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Did KSP 2 kill KSP?


Serenity
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Did KSP 2 kill KSP?  

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  1. 1. Did KSP 2 kill KSP?

    • KSP will live on through KSP 2
      23
    • KSP will live on regardless KSP 2
      23
    • KSP reached its destination
      17


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31 minutes ago, Thundy said:

This is what they tried to make, at 17:08:

It looks amazing even in its unfinished state.

I bought "Half-life: Alyx the final hours" the source for most of that video the day it came out and consumed it immediately.

I know about that prototype.

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2 minutes ago, intelliCom said:

I guess what you're trying to say is

I'm saying that day one, KSP2 may not have available all of the play options that KSP has. It may have new and different ones but the mod catch-up time is an unknown factor that may prevent certain types of play.   

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3 minutes ago, intelliCom said:

Custom contract packs are basically mods, right? I guess what you're trying to say is that contracts won't be a thing in KSP 2?

It's possible, features we already know of KSP2 makes contracts the way they're implemented in KSP1 mostly obsolete and with funds presence being at doubt right know contracts are doubly so.

They technically said that "missions will still be a thing" but they curiously used the word "missions" instead of "contracts" probably hinting at some differences.

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21 minutes ago, intelliCom said:
49 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

It's like Minecraft - you can use an Alpha textures resource pack and turn the smooth lighting off, and you've got some of the charm, but there's a certain feeling the true old versions had that I can't properly put into words.

Because Alpha textures and Smooth lighting doesn't do the trick, you'd also need brightness on moody, the chunk distance to be the same, and a mod should be able to change everything else that vanilla can't, such as billboarded item sprites, old guis (even technical stuff like a version number in the corner), a mod could even incorporate old terrain generation. Bada-bing, bada-boom, you have Minecraft in the most Alpha feel you can get it. If it still doesn't feel right because of the new features, then omit just the right ones to get a desirable result. You continue to omit until you're left with nothing. If you're left with nothing, then there's absolutely no reason for it to "not feel right", but, since you reached this point, you should realise that you should've just played real Alpha Minecraft to begin with, straight from the Minecraft launcher.

Is my point clear now? With the right programmers, a mod could do anything to KSP. The game is still in Unity just like KSP 1. I promise you that a mod could get the retro charm you're seeking. Down to the GUIs and fonts.

You just don't get it.

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Just now, Bej Kerman said:

You just don't get it.

Actually, I believe I do.

In my case, let's consider Doom. I grew up with 1993 Doom, and I love playing Crispy Doom. It looks just like the original, has the framerate of the original, physics (mostly) like the original. But it is, at it's core, a modification of the original.

The main modifications? It allows the option of increased framerate and resolution. Without these modifications turned on, it feels just fine. The program may not be authentic, but my experience is. I will say this again: The retro feel is not impossible to capture with modding. You basically need the same thing that Crispy Doom is doing, but in reverse. The option to make everything look and feel how it did. All modders need to do is compare their experience directly between KSP 1 and the (Modded) KSP 2 to refine things, and they'll nail the feeling.

How would that not work?

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KSP1 has run its course. With the technical debt and inability to cleanly add on new features and optimizations. It makes sense to create a sequel to start from scratch to add wanted features, updates and optimizations.

I don't believe the Kerbal charm will be lost with updated assets and expanded internal systems. I believe KSP2 will be breathing new life into KSP by expanding what is available to do in the stock game but leaving the core KSP experience intact.

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8 hours ago, Serenity said:

Sometimes i wonder if KSP 2 was never planned, if KSP would continue to develop through engine upgrades and DLC's.

Nope.  KSP would have "died", all right -- there'd be no more KSP.

This way, there's still KSP.

All this kvetching and moaning, you'd think people hadn't gotten ten years of free updates.

Edited by Corona688
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

Nope.  KSP would have "died", all right -- there'd be no more KSP.

This way, there's still KSP.

All this kvetching and moaning, you'd think people hadn't gotten ten years of free updates.

I made this post because i am concerned KSP 2 will stray away from the recipe that makes Kerbal great.

There are many sequels that have a negative impact on their originals and diminish their greatness.

I didn't make this post to question if we had enough updates or not, that's at least for me is out of debate, we got so much more than i ever expected and i will be always grateful and fulfilled in that area.

Edited by Serenity
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2 minutes ago, Serenity said:

I made this post because i am concerned KSP 2 will stray away from the recipe that makes Kerbal great.

If you're concerned Kerbal Space Program 1 will cease to exist, I note several things in your favour:  It is widely crossplatform and lacks copyprotection.

If you were actually hoping for ten more years of free updates, though, you are plumb out of luck.

Edited by Corona688
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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

If you're concerned Kerbal Space Program 1 will cease to exist, I note several things in your favour:  It is widely crossplatform and lacks copyprotection.

If you were actually hoping for ten more years of free updates, though, you are plumb out of luck.

Sorry if i am being a bit rude but you make me question if you read what you quote.

Edited by Serenity
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4 minutes ago, Serenity said:

No offence but you make me question if you read what you quote.

I almost question if you read your own topic.

The answer to your original question remains an easy "no".  The game as was, just wasn't sustainable;  the writing was on the wall.  The only question was whether they'd 2.0 it, or scrap it entirely.

I think the "KSP feel" is as much it's users as the game itself.  Think about it - how much of the game is stuff we don't use?  The missions, the careers.  So as long as we're around, we'll probably find a way to make KSP2 home.

Edited by Corona688
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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

I almost question if you read your own topic.

The answer to your original question remains an easy "no".  The game as was, just wasn't sustainable;  the writing was on the wall.  The only question was whether they'd 2.0 it, or scrap it entirely.

I never questioned or polled if anyone would prefer an endless development of Kerbal 1.0 but i can see the why it would be interpreted like that.

I think its because i wasn't very clear and also i feel its really hard to fight through all the emotions and evade all the hope and hype for Kerbal 2 to actually understand my concerns.

Edited by Serenity
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Several posts have been removed, owing to:

  • snide put-downs
  • personal remarks
  • arguing about arguing

There's nothing wrong with lively debate of opposing opinions.  But let's please remember to be civil, and leave the insults, put-downs, and condescension at the door.

Thank you for your understanding.

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I love/loved KSP from the beginning and it is still the best game ever for me, but it always felt like it was still in development. I don't think we will be losing anything with KSP2, I think it's just the natural progression of a timeless idea toward its completion. KSP2 will be KSP, but complete and polished.

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Right now, I have every reason to be optimistic. The original game will still be here, but we'll get so much more content. Kerbal was built 10 years ago, and given how much tech has changed since then, getting to see what a passionate development studio  can build with today's technology will be incredible. At the end of the day, the original game is amazing, but aging, and I can't wait to see a familiar game in a fresh and new light with better graphics and code.

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I think that, short of utterly failing to complete the game, there's nothing the KSP2 devs can do to mess this up. They have a solid concept and the talent and drive to pull it off. The only thing which would damage KSP2 in my eyes would be a lack of complexity. i.e., a minimal resource or colony system.

IMO, KSP1 will survive, but as a curiosity, not the main attraction. KSP2 looks like an equal of Stellaris in terms of UI and graphics, and storytelling potential as well. So KSP2 vs. KSP1 becomes like Stellaris vs. Risk. KSP2 looks set to be so much "deeper". 

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8 hours ago, Serenity said:

I made this post because i am concerned KSP 2 will stray away from the recipe that makes Kerbal great.

Be specific, what's that recipe?

What elements of KSP2 are straying away for you?

I don't think there's much space for debating if we keep things this vague.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Master39 said:

Be specific, what's that recipe?

What elements of KSP2 are straying away for you?

I don't think there's much space for debating if we keep things this vague.

I am going to give it a try, although its rather an impossible task since its something objective and we both have already settled in directly opposite views, so its more like an argument rather than a debate.

But for the sake of trying  here is one of my older posts that i feel managed to capture most of my concerns:

Ideally in a game like Kerbal you want to create the best tools for the players to express their creativity and their ability to overcome obstacles, always maintaining ease of access.

This requires a long period of development time and of course a lot of money.

Neither of those are provided nowadays, there is an immense pressure to release early and usually get underpaid.

Realistically and i can't stress this enough, i hope i am wrong, there isn't gonna be enough time to create what is needed to support multiple playstyles.

So you probably gonna focus in a certain playstyle to be the best at it.

Filling the game with modular designs.

These wings for example, you are encouraged to miss the opportunity to learn and experiment how flight control surfaces work.

Of course it's an amazing way to optimize and solve so many problems current Kerbal has,

but even if we get some limited customizing options the experience will be subpar.

Lets go even further, exploring and colonizing multiple planets, the rockets, the stations, the bases.

Pre-made modular designs, with a few options to personalize them and some few variations of a ''pseudo'' evolve roadmap that will give you 

a sense that things progress, magically appearing and changing, through invisible deliveries of upgrades inside our favorite containers.

Variations that will consume most of the dev time so there will be not enough time to create a more personalized open-world experience in crafting.

So eventually the game will become more of a management style instead of actually creating your own space fairing civilization.

Again this is only a concern, i do not know what will happen, and even it happens it doesn't mean it will be a bad game, just a different game.

Edited by Serenity
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It seems to me the concern is that KSP will lose its soul. Based on all that I have read about the developers and what they have posted here, I think it is in good hands.  But it is an understandable worry. 

I am currently playing Subnautica: Below Zero. I LOVED the original. I knew I could never repeat that experience.  The sense of awe and amazement was contingent on me going into the game blind, and a sequel can never repeat that.  So it was all fine and fair that the developers took a different approach to the story. Unfortunately, in the process the game lost that X-factor that made it so great. The "idea" of the sequel came before the story elements, and the result is a narrative mess with cringe-worthy writing and uninteresting characters.  It looks like Subnautica, and if you are just sandboxing around, it is quite enjoyable, but the main story arc feels like the work of a committee, which in a very real sense it was. 

What the KSP2 developers need to do (and I think they ARE doing this) is move the game forward beyond KSP1 by:

1. Creating a game that keeps the spirit of KSP alive.

2. Not trying to make a KSP1 clone with better graphics and performance.

3. Listening the community to a point, but also having the courage to push forward with their vision. 

 

If they do the above, which is what I believe they are doing, KSP2 will be a different animal, but a worthy successor.

 

I do think anyone looking for the same game with upgrades will be disappointed. I also think anyone looking for perfection on day one will be disappointed.  KSP2 will hopefully be with us for at least a decade as well, and we can only hope it gets the same continual development that KSP1 got.  My first post on this forum was in March 2018, so I have only been at this for a little over 3 years, and even in that time, this game has expanded a lot. When I look at older videos of the early versions, it is almost unrecognizable.

So I am optimistic.

 

 

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Squad selling KSP to Take 2 might be the reason we got KSP for 10 years.

If Squad hadn't sold KSP when they did the last update might have been 1.4 or 1.5

I think I bought KSP for US$20 and then the game got updated for another 5 years....for free

Thanks Squad for selling KSP, and thanks Take Two for giving it to someone like Nate Simpson to make KSP2 whose a KSP1 nut case (meaning someone who loves KSP)

 

Edited by Anth12
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20 minutes ago, Serenity said:

This requires a long period of development time and of course a lot of money.

Neither of those are provided nowadays, there is an immense pressure to release early and usually get underpaid.

Realistically and i can't stress this enough, i hope i am wrong, there isn't gonna be enough time to create what is needed to support multiple playstyles.

Ironically this basically sums up the source of all KSP1 problems, which basically works best in sandbox and every other mode is barely a prototype that needs tens of mods to be considered playable.

Also the game was supposed to be released a year ago and now it's going to realease in more than a year, I don't see pressure for an early release, quite the opposite.

 

25 minutes ago, Serenity said:

Filling the game with modular designs.

I think I'm not catching the negative meaning of "modular designs" here, the whole game is designed around modular designs, it's the proper description of what the "lego-like part system" is.

 

40 minutes ago, Serenity said:

These wings for example, you are encouraged to miss the opportunity to learn and experiment how flight control surfaces work.

Of course it's an amazing way to optimize and solve so many problems current Kerbal has,

but even if we get some limited customizing options the experience will be subpar.

 Procedural wings are exactly the opposite of a modular design, and in the few frames we saw we also saw the player in question moving around and resizing the control surface embedded in the winglet.

It's way too early to know how far on in what direction they'll take the procedural wings, but, unless they have the KSP1 parts in the VAB just for testing, we already saw old KSP1 wing pieces in some of the editor shots and thus my theory for now it's that you'll be able to resize and reshape modular wings (modular intended as "single lego like parts like in KSP1") up to a point to give players more flexibility when designing their own planes.

KSP 1 has a huge problem with wings for medium sized and big planes, you have exactly 2 types of big wings and are premade fixed models with very niche use cases, while the rest of the wing parts, even in their huge numbers, come out pretty limited given the small number of control surfaces and the few, predetermined, ways they can interact without clipping or leaving gaps.

In this case I think you're throwing under the train an idea that was shortly shown in a few frames of a video while saying that the objectively flawed system of KSP1 is better and I don't think that's the case, especially given that we saw them resizing a single wing piece, I don't think that's reasonable to assume that's the whole wing system for KSP2

 

43 minutes ago, Serenity said:

Lets go even further, exploring and colonizing multiple planets, the rockets, the stations, the bases.

Pre-made modular designs, with a few options to personalize them

And once again, we saw very little of how this system is going to work, and what little we saw already offers way more options than the mix of the "make believe" contract system of KSP1 with the fact that 99% of the huge bases, station or spaceships in KSP1 are made out of repurposed MK3 plane parts.

KSP1 has exactly 5 station parts and you have to pretend they are base part if you want to build bases too. This update (the last one nonetheless) bringing in the ground anchor makes it the first ground base part for KSP in 10 years of development and my humble opinion is that anything is better than nothing at all and a tiered build-in-place systems that goes from a few inflatable temporary habs all the way up to colonies, factories, launch centres and space cities it's alone beyond anything any of us dared to hope for KSP1.

 

49 minutes ago, Serenity said:

few variations of a ''pseudo'' evolve roadmap that will give you 

a sense that things progress, magically appearing and changing, through invisible deliveries of upgrades inside our favorite containers.

We don't know how the bases will evolve, how the resource system will work, how the supply routes will works or how all these things will interact with each other but let's take one thing at a time and make an apple to apple comparison with confirmed things we already know about those systems.

  • Bases and stations will be able to evolve in KSP2 and not only on a time basis as opposed to bases and stations build for contracts not even needing to be crewed, a fuel tank with 16 seats strapped on is a 16 crew certified capable station/base
  • You have to mine and process different resources to make different things and advanced fuels as opposed to you poke the ground with a needle and suck some ore from it, you throw it in you magic box and your SSTA can go anywhere in the system and... that's it that's the whole complexity of the resource system.
  • Supply routes enable you to repeat missions you already done to automate resource transfers and milk runs as opposed to random contracts of mining 173 unists of ORE from [Eve] to bring them to [Minmus].

To me those are objective improvements, I can't see how anyone could possibly consider this a step back.

 

57 minutes ago, Serenity said:

Variations that will consume most of the dev time so there will be not enough time to create a more personalized open-world experience in crafting.

 I don't get this at all, what are you meaning with "personalized open-world experience" and how that's a thing in KSP1 and not 2?

 

59 minutes ago, Serenity said:

So eventually the game will become more of a management style instead of actually creating your own space fairing civilization.

We know the basics of some systems here and there, with the data we have now the game can equally become one of the two, both or none depending on how you play.

 

1 hour ago, Serenity said:

Again this is only a concern, i do not know what will happen, and even it happens it doesn't mean it will be a bad game, just a different game.

The game is taking KSP1, rebuilding it with a more solid base to enable all of those things that KSP couldn't handle and then building upon that, it is going to be a different game, even just for the fact that KSP1 gameplay style will just be the beginning of the gameplay in KSP2 given all the new tools and systems that will enable a lot more creativity and options.

 

Yes, probably in KSP1 you had to use your creativity more in pretending that a contraption made out of hundreds of plane fuselages, fuel tanks and colored lights was a Space Casino, but that's the same as saying that a blank piece of paper is better than a book because you can use your creativity to immagine a better story.

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It's a binary star.

KSP-1 is a red dwarf, having collected the scattered matter which formed the second component - KSP-2.

KSP-1 will keep being the red dwarf. Long-living on the computers of its fans, but without any other perspective or further evolution. Then it will shade out.

KSP 2 is a short-living blue giant. It will soon get much brighter, but then will quickly become a white dwarf.
Existing mostly on the computers of the fans, but lighting a little brighter due to PR.

Then (probably in several years) both will become a binary dwarf star (red and white).
Living for trillions of years due to the fans, but visible only in short radius.

Edited by kerbiloid
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19 hours ago, Master39 said:

I bought "Half-life: Alyx the final hours" the source for most of that video the day it came out and consumed it immediately.

I know about that prototype.

I don't remember this prototype was mentioned in the final hours of HLA.

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7 minutes ago, Thundy said:

I don't remember this prototype was mentioned in the final hours of HLA.

If I'm not mistaken it was not the full video but only the name Simtrek and a screenshot of the cockpit.

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