on the side of the road, never to look back and thinking three years later "I guess he passed now?"
Or when the time comes, do you give him a glorious week of chocolate pudding and other forbidden treats before the final trip to the vet?

I'm glad there's a glorious "farewell" and not a quiet fading into the night time, because the developers deserve a proper "farewell and thanks for all the fish"

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, The Doodling Astronaut said:

But I think that KSP 2 just was pushed back far enough that the overlap was no longer possible.

That's a very good point, like it was planned to overlap but due to the various troubles and delays brought us here, to a gap.

15 minutes ago, Master39 said:

I'll clarify with two practical examples.

Where are now days Roller Coaster Tycoon or Sim City?

Nobody know or cares in which hole those IPs are rotting because Planet Coaster and Cities Skylines took the mantle of those genres.

Wait what? How does that clarify your point?

All of these games are made and maintained by huge publishers, they re not ''indie'', i am confused.

You say only in hindsight but i don't see anyone being cautious about KSP 2,  its the same pattern, the need for something to be good fogs our ability to criticize and be cautious.

So many new games are defended because we need them to be good but which of them are truly are.

Edited by Serenity
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1 hour ago, Serenity said:

Sometimes i wonder if KSP 2 was never planned, if KSP would continue to develop through engine upgrades and DLC's.

Now with KSP 2, what if this game fails or even if it has considerable success, will it ever become the KSP we enjoy and spend endless hours?

Would you care to explain what parts of KSP would disappear for you? I'll quote a few others in this thread to explain my point further.

1 hour ago, Caerfinon said:

...I doubt that all play-styles available in KSP will be contained in the KSP2 launch out of the box...

 ...I also want to be able to do the things I do now in KSP as well.  

Playstyles could be unsustainable in KSP 2. What playstyles are these, and why do you think they would be lost?

58 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Assuming KSP 2 is as great as I hope it is, the lack of massive loading times, and improvements to graphics and performance will kill KSP for me. I stopped playing KSP 1 because I couldn't bear the loading times anymore, but it will always have a retro charm to it.

Some might say that the visual charm of the original is lost. I've replied by saying that mods would solve this, essentially doing the opposite of the Astronomer's Visual Pack: an "Astronomer's Nostaglia Pack." (If someone decides to make a mod that does this, could this be the name please? No credit required lmao)

Just to contribute one of my own potential gripes to the thread, certain parts could be missing from KSP 1. With the announcement of procedural wings, which were explicitly said to make the old wings obselete, the old wings are... well, obeselete, and therefore wouldn't be added into the game. Let's also consider the massive variety of fuel tanks. Could it be possible that some of these would be made procedural as well?

For some people, they might wish to re-create something they built in KSP 1, down to the millimeter. Problem is that certain parts no longer exist, so it won't be faithful. Not only is KSP 1 killed in this respect, but KSP 1's own ships and building style are killed too, which was a key part of KSP 1. Faithfulness to the original is especially important in this respect.

8 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

That's not entirely what retro charm is about.

So, what, you want Intercept to include a "retro mode" or something? That feels redundant. All you'd need to do is install the mod, and every time you run the game will include that mod. Forget about it from then on.

Edited by intelliCom
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5 minutes ago, intelliCom said:

Some might say that the visual charm of the original is lost. I've replied by saying that mods would solve this, essentially doing the opposite of the Astronomer's Visual Pack: an "Astronomer's Nostaglia Pack." (If someone decides to make a mod that does this, could this be the name please? No credit required lmao)

It's like Minecraft - you can use an Alpha textures resource pack and turn the smooth lighting off, and you've got some of the charm, but there's a certain feeling the true old versions had that I can't properly put into words.

6 minutes ago, intelliCom said:

For some people, they might wish to re-create something they built in KSP 1, down to the millimeter. Problem is that certain parts no longer exist, so it won't be faithful. Not only is KSP 1 killed in this respect, but KSP 1's own ships and building style are killed too, which was a key part of KSP 1. Faithfulness to the original is especially important in this respect.

Well it shouldn't be hard to use the next closest part to what you want, and KSP's building style won't be gone for the most part; you just won't have to wrestle with the 2, 3 wing types to get the wing you want. Cylindrical tanks are easy and don't need proc gen, but wings are a whole different beast. The KSP 1 system is just terrible with wings and I'm wholly glad to see it being banished in this sector.

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1 hour ago, Master39 said:

Well, when in 2017 Valve hired a bunch of ex-Squad Devs I surprised myself thinking "what if they make a game like Kerbal but professionally made?" and it's there when I realized that the honeymoon with KSP ended and that, yes, it was the best game of its genre, but only because it was also the only one in it. 

This is what they tried to make, at 17:08:

It looks amazing even in its unfinished state.

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29 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

It's like Minecraft - you can use an Alpha textures resource pack and turn the smooth lighting off, and you've got some of the charm, but there's a certain feeling the true old versions had that I can't properly put into words.

Because Alpha textures and Smooth lighting doesn't do the trick, you'd also need brightness on moody, the chunk distance to be the same, and a mod should be able to change everything else that vanilla can't, such as billboarded item sprites, old guis (even technical stuff like a version number in the corner), a mod could even incorporate old terrain generation. Bada-bing, bada-boom, you have Minecraft in the most Alpha feel you can get it. If it still doesn't feel right because of the new features, then omit just the right ones to get a desirable result. You continue to omit until you're left with nothing. If you're left with nothing, then there's absolutely no reason for it to "not feel right", but, since you reached this point, you should realise that you should've just played real Alpha Minecraft to begin with, straight from the Minecraft launcher.

Is my point clear now? With the right programmers, a mod could do anything to KSP. The game is still in Unity just like KSP 1. I promise you that a mod could get the retro charm you're seeking. Down to the GUIs and fonts.

29 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Cylindrical tanks are easy and don't need proc gen, but wings are a whole different beast.

Sorry, I just randomly said procedural generation without thinking about it. Fuel tanks are literally just a bunch of volume calculations for diameter and height really.

But, considering this, I guess we follow different ideas of a "retro charm". Yes, the old wings were clunky and tricky to deal with, but I don't think it's worth them completely being gone forever. I've gotten very trained in building with that system, so I feel like the procedural wings are going to be limiting. Just how many properties could you alter?

Let's think: The dimensions of the wing, the curvature of a particular edge maybe? I don't feel like they could look all that different. All I'm looking for, at the very least, is the option to connect these procedural wings end-to-end like you would with KSP 1. From when these wings were showcased, they looked an awful lot like the delta-deluxe winglet and the aeroplane tail fin. Neither of those parts could connect their outer edge with any of the other wing types, and I fear the procedural wings wouldn't either.

Edited by intelliCom
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42 minutes ago, intelliCom said:

What playstyles are these, and why do you think they would be lost?

Custom contract packs for aircraft flights for one. not sure how well these might translate to a "stock" mission system, or even if such a thing will be available at launch.

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44 minutes ago, Serenity said:

All of these games are made and maintained by huge publishers, they re not ''indie'', i am confused.

Neither Frontier not Paradox are considerable even just "medium" publisher, they're nowhere near being 'huge".

And, in this context, the term "indie" is irrelevant in all of its possible meanings.

If your narrative is the usual boring "indie güd, anything else bad" please say it so now so I can cut this discussion immediately.

 

49 minutes ago, Serenity said:

You say only in hindsight but i don't see anyone being cautious about KSP 2,  its the same pattern, the need for something to be good fogs our ability to criticize and be cautious.

I'm cautious and I've stated several times that I'm going to test it well withing the refund window before I decide if I want to keep or refund it.

But don't expect me to glorify KSP1 and turn blind towards the problems it has just because it's an indie game or to ignore the benefits of having a real budget and specialists on team to develop something properly just because we have to say that every game that has a publisher automatically sucks.

34 minutes ago, intelliCom said:

For some people, they might wish to re-create something they built in KSP 1, down to the millimeter. Problem is that certain parts no longer exist, so it won't be faithful. Not only is KSP 1 killed in this respect, but KSP 1's own ships and building style are killed too, which was a key part of KSP 1. Faithfulness to the original is especially important in this respect.

Ksp is not going to disappear from your hard drive magically once KSP2 releases and it's far from being a perfect game, I won't go into the subjective argument about how a bunch of people making assets with different colour palettes and without any kind of art direction became "the Kerbal way" over the years (for me Restock is stock), but the sorry state of Science and Career and the complete lack of a general vision when balancing the game (they basically put every variable on a slider in the settings and set it at 50% by default) is some objective bad game design that needs to be completely eradicated and replaced with something properly made.

If you want KSP 1 with all its quirks and features it will be still there, for anyone else wanting a game in the same genre but properly made by experienced people with the last decade of tech improvements KSP2 will be there.

 

59 minutes ago, Serenity said:

So many new games are defended because we need them to be good but which of them are truly are.

And I used the Steam refund feature half a dozen times since the beginning of the year, but there's no need of baselessly predict the apocalypse just because someone has to be the one criticizing.

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1 minute ago, Caerfinon said:

Custom contract packs for aircraft flights for one. not sure how well these might translate to a "stock" mission system, or even if such a thing will be available at launch.

Custom contract packs are basically mods, right? I guess what you're trying to say is that contracts won't be a thing in KSP 2?

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