Project Orion: A discussion of Science and Science Fiction

[SOXBLOX]

For a plain ol' Orion launch, the safe distance is x, where x equals 1/2 the circumference of the Earth.

[Starhelperdude]

a beam-core antimatter, like the frisbee, would be a ''good'' idea, since it basically just reacts matter (LH2) with antimatter

problem though is that it's ultra long because it generates so much heat that the frisbee for example needs 500 KILOMETERS of radiators

and if you would stand besides it you would also die because of neutron radiation

and have fun collecting or making soo much antimatter for such an engine

[Spacescifi]

22 minutes ago, Starhelperdude said:

a beam-core antimatter, like the frisbee, would be a ''good'' idea, since it basically just reacts matter (LH2) with antimatter

problem though is that it's ultra long because it generates so much heat that the frisbee for example needs 500 KILOMETERS of radiators

and if you would stand besides it you would also die because of neutron radiation

and have fun collecting or making soo much antimatter for such an engine

 

Production won't be an issue, it is not-antimatter-but-detonates-like-antimatter for scifi purposes.

[Scotius]

Then you might as well write that this not-antimatter doesn't produce any meaningful amount of radiation, and be done with the matter.

[Spacescifi]

1 minute ago, Scotius said:

Then you might as well write that this not-antimatter doesn't produce any meaningful amount of radiation, and be done with the matter.

 

No.  Easier to handle, same yield with same radiation on detonation.

 

2 minutes ago, Scotius said:

Then you might as well write that this not-antimatter doesn't produce any meaningful amount of radiation, and be done with the matter.

 

Orion drive is also for heavy lifting, since rocket engines melt at temperatues the orion reaction drive uses.

[kerbiloid]

It's a special, alien antimatter.

They can shape it like plasticine, boil in a kettle, and store in the kitchen fridge.

Also it produces no radiation, but pure light, which can be reflected with a mirror.

[Scotius]

Alien mirror! Because any mirror we could make, would be instantly vaporized by the first flash

[SOXBLOX]

Sooo, does this totally-not-antimatter annihilate on contact with matter? 'Cause if it does, then it's not better...

[wumpus]

6 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

 

Production won't be an issue, it is not-antimatter-but-detonates-like-antimatter for scifi purposes.

Then why ask about how science works if you are going to ignore it?  And you also have to make sure that your super-magic-pixie dust has to make large explosions, while antimatter will scale to whatever size antimatter you have and can safely contain.

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

Sooo, does this totally-not-antimatter annihilate on contact with matter? 'Cause if it does, then it's not better...

 

The not-antimatter is not a naturally occuring element. It is engineered using super science.

It does NOT annihilate for the reason antimatter does. Rather it's energy storage is so high that if it will combust if sufficient heat is applied, then all stored energy is released at once.

A grenade is surrounded by the unobtanium, which is surrounded by an outer insulator material to prevent premature outside heating.

 

Not-antimatter as an unfinished product is a literal thermodynamic energy sponge material. It can absorb massive heat loads as potential energy without vaporizing.

But once the product's energy level is capped off during final processing any further rise in temperture above a few degrees will cause detonation of all stored energy.

 

1 hour ago, wumpus said:

Then why ask about how science works if you are going to ignore it?  And you also have to make sure that your super-magic-pixie dust has to make large explosions, while antimatter will scale to whatever size antimatter you have and can safely contain.

Because AM would require scifi level storage anyway , and I wanted something easier but the same yield.

Scifi AM bomblets are arguably just as scifi as the not-antimatter right now.

 

Antimatter is so finicky that it virtually prohibits major use. I wanted something less so.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Spacescifi

[Nuke]

id figure to guess that its about the same distance from las vegas to the nevada test site. 

[SOXBLOX]

It absorbs heat ... and converts it into useful energy? My friend, you have created a way to short-change thermodynamics.

I would suggest that maybe it has to be compressed in really complex, massive facilities with huge power requirements? And then it stays stable until you detonate it, like mmH? IDK, but I think that might work better. Of course, it would be better to use it in a different kind of engine; Orion drives are pretty niche applications; they work best for pulses which don't scale down well. Maybe something like ICF, where you blast fuel pellets with lasers? I would imagine that would be more efficient...

Edited June 20, 2021 by SOXBLOX

[Spacescifi]

20 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

It absorbs heat ... and converts it into useful energy? My friend, you have created a way to short-change thermodynamics.

I would suggest that maybe it has to be compressed in really complex, massive facilities with huge power requirements? And then it stays stable until you detonate it, like mmH? IDK, but I think that might work better. Of course, it would be better to use it in a different kind of engine; Orion drives are pretty niche applications; they work best for pulses which don't scale down well. Maybe something like ICF, where you blast fuel pellets with lasers? I would imagine that would be more efficient...

 

The unobtanium is useful as a heatsink among other things, since it will take waaay more heat than radiators will.

It requires AM level energy before it can no longer allow much energy before detonation.

Massive laser facilitiles augmented with massive solar ray beam focusing arrays focus all their energy onto the unobtanium....which barely rises in temperature from the room it's in during the whole process.

 

Theoretically it would make great laser armor or even travel near the sun armor. At least so long it is not absorbing enough energy to detonate it! 

EDIT: It would not since the finished product cannot afford to absorb more heat without releasing stored energy.

It's cheaper to just use it for project orion. Since it combines high eficiency and thrust.

The orion is mainly for launching 9300 ton or higher SSTO spaceships into space.

 

That's why it flips. Rises with rockets to clear launch area, then flips over to use the pusher plate to boost into orbit 

 

Flat saucer shape configuration is ideal since we have thrust to spare, and the wide area beneath allows for plenty of rocket engines beneath for initial launch.

When landed the pusher plate is on top, but the launch rocket engines are beneath.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

8 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

The not-antimatter is not a naturally occuring element. It is engineered using super science.

It does NOT annihilate for the reason antimatter does. Rather it's energy storage is so high that if it will combust if sufficient heat is applied, then all stored energy is released at once.

A grenade is surrounded by the unobtanium, which is surrounded by an outer insulator material to prevent premature outside heating.

The only thing I can't get in this paradise: why do they still need pusher plates.

The super-fuel should just burn in a super-chamber and flow from a super-nozzle.

It's much more efficient way than a pusher plate, where most part of power gets spent around without giving any thrust.
It doesn't need pulse shocks.
It's in any way better than the Orion design, which is purely reluctant by the lack of super-materials.

2 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

It's cheaper to just use it for project orion. Since it combines high eficiency and thrust.

The project Orion has nothing common with efficiency and thrust, it's just the only way to get relatively high ISP and thrust in a simple way available at the current stoneage technologies.

2 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

That's why it flips. Rises with rockets to clear launch area, then flips over to use the pusher plate to boost into orbit 

They have invented the lateral boosters long ago.

And the flip means that the CoM travel will turn the rocket into a boomerang. The plate is heavy, after all.

Edited June 20, 2021 by kerbiloid

[SOXBLOX]

Buuuuuut, the problem is that you're reversing entropy by taking heat and turning it into "useful work", that is, useable energy. That totally circumvents thermodynamics. If you do that, you are instantly renouncing hard SF.

You can try what I suggested above, or something along those lines, but the heat-converting property has got to go for it to be realistic.

I would think that the loss of that property would be acceptable. I mean, it's kinda OP. So dropping it might be better for balance. You can still have an energy-dense superfuel, though. It just can't absorb heat and turn it into useable energy.

Edited June 20, 2021 by SOXBLOX

[Spacescifi]

6 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

The only thing I can't get in this paradise: why do they still need pusher plates.

The super-fuel should just burn in a super-chamber and flow from a super-nozzle.

It's much more efficient way than a pusher plate, where most part of power gets spent around without giving any thrust.
It doesn't need pulse shocks.
It's in any way better than the Orion design, which is purely reluctant by the lack of super-materials.

The project Orion has nothing common with efficiency and thrust, it's just the only way to get relatively high ISP and thrust in a simple way available at the current stoneage technologies.

They have invented the lateral boosters long ago.

And the flip means that the CoM travel will turn the rocket into a boomerang. The plate is heavy, after all.

 

You cannot get (understand) what you do not understand whenever you miss or overlook information.

As I said earlier, in it's finished form the unobtanium WILL explode if it's temperature rises even a few degrees. Because in it's final form the unobtanium is already storing enough energy to rival AM. Even a little more energy absorbed will push it over the edge.

If you tried what you recommend...you would wipe out not only the launch facility, but likely a good portion of the local state that tried to launch it!

6 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

Buuuuuut, the problem is that you're reversing entropy by taking heat and turning it into "useful work", that is, useable energy. That totally circumvents thermodynamics. If you do that, you are instantly renouncing hard SF.

You can try what I suggested above, or something along those lines, but the heat-converting property has got to go for it to be realistic.

I would think that the loss of that property would be acceptable. I mean, it's kinda OP. So dropping it might be better for balance. You can still have an energy-dense superfuel, though. It just can't absorb heat and turn it into useable energy.

 

Oh I never was trying to make hard scifi.

What if you could do this or that has always fascinated me. As it allows answers to questions either not asked or questions that cannot be answered otherwise.

[kerbiloid]

Okay.

Yes, it will work.

[SOXBLOX]

8 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Oh I never was trying to make hard scifi.

Better change your username, then. 

And yeah, if something like this existed, you could probably do a lot with it. You could theoretically make a 100% efficient machine, I think. But that breaks physics...

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

Better change your username, then. 

And yeah, if something like this existed, you could probably do a lot with it. You could theoretically make a 100% efficient machine, I think. But that breaks physics...

Well Hardscifi just sounds....wrong?

Too much OTHER connotation if you know what I mean.

 

Softscifi sounds weak.

 

Spacescifi? Sounds...nice.

[Bej Kerman]

On 6/19/2021 at 12:15 AM, Spacescifi said:

What is the safe distance to be unprotected on Earth from an Antimatter Project Orion Launch?

The safe distance is never, if not as far from any human populated planets as possible.

[kerbiloid]

5 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Well Hardscifi just sounds....wrong?

Softscifi sounds weak.

The only part of this which causes doubts is "sci".

[Spacescifi]

JFK is known as arguably the president in modern history who is most strongly associated with space travel due to the Apollo missions.

Consider this alt history scenario: JFK is said to have had several mistresses beyond his actual wife.

In this alt history, his wife jacky cheats on him in revenge.... with a spy from the Soviet Union and literally goes to live there under asylum.

 

This pushes JFK over the edge,  so when he sees the Orion project, instead of recoiling in horror he is like, "When can you start?"

He also provides as much money for project as reasonably possible, at the risk of the USA economy suffering some.

 

If that happened, how would the world be today?

 

 

This vid looks more realistic though.

 

 

My opinion:

 

1. JFK would be a much more controversal figure in history, no longe only like a legend in American history... but infamous.

2. The fed government is sued over and over by any American with cancer they claim is from Orion project launches.

 

 

What else happens? Assume WW3 does not occur since that outcome is well scripted and obvious.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Spacescifi

[SunlitZelkova]

1. No nuclear arms control treaties because the US has to keep building bombs to keep the program going

2. USSR starts a counter project with PK-3000 and PK-5000 (their Orion equivalents)

3. Nuclear weapons testing continues to the present day

4. On March 19th, 1975, an undetected asteroid collides with the Earth in the Persian Gulf, destroying most mammalian and sea life

5. Guinea pigs, on the opposite side of the world, survive the mass extinction, along with other South American rodents

6. Millions of years later, the rodents evolve to become the dominant species on the planet

7. Rodents, due to their nature, do not form divisive tribes as humans did, and thus successfully pioneers towards interstellar travel instead of endless conflict

8. In the midst of a massive interstellar colonization program, rodents encounter the other "intelligent" species of this universe, and successfully destroy and enslave them in conflict

9. The rodents ruthlessly terraform different worlds as part of their colonization program

10. The rodents do the same but intergalactically

11. The rodents develop inter-universal travel and proceed to subjugate the near infinite series of worlds under their rule.

--------------------------------------------------------------

In all seriousness though, one can kind of do anything they want within this scenario. Kennedy could probably not get Orion approved because of pro-arms control activists, let alone Congress' disgust at the potential price tag. To get Orion to happen, you probably need to have a series of events which would include-

1. Stalin living longer + a politician who continues Stalin's policies in power in the USSR. This closes any interest from either side towards arms control treaties (or treaties of any kind for that matter) and eliminates the anti-nuclear movement issue. It also increases the intensity of Cold War paranoia, which would get Congress to support Orion.

2. Get the Soviets to win the Moon Race.

3. Get the US to initiate a Mars Race (Second Space Race). This depends on the US public being able to support these "space races", and to do that, you need to maintain public trust in the government in the 60s and 70s, which means-

4. Don't let the US get further involved Vietnam beyond advisors. One needs to keep Kennedy alive to do this probably. Stephen Baxter does this by having Jacqueline killed instead of John. This also clears up funding for Orion. By the way, something like four times the Apollo program budget was what the US spent per day fighting in Vietnam in 1968.

5. But with no Vietnam, you never have counter culture and its butterfly effect on US thinking. What that will do to technological development is unknown. Assuming women have been important in innovation since the mid 20th century, expect technology to be a bit more backwards. Because of Cold War paranoia, the DOD may keep some of the early internet concepts under their control. And while different universities had their own networks which might form some sort of internet equivalent, because of cultural standards that don't really depart from the 1950s (because no Vietnam to trigger that change, and we need no Vietnam to fund Orion) you could see some sort of censorship to protect against "radicalism" and "communist propaganda". And while an internet equivalent might come to form in the Communist Bloc (probably no Sino-Soviet split btw if there is no de-Stalinization) it will not be linked with the Western version. The internet will still have the effects it has had on culture and thinking, but under the control of two groups of conservatives, so instead of the spread of information and free movement of ideas, there would be an entrenchment of ideas and further hardening of stances on two sides vehemently opposed to eachother.

The issue with all of this though is that it lets Cold War tension escalate out of control and possibly eliminates the Soviet Union's economic issues in the 70s and 80s. Which means the Cold War will never end. So you might get humans on Mars by the 1980s, but you are left with a world that will perpetually be divided, always on the brink of devastation.

[Spacescifi]

31 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

1. No nuclear arms control treaties because the US has to keep building bombs to keep the program going

2. USSR starts a counter project with PK-3000 and PK-5000 (their Orion equivalents)

3. Nuclear weapons testing continues to the present day

4. On March 19th, 1975, an undetected asteroid collides with the Earth in the Persian Gulf, destroying most mammalian and sea life

5. Guinea pigs, on the opposite side of the world, survive the mass extinction, along with other South American rodents

6. Millions of years later, the rodents evolve to become the dominant species on the planet

7. Rodents, due to their nature, do not form divisive tribes as humans did, and thus successfully pioneers towards interstellar travel instead of endless conflict

8. In the midst of a massive interstellar colonization program, rodents encounter the other "intelligent" species of this universe, and successfully destroy and enslave them in conflict

9. The rodents ruthlessly terraform different worlds as part of their colonization program

10. The rodents do the same but intergalactically

11. The rodents develop inter-universal travel and proceed to subjugate the near infinite series of worlds under their rule.

--------------------------------------------------------------

In all seriousness though, one can kind of do anything they want within this scenario. Kennedy could probably not get Orion approved because of pro-arms control activists, let alone Congress' disgust at the potential price tag. To get Orion to happen, you probably need to have a series of events which would include-

1. Stalin living longer + a politician who continues Stalin's policies in power in the USSR. This closes any interest from either side towards arms control treaties (or treaties of any kind for that matter) and eliminates the anti-nuclear movement issue. It also increases the intensity of Cold War paranoia, which would get Congress to support Orion.

2. Get the Soviets to win the Moon Race.

3. Get the US to initiate a Mars Race (Second Space Race). This depends on the US public being able to support these "space races", and to do that, you need to maintain public trust in the government in the 60s and 70s, which means-

4. Don't let the US get further involved Vietnam beyond advisors. One needs to keep Kennedy alive to do this probably. Stephen Baxter does this by having Jacqueline killed instead of John. This also clears up funding for Orion. By the way, something like four times the Apollo program budget was what the US spent per day fighting in Vietnam in 1968.

5. But with no Vietnam, you never have counter culture and its butterfly effect on US thinking. What that will do to technological development is unknown. Assuming women have been important in innovation since the mid 20th century, expect technology to be a bit more backwards. Because of Cold War paranoia, the DOD may keep some of the early internet concepts under their control. And while different universities had their own networks which might form some sort of internet equivalent, because of cultural standards that don't really depart from the 1950s (because no Vietnam to trigger that change, and we need no Vietnam to fund Orion) you could see some sort of censorship to protect against "radicalism" and "communist propaganda". And while an internet equivalent might come to form in the Communist Bloc (probably no Sino-Soviet split btw if there is no de-Stalinization) it will not be linked with the Western version. The internet will still have the effects it has had on culture and thinking, but under the control of two groups of conservatives, so instead of the spread of information and free movement of ideas, there would be an entrenchment of ideas and further hardening of stances on two sides vehemently opposed to eachother.

The issue with all of this though is that it lets Cold War tension escalate out of control and possibly eliminates the Soviet Union's economic issues in the 70s and 80s. Which means the Cold War will never end. So you might get humans on Mars by the 1980s, but you are left with a world that will perpetually be divided, always on the brink of devastation.

 

Wow.... great story.

 

A kerbal would consider that scenario acceptable LOL.... because.... they get to go to SPAAACE today!

[Gargamel]

Kennedy would never have approved Orion.   Mercury had just finished when he was assassinated.    Anything beyond the moon was off the table till we landed there.   The tech nor the procedures weren't even available at the time, in comparison to Orion, Apollo was practically flinging men into space in ships held together with duct tape and hot glue.  

If the time came that Orion was a feasible project, and that's a huge if given the massive cost of Apollo (2.5% of the US GDP vs 0.4% for the Manhattan project for scale of these wartime projects), the nuclear test ban treaty was in place.    Enacting Orion would be a violation of this treaty, and it would not have been a viable option to withdraw from or revise the treaty until the 1990's. 

So no matter the scenario you envision, there is zero chance (not even a non-zero chance) that Kennedy would have been even able to green light Orion even if he had wanted to.