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Duna... or Duna?


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My accent turns the common "doo-nah" into a subtle "dyoo-nah" instead, since transitioning between D and U feels most comfortable saying "dyoo" instead of "doo." Although, I can force "doo-nah" if I try.

Maybe it's the E on the end converting the sound of the "N"?

Edited by intelliCom
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On 7/3/2021 at 5:23 AM, kerbiloid said:

Module. Procedure.

On 7/3/2021 at 5:58 AM, K^2 said:

The open 'u' by itself is pronounced as "you", which is actually two sounds, the vowel "oo" and a voiced palatal approximant (I did have to look up the name, yes). That has tendency to merge with a preceding consonant in ways that vary heavily on language and dialect. (Because it's a tiny variation in tongue position and the exact timing on voice.) In at least some variations, the way the "dy" merge together, they start making a "dj" sound (as that includes a palatal fricative), and so it gets quite close to "Junah" in the way it sounds. Another option is for palatalization of the consonant itself, which would make it sound like "D'unah", which is the way pretty much any Eastern European will pronounce it (e.g. Russian). But in US English it does seem far more common for that voiced palatal approximant to either stay separate ("Dyoonah") or disappear entirely ("Doonah").

Don't these types of sounds only show  when the "d" is at the end of a syllable and the "u" is at the beginning of the next syllable?

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4 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Don't these types of sounds only show  when the "d" is at the end of a syllable and the "u" is at the beginning of the next syllable?

How would that even happen? A syllable only begins with a vowel if there is no consonant before it.

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5 hours ago, K^2 said:

How would that even happen? A syllable only begins with a vowel if there is no consonant before it.

mod-ule 

pro-ceed-ure

11 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

The more important question is whether its Laythe like wraith or Laythe like bathe.

like bathe

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40 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

The more important question is whether its Laythe like wraith or Laythe like bathe.

Problem is that there's two 'th' sounds in English - Eth, the voiced dental fricative, and Thorn, the voiceless dental fricative, which used to have letters in English, but no longer, making pronunciation unknown without colloquial knowledge.

Fun fact: 'Ye Old Pub' is pronounced 'The Old Pub', the Y is actually a mis-copying of a lower case thorn.

Edit: Double check: Thorn actually can and has been used for both depending on the script/language. IPA uses eth and theta.

Edited by DJWyre
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3 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

mod-ule 

So this is where English gets weird. Syntactically, the breakdown is mo-du-le. I mean, that's what that 'e' is there for, to give you an open 'u'. And 'o' also ends up open. An open 'e' at the end is silent, so that one's easy. Open 'u' makes that 'you' sound, and open 'o' can have a bit of an 'ow'. So what you have is mo(w)-d(y)u-l(e). Now, hardly anyone actually pronounces it this way, but we have the word modular, and mo(w)-d(y)u-lar is a common enough pronunciation. But for module by itself, language happens. First, in modern English, terminal 'e' is just silent, not reduces. So these sylables merge. You get mo(w)-d(y)ul(e). Now that second sylable is a truck for your tongue, and that's probably what accounts for the drift from d(y)u to dju. As discussed, difference is mostly in voice timing and tongue position. But once it's there, it changes sylable timing and, therefore, boundaries to mo(w)d-jul(e). Final change is that first sylable sound closed now, so the 'o' is no longer drawn out. You get mod-jule. And yes, because of this, that also carries to mod-ju-lar, even though that has nothing to do with pronunciation rules.

But the critical thing is that even though complexity of the sylable is what makes "correct" mo(w)-d(y)ul(e) pronunciation awkward and uncommon, that same drift from d(y)u to dju can hppen anywhere, even at the beginning of the word, where it won't impact sylbic structure.

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This is literally just a dialect thing. These are just different yod-based sound changes. North-American dialects of English tend towards yod dropping in this instance, wherein the ‘y’ sound was removed from the older pronunciation of such words (resulting in something akin to ‘doona’). Some dialects of English in England tend towards the older sound wherein the ‘y’ sound that often sneaks into many words with a ‘u’ is still pronounced (so you could write the sound as something like ‘dyoona’). Further still are those dialects which have a different sound change in such instances known as yod-coalescence, wherein neighbouring sounds in a word change for a more relaxed pronunciation. This happened particularly with the sounds (not necessarily the letters) ‘d’, ‘t’, ‘s’, and ‘z’; the former two are fairly variable from one group of dialects to the next, whereas the latter two are much more ubiquitous throughout English (e.g. ‘pleasure’, wherein the sound would be more akin to ‘pleaz-yuhr’ had it not experienced yod-coalescence such that it is now nearly universally ‘plea-zhuhr’).

Often these sound changes take place across a language, but to different degrees. Yod coalescence, for example, can be seen in US English in the word ‘educate’, but not in the word ‘dune’. In my own Scottish English, words such as ‘dune’ do indeed exhibit this sound changes, so I pronounced that ‘d’ with the same sound as the ‘d’ in ‘educate.’ In fact, this reminds of an amusing time in the US when I had to repeat myself several times to a guy working in a shop that I wanted a Mountain Dew before I realised what was going on and he was perceiving me as asking for a ‘Mountain Jew.’ You'd think it'd be contextually pretty obvious, but nevertheless. (And yes, as it happens, in Scottish English, or at least in my dialect of it, ‘dew’, ‘due’, and ‘Jew’ are homophonous; ‘dune’ and ‘June’ are nearly homophonous save for the vowel length).

But anyway, the point is, how you pronounce ‘Duna’ is very plainly dependant on your form of English. Anyone arguing that there is an absolute correct pronunciation that doesn't account for such dialectal differences is just a little lacking in the linguistic understanding department (which is fine, if a bit of a shame—it's a woefully-misunderstood area though, so that'll happen).

 

Edited by TeddyBearBonfire
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On 7/9/2021 at 7:53 AM, mcwaffles2003 said:

Don't these types of sounds only show  when the "d" is at the end of a syllable and the "u" is at the beginning of the next syllable?

Nope, yod coalescence can occur not only across syllable boundaries, but even across word boundaries (e.g. ‘got ya’ -> ‘gotcha’).

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