The Death Of The Heavy Scifi Battle Spaceship

[Spacescifi]

The Death Of The Heavy Scifi Battle Spaceship

I totally realize that scifi is often a compromise between fiction and reality.

I also realize that at times, reality is simply not good enough.

Example? I will give one that includes a compromise between fiction and reality.

Fictional compromise: You have an 80,000 ton spaceship that uses antimatter thermal rocketry for main sublight engines. Ten percent of it's mass is propellant (8000 tons).

You also have a warp drive that can move space past your ship. At max acceleration the warp drive can warp space up to light speed in 60 seconds. Lightspeed is the max warp speed, but you can warp however slow you want, and accelerate slowly or up to max warp (60 sec to lightspeed).

Warp navigation: Warp travel is linear. Use RCS thrusters to point ship's nose where you wish to warp and engage. In warp you can pitch, yaw, and roll, but it won't change your linear warp direction.

To change your warp direction at warp, point your ship's nose where you wish to warp and engage. Off you go in another linear warp direction. You can drop warp at anytime you wish. Each time you reengage warp your warpspeed resets to zero before increasing to whatever acceleration you set up to maximum (60 sec to lightspeed).

Jump drive: Enables interstellar jumps. Jump maximum range is directly linked to how long you warp with your warp drive. Requires 15 minutes to power up for a jump, while your warp drive is inactive.

If you have not warped at all you have 7 light years of max jump range. Jumping is just like the method to engage warp, except you instantly jump interstellar. Jump range goes down based on distance jumped. To refill your jump bank jump bank you must jump within 7 light hours of ANOTHER star. Otherwise it will stay depleted until you use it all up.

Weapons: For self-defense, your vessel has 50 warp missiles that also have rocket engines and RCS. Warp missiles can max warp to lightspeed in 15 SECONDS. Warp missiles only warp for 60 seconds before dropping out of warp, as their warp engines have tiny warp power banks. After that they can only use their rocket engine.

The scenario in which your ship likely won't survive: A light second away you detect a vessel similar to your own. It launches a warp missile at you. You have fifteen seconds before impact.

You burn your RCS thrusters hard for 5 seconds to rotate your ship's nose away from the oncoming warp missile. You engage warp. At high warp your vessel and the missile narrowly shoot past each other, while you push your warp acceleration to the max to reach lightspeed in 60 seconds.

The warp missile flips over and reengages warp in your direction.

"Impact in 10 seconds captain!" barks your pilot.

Options?

1. Launch warp missiles and try to hit a warp missile with a warp missile...in less than ten seconds LOL.

2. Try to warp dodge again, only to realize now the missile has closed even more distance the moment it reaquires a firing solution on your vessel to hit it at warp.

3. Try to laser zap the warp missile in less than ten seconds.

4. A solution of your own if you can think of a good one.

Conclusion: So what is the point of all this?

A very simple one. The heavier your spaceship the more it's RCS turn rate is slower or it has to use up more propellant to turn faster. For survival you want a high turn rate, especially for dodging warp missiles. But that is only a temporary solution, as warp missiles fired a light second away will catch up sooner or later. They have faster warp acceleration.

My point? Against hypevelocity weapons that can reaquire for several tries...like warp missiles, big heavy ships are sitting ducks.

At scifi tech levels like this, warp fighter craft, even with 30 seconds only of warp, would likely be the kings of space combat.

The age of the big space battleship is over when it cannot effectively dodge fast weaponry nor shield against it.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Spacescifi

[SOXBLOX]

Well, you can use the gravimetric engineering technobabble from the warp drive to alter the ship's inertia... Then you could give it whatever turn rate you want.

And warp fighters wouldn't be the meta, either. Warp drone swarms? Maybe.

So yes, if you pack ship-destroying firepower into tiny, very common packages, big ships are vulnerable. But they can mount larger equipment, right? And more weapons. So they still have an edge. I am seeing some very strong historical parallels with PT boats and battleships here. Lots of people in the '20's said battleships were obsolete because of torpedo boats. Aaaand then they invented the (torpedo boat) destroyer.

It all depends on what you're trying to fight.

[Spacescifi]

13 minutes ago, SOXBLOX said:

Well, you can use the gravimetric engineering technobabble from the warp drive to alter the ship's inertia... Then you could give it whatever turn rate you want.

And warp fighters wouldn't be the meta, either. Warp drone swarms? Maybe.

So yes, if you pack ship-destroying firepower into tiny, very common packages, big ships are vulnerable. But they can mount larger equipment, right? And more weapons. So they still have an edge. I am seeing some very strong historical parallels with PT boats and battleships here. Lots of people in the '20's said battleships were obsolete because of torpedo boats. Aaaand then they invented the (torpedo boat) destroyer.

It all depends on what you're trying to fight.

 

This is what happens when you do not  have (or do not want to use) inertial dampners in a scifi setting.

 

Warp is NOT acceleration, so it does not require inertial dampeners.

 

At a light second away a heavy ship is more doomed than not.

 

They would have to rely on forward scouts before moving on places or they could get wrecked.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Spacescifi

[SunlitZelkova]

*Reply aimed at examining the SF works themselves*

Well the thing is, a lot of the stories/films whatever where heavy space battleships originated were never intended to be serious attempts at realism anyways.

*Various novels from the 40s to the 60s*

Star Trek

Star Wars

These are all works of art, set in space, with science-like elements sprinkled in to enhance entertainment for the reader. And with no internet for people with knowledge of "how it would actually work" to complain on and with "nerd" having much more of a negative stigma than it does now, the artists/creators felt no need to make an effort toward realism as their primary target audience was interested in the artistic and entertainment aspect of their works, not the realism. Even if there was, these are still works of art, and the creator is entitled to do whatever they want to to enhance the story (storytelling is the purpose of the medium they used).

Modern works that still contain such large combat craft are simply following the trend. So I don't think the creators/authors can be blamed too much.

*Reply aimed at examining the actual tech*

I don't think there should ever have been an expectation for/will be large combat craft in space in the first place.

On Earth, navies went to battleships as weapons simply became more powerful, ships more sturdy, and this required an increase in both armor and the size of the vessel to hold newer, more powerful guns.

Torpedo boats were developed for both coastal defence and as a possible cheap counter to battleships. A number of large battleships had to be refit with lighter guns (75-76.2mm) to defend against the new threat. However torpedo boats never ended up killing the battleship concept as they too were limited in speed due to the limitations the water creates. There is only so fast a boat could go with 1910s-1940s technology.

Then bring the airplane. Although to primitive and somewhat experimental to prove effective in changing the tide of battle in World War I, come World War II aviation technology had improved immensely. Airplanes could fly far faster than before- even at the start of the war, sometimes faster than the common anti-aircraft guns of some nations could handle- and carry a heavy bombload in comparison with their counterparts from the previous global conflict.

Just as space battleships could not escape lighter craft and missiles as you wrote, the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse could not escape the Japanese G4M and G3M bombers carrying bombs and torpedoes. Once they were spotted they were doomed.

Now enter space- the final frontier, and perhaps the "final" theater of war. Technology already needs to be at a very high level to be fighting in space anyways- for such event to occur there would need to be two competing vast societies that not only exist in space, but at least partially depend on space for their existence (to make it worth fighting over).

There would be no need to climb from sailing ship-ironclad-battleship-dreadnought-airplane/aircraft carrier as there was on Earth. Militaries would likely jump straight to high speed small craft. There would likely be little need for some sort of mothership in this scenario.

So rather than "the age of the space battleship is over", I would go a step further and say it is unrealistic for an "age of the space battleship" to occur at all.

[Scotius]

"Just as space battleships could not escape lighter craft and missiles as you wrote, the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse could not escape the Japanese G4M and G3M bombers carrying bombs and torpedoes. Once they were spotted they were doomed. "

And an obvious answer to this were task forces, with heaviest, most valuable units in the center of a circular formation of lighter units. Often such screen of massed AA fire would be combined with CAP of fighters provided by aircraft carriers. Add good radar coverage and things like AA shells with radar fuses, and you get a floating fortress.

Mid to late war US Navy task forces were so brutally effective at mauling incoming air attacks, Japanese had to resort to suicidal attacks to score any significant hits.

Then again - mature combat doctrine and coordination are things we almost never see in sci-fi works.

[Codraroll]

Basically another thread of "I make up some rules, here's why X doesn't work". You seem to make one almost every day.

I must admit, I am tired. Do these forums have an "ignore member" function?

Edited June 30, 2021 by Codraroll

[kerbiloid]

Any battleship means nothing against the personal warp & cloaking device.

Spoiler

 

Just appear behind the captain's back.

 

***

Upd. a 90,000 t spaceship works rather another way from the 80,000 t one.

The precision is important.

[Kerbart]

Well, you forgot to mention that electromagnetic cloaking and graviton wave deflectors are so massive that only the largest battleships can carry them, and thus are the only ships that are fully undetectable by any means. So in fact, large battleships are the only ships capable of surviving the future battlefield.

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, Scotius said:

"Just as space battleships could not escape lighter craft and missiles as you wrote, the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse could not escape the Japanese G4M and G3M bombers carrying bombs and torpedoes. Once they were spotted they were doomed. "

And an obvious answer to this were task forces, with heaviest, most valuable units in the center of a circular formation of lighter units. Often such screen of massed AA fire would be combined with CAP of fighters provided by aircraft carriers. Add good radar coverage and things like AA shells with radar fuses, and you get a floating fortress.

Mid to late war US Navy task forces were so brutally effective at mauling incoming air attacks, Japanese had to resort to suicidal attacks to score any significant hits.

Then again - mature combat doctrine and coordination are things we almost never see in sci-fi works.

This, also range, one light second is 300.000 km I assume this is well within range of direct energy weapons who would be secondary weapons here like the guns on modern warships. 
 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Couldn't you just cast a Protection 3 spell right before you teleport the ship out of the way?

 

...

 

 

...

 

 

This snark brought with a purpose: When I'm reading an Honor Harrington I'm not really worried about the ISP of her craft.  The author has already signaled to me that the Impossible Drive and Future Tech is such that 'these people can do incredible things' -- so at that point I'm just looking for a good story.  (probably why I stopped reading Honor Harrington).

 

On the other hand - if you want to tell the story of the first Space Privateer attempting to steal ore from Galactic Imperial Communist Mining Drone Ship Alpha (in a world not 50 years from now) - and the story hinges on near-future, physics faithful action... I will enjoy that.

 

But once you put in a Warp Torpedo... just stop with ISP and RCS, and have fun.  Toss in an inertial generator, let the ship whip about at 27g and fire broadsides at the Squid People

Edited June 30, 2021 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[kerbiloid]

47 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Galactic Imperial Communist Mining Drone Ship Alpha

Oxymoron and unproper naming. Kick your intelligence officer's back for misleading disinformation, he lies you.

Quote

Imperial Communist

Oxymoron. Just impossible. "Imperial", "emperor" means "somebody who can force/rule something", while "Communist" is by definition a society with no forcing, a commune of volunteers.

So, unrelated to actual things, would never be comnbined in naming.

Quote

Galactic Imperial Communist Mining Drone Ship Alpha

Automated Self-Propelled Dredge no. 247 "Mississippian Pioneer"

(it's like a scout, but a pioneer, with red neck tie. The dredge is built out of metal scrap gathered by the Mississippian pioneers, so has its own name, not just a number)

The previous variant sounds too loud.

Edited June 30, 2021 by kerbiloid

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

32 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Oxymoron

My Political Officer informs me in the most compunctious manner (as he blows smoke from his pistol) that if Elizabeth can have a Constitutional Space Monarchy, Xi can be Emperor of the Galactic Communist Party. 

[kerbiloid]

23 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Xi can be Emperor of the Galactic Communist Party. 

A misunderstanding again. Literally - a "Universal Unity Party".

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

13 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

A misunderstanding again. Literally - a "Universal Unity Party".

Exactly.  With an Emperor.  Humans are fickle and will believe whatever the State tells them it is acceptable to believe.

 

...

 

Until they don't (Rebel Scum)

[SpaceFace545]

11 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Lightspeed is the max warp speed

ain't how warp drives work, their premise is to move above and beyond Lightspeed by simply not moving nor accelerating.

[kerbiloid]

3 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Exactly.  With an Emperor. 

You don't get. It's the real party title.

Edited June 30, 2021 by kerbiloid

[SOXBLOX]

6 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Militaries would likely jump straight to high speed small craft. There would likely be little need for some sort of mothership in this scenario.

I could *maybe* see this in a defense scenario. These fighters/corvettes (how small, exactly?) hang out around an outpost, or whatever. They can patrol a planet's gravity well, or maybe even a star system.

But you cannot convince me any sane military would send swarms of fighters on an interstellar offensive. Even if they can carry a warp drive, be fitted with suitable sensors and computer banks, be equipped with enough weapons to fight until they are resupplied, and accommodate their crew properly, they won't have any inherent advantages over probably more capable medium-sized ships. And larger ships.

Some great reading here. Also here.

Spoiler

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

"Communist" is by definition a society with no forcing, a commune of volunteers.

And if you decide not to work, either A) you will be shot at the order of the Emperor Party Leader, or B) the rest of the workforce will follow suit, and you will all starve. Together, though. 

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Does that mean I can't have a Grand High Admiral-Cardinal of the Universal Catholic Church Navy intercede with his Papal-Police StarCruiser either?

Edited June 30, 2021 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[SOXBLOX]

2 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Does that mean I can't have a Grand High Admiral-Cardinal of the Universal Catholic Church Navy intercede with his Papal-Police StarCruiser either?

He could hunt down the Lutheran heretics...

Edited June 30, 2021 by SOXBLOX

[kerbiloid]

Warrant  Dreadnoughter

Junior Dreadnoughter

Senior  Dreadnoughter

General  Dreadnoughter

Dreadnoughterissimus

Edited June 30, 2021 by kerbiloid

[wumpus]

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Any battleship means nothing against the personal warp & cloaking device.

***

Upd. a 90,000 t spaceship works rather another way from the 80,000 t one.

The precision is important.

But don't bring personal shields to a laser gun fight.  Or don't bring a laser gun to a knife fight.

[kerbiloid]

11 minutes ago, wumpus said:

But don't bring personal shields to a laser gun fight.  Or don't bring a laser gun to a knife fight.

Riddick needed just a tea cup.

[linuxgurugamer]

8 hours ago, Scotius said:

Then again - mature combat doctrine and coordination are things we almost never see in sci-fi works.

For some of that, look at the Honor Harrington series from David Weber, he uses lots of consultants to get things like that correct

[magnemoe]

4 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Couldn't you just cast a Protection 3 spell right before you teleport the ship out of the way?

 

...

 

 

...

 

 

This snark brought with a purpose: When I'm reading an Honor Harrington I'm not really worried about the ISP of her craft.  The author has already signaled to me that the Impossible Drive and Future Tech is such that 'these people can do incredible things' -- so at that point I'm just looking for a good story.  (probably why I stopped reading Honor Harrington).

 

On the other hand - if you want to tell the story of the first Space Privateer attempting to steal ore from Galactic Imperial Communist Mining Drone Ship Alpha (in a world not 50 years from now) - and the story hinges on near-future, physics faithful action... I will enjoy that.

 

But once you put in a Warp Torpedo... just stop with ISP and RCS, and have fun.  Toss in an inertial generator, let the ship whip about at 27g and fire broadsides at the Squid People

Just trow ducks at them, does wonder against squids. 
http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3300/fc03218.htm
Don't work as well as well against the Kzin who treat the ducks as snacks before the meal  

On the other side in Stelaris, 1000 battleships  and 5000 destroyers in an ambush behind an jump gate works well. 
Now that is an techno signature you don't want to see, an nova of coherent light with  an constant glow of soft x-rays as its so many nukes going off they blends. 
And the real scary part is that it was just some guys larping an old battle  

Edited June 30, 2021 by magnemoe

[Codraroll]

16 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

The warp missile flips over and reengages warp in your direction.

The "missiles miss but come back to try again" trope really needs to die.

For a missile to be capable of doing that, it needs to pack three times as much delta-V into it as it really requires. 1x to go from zero to impact speed, another 1x to cancel out its relative velocity away from the target after the miss, and another 1x to get back to impact speed in the right direction. Plus, you need to outfit the missile (which by its very nature is throwaway) with the capability to flip, reignite, calculate a new approach trajectory, and other costly and complicating features. All to handle the eventuality of the missile missing its target, which, y'know, shouldn't be the eventuality that guides your design. If the missiles are so poor they miss their targets often enough to need to be designed around it, gearing them up for another shot probably won't improve their odds all that much. If the foe can dodge once, they can dodge twice, and missiles aren't known for their excessive reserves of delta-V. They can't keep flipping and retrying forever.

And if you make the missiles good enough to usually hit their target on the first try, outfitting them with flip-and-retry capability would involve throwing away a lot of unneeded delta-V and fancy guidance systems. That makes the missiles more expensive and bigger than they need to be. That money and weapons bay space could probably be better used by having two simpler missiles instead of one fancy one.

Of course, if multiple-use warp drives are cheap enough that you can keep installing them on what is effectively fireworks, it may be a viable tactic to build a missile that keeps harassing its target until it eventually hits. But one would think an adversary capable of multiple missile dodges would have some way to permanently disable enemy missiles too.