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Slippery Surface and Possible Rover Glitch (KSP 1.12)


Already_Dead
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I have this super weird issue in the game where the surface seems slippery and the rovers are pretty much sliding/drifting. I noticed this upon landing a science lab vessel on Minmus. The vessel seemed to be spinning very slowly. At first, I thought it was just a minor physics issue. Then I switched to my rover and right away I knew something was wrong because the surface seemed so slippery and difficult to control. It might be the same issue as to why my lab was spinning. I'm not sure if it has something to do with gravity but I managed to launch and land a vessel on Minmus pretty much normally. There's nothing out of the ordinary with regards to gravity.

Also, I've rendered hundreds of hours in the game so I'm well aware how the physics in the game works, how gravity on every celestial body works, and how each part of a vessel works.

 

Here's a link to the video of the issue (mods were removed in the video). I just wandered using this exact rover last week on Minmus and then this happened.

Here's the video on the Mun. I reverted it back to 1.11.2 and for some weird reason, the bug is still there even though I never came across it prior to 1.12. I was trying to press W and the vessel was flipping like it's in a vacuum. I'm absolutely sure that's not normal.

 

New videos for referrence:

On Duna WITHOUT the issue

On Duna WITH existing issue - you can see how unstable the rover is and how the slippery is the surface. Notice how I'm able to lift the rover there's no way the reaction wheels in Mk2 Lander Can can lift a hefty rover like that. So weird!

 

On Mun WITHOUT the issue

On Mun WITH existing issue

 

Please do take note that I DIDN'T change any of the wheel settings prior to the issue until the present. Everything was working fine with those settings and now they aren't.

 

Things I've done:

- I have mods installed via CKAN. I tried removing all the mods but the issue still exists.

- I reinstalled the game and even deleted all the folders under Steam and fresh install everything. Still no luck.

- I've used orbit cheats a few times to test vessels.

- Started a fresh save

- Verified integrity of game files on Steam.

-  I've tried it on Mun and the issue still persists. I've also tried it on Kerbin and the rover was acting weird as if it was a rocket. I tried switching the control point forward, up, and reverse still nothing. When I press W it pitches and tumbles instead of accelerating forward. I've tried cutting off the reaction wheels and overriding the traction as well but still no luck.

 

I'm super desperate and hope you guys can help me with this annoying issue. Thank you in advance for your responses. Have an awesome day!

Edited by Already_Dead
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not sure if 1.12 changed anything in that regard, but to me it seems a plausible effect of low gravity. Namely, your rover wheels don't exhert enough friction on the ground.

As a general principle, you can't send a rover on a low gravity planet like minmus and expect it to behave like a car. you accelerate slowly, you turn slowly, and you decelerate even more slowly. driving rovers on different planets is a very different experience.

 

minmus rover: gravity is not pushing your rover down enough to get friction. it's normal. just do things more slowly, you'll be able to pick up speed.

mun rover: again no bug, in this case reaction wheels are responsible. Your crew pod has some pretty strong reaction wheels, and they have the same commands as the wheels. so when you push w, the wheels try to move forward, and the reaction wheels try to point the vehicle downward. but you can manually deactivate the reaction wheels by right-clicking on the crew pod, you'll find an option to deactivate them

On duna it does not happen because on duna the local gravity is strong enough that your reaction wheels cannot lift the rover.

 

Edited by king of nowhere
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12 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

not sure if 1.12 changed anything in that regard, but to me it seems a plausible effect of low gravity. Namely, your rover wheels don't exhert enough friction on the ground.

As a general principle, you can't send a rover on a low gravity planet like minmus and expect it to behave like a car. you accelerate slowly, you turn slowly, and you decelerate even more slowly. driving rovers on different planets is a very different experience.

 

minmus rover: gravity is not pushing your rover down enough to get friction. it's normal. just do things more slowly, you'll be able to pick up speed.

mun rover: again no bug, in this case reaction wheels are responsible. Your crew pod has some pretty strong reaction wheels, and they have the same commands as the wheels. so when you push w, the wheels try to move forward, and the reaction wheels try to point the vehicle downward. but you can manually deactivate the reaction wheels by right-clicking on the crew pod, you'll find an option to deactivate them

On duna it does not happen because on duna the local gravity is strong enough that your reaction wheels cannot lift the rover.

 

Thanks for the reply. While I can agree to 100% of what you said, it's not really the case here. I have hundreds of hours in the game and I am well aware of all the things you mentioned. I demonstrated in the Mun video where I deactivated and activated the reaction wheels and it acts to what a vessel would in a vacuum. Yes, the reaction wheels affect the vessel noticeably especially in stabilization but the reaction wheels on the Lander Can Mk2 is not that strong to flip the whole thing. Not from a fixed position and then applying a slight acceleration, even in low gravity.

The rover in the Mun video is something I quickly made to demonstrate the issue. I have rovers on Mun that are fairly lighter using the same Lander Can Mk2 which has the same reactions wheels and all and it doesn't work that way. Now every rover I have on all celestial bodies have the issue so I don't think it's because of how I build or use them.

In the Duna video, that was prior the issue has surfaced. 

 

I really appreciate your response, man. Thank you so much. Hope there's another way to fix this. 

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I think I’ve encountered a similar issue when testing my rovers in 1.11.2.  On landing, the rovers slid sideways, disregarding wheel input.
 

Even though the wheels are sliding, they do exert a little bit of force. I found that if you can halt the rover and enter (non-physical) time warp, it usually works after that.

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, AlpacaMall said:

I think I’ve encountered a similar issue when testing my rovers in 1.11.2.  On landing, the rovers slid sideways, disregarding wheel input.
 

Even though the wheels are sliding, they do exert a little bit of force. I found that if you can halt the rover and enter (non-physical) time warp, it usually works after that.

Yeah I know right. It seems as if the surface was made ice. I think that's the best representation as to how slippery the surface is and how it takes a substantial force to accelerate regardless of the celestial body you're on. 

Thanks so much for your input man really appreciate it.

Edited by Already_Dead
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First off, great documentation of the problem.

I noticed you have Friction Control set to Auto. It's almost always beneficial to set those manually, because otherwise they auto-adapt on the fly--When your rover starts getting sideways, it's going to want to continue, because the friction gets automatically lowered with the angle of the drift. It's supposed to prevent overtipping, but in practice it just makes driving "icy".

For rovers I like to use friction 1.7 in the front and 2.3 in the back, although experimentation is very worthwhile. I do it that way so that the rover understeers a bit, and is less prone to tipping.

I also turn Traction Control off completely because it impacts hill-climbing ability. For really good hill-climbing, I'll also temporarily max out the friction on all the wheels.

You can also set all your reaction wheels to "SAS only". This way, the reaction wheels just attempt to hold the direction without responding to your steering and acceleration inputs.

You probably know most of this already, but I like to leave breadcrumbs for anyone else with a similar problem.

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6 minutes ago, FleshJeb said:

First off, great documentation of the problem.

I noticed you have Friction Control set to Auto. It's almost always beneficial to set those manually, because otherwise they auto-adapt on the fly--When your rover starts getting sideways, it's going to want to continue, because the friction gets automatically lowered with the angle of the drift. It's supposed to prevent overtipping, but in practice it just makes driving "icy".

For rovers I like to use friction 1.7 in the front and 2.3 in the back, although experimentation is very worthwhile. I do it that way so that the rover understeers a bit, and is less prone to tipping.

I also turn Traction Control off completely because it impacts hill-climbing ability. For really good hill-climbing, I'll also temporarily max out the friction on all the wheels.

You can also set all your reaction wheels to "SAS only". This way, the reaction wheels just attempt to hold the direction without responding to your steering and acceleration inputs.

You probably know most of this already, but I like to leave breadcrumbs for anyone else with a similar problem.

Thanks man really appreciate your informative input. I will go ahead and try the settings you mentioned. Threads like these are super helpful. I've had a fair share of glitches and noob issues back then but I managed to fix everything thanks to the awesome and helpful community we have here in KSP. 

Btw, have you noticed any changes specifically with your rovers ever since the 1.12 update rolled out? I'm aware that they've updated the wheels system. Part of me wants to believe that these 'issues' could be part of the changes on the update. But I swear, just last week this wasn't the case and I got the update the day it was released. With hundreds of hours in this game, you can know for sure when something's out of the ordinary. And if it really is part of the update, then the changes were so freaking drastic that it made my rovers almost inoperable. Unless it's the same case with everyone, I still believe this is a serious glitch.

Looking forward to hear your thoughts, man. Have a good one.

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4 minutes ago, Already_Dead said:

Btw, have you noticed any changes specifically with your rovers ever since the 1.12 update rolled out?

Sorry, I don't know. I haven't tried anything above 1.8.1, and I've quit playing after 8 years due to all the bugs and changes in basic mechanics. If I do start up again, I'll probably stick to 1.7.3 or 1.3.1.

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There's a definite problem with wheels and landing legs sliding. Friction setting isn't high enough. Easily fixed with manually setting friction for wheels but the legs dont have a friction setting so that might not be fixable until...its fixed.

Bug #28108: Wheel's friction is too low on certain planets and crafts that didnt slide in 1.11 do slide in 1.12 - Kerbal Space Program - Squad Bugtracker

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8 hours ago, Anth12 said:

There's a definite problem with wheels and landing legs sliding. Friction setting isn't high enough. Easily fixed with manually setting friction for wheels but the legs dont have a friction setting so that might not be fixable until...its fixed.

Bug #28108: Wheel's friction is too low on certain planets and crafts that didnt slide in 1.11 do slide in 1.12 - Kerbal Space Program - Squad Bugtracker

Hey man thanks for your comment. Just from the title of the link you sent, I think that's exactly what I am looking for. However, the page requires me to login.  Is it possible for you to send like a public link or some sort? Thank you in advance man really looking forward to seeing that link. Have a great day!

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1 hour ago, Anth12 said:

Registration is the only way now to see public bug reports. Squad have been tightening up security with the bug tracker for reasons I cant talk about.

 

Thanks man I'll go try and register. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks so much for the help.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Anth12 said:

Registration is the only way now to see public bug reports. Squad have been tightening up security with the bug tracker for reasons I cant talk about.

 

I just checked the link. That's exactly what I was talking about. A lot of people think it's just something about the vessel and it's wheel settings. I freaking know there's something really wrong. I'm an experienced gamer but haven't really touched any of the back end stuff of my games unless necessary. How do I change the values in my game? And is the .sfs file something that I can drag in a folder or is it like a reference I can use to manually input? Thanks again man really really appreciate your expertise on this matter.

Edited by Already_Dead
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Its definitely a problem

I tested it in 1.11.2, then I took that save into 1.12.1 and the rovers I tested instantly started sliding down the hill on all planets except for minmus.

The only way to counter it for wheels currently is to up the friction until the rover/craft stops sliding.

sfs files are save files, the persistent file is also a sfs file.

If you are talking about 1121 Friction Bug.sfs that is in my bug report, create a new save, then put the file into the same folder as that save (where persistent.sfs is) then load it from the main menu

7wpOemd.pnggxkiju2.pngzBvSrsO.png

Better to do this after the craft is 'launched' but you get the idea

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As Anth12 said, it's entirely a matter of your friction settings on low gravity worlds. Yes, in low gravity you have low traction, and your rovers will tend to slide around.

As far as slow rotations of landed craft go, that's an effect I call "microbouncing" and is a fundamental feature of the way the Unity game engine models collisions (resting on the surface of a CB is a neverending sequence of collisions).

 

 

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1 hour ago, Anth12 said:

Its definitely a problem

I tested it in 1.11.2, then I took that save into 1.12.1 and the rovers I tested instantly started sliding down the hill on all planets except for minmus.

The only way to counter it for wheels currently is to up the friction until the rover/craft stops sliding.

sfs files are save files, the persistent file is also a sfs file.

If you are talking about 1121 Friction Bug.sfs that is in my bug report, create a new save, then put the file into the same folder as that save (where persistent.sfs is) then load it from the main menu

7wpOemd.pnggxkiju2.pngzBvSrsO.png

Better to do this after the craft is 'launched' but you get the idea

Thanks man. Yeah bumping up the friction until it feels kinda normal is what I did. Still worse than 1.11.2 but I'll take what I can get at the moment.

Do CBs have friction on their surface? I was wondering if there's a way to tweak the values if there is. As the problem could be the wheel friction, or the celestial bodies' friction (if there is), or both.

Also, given that the 1.12 is the last major update, I know they'll still do hotfixes and all but what's the best chance of this issue getting fixed if there's not enough people complaining?

28 minutes ago, bewing said:

As Anth12 said, it's entirely a matter of your friction settings on low gravity worlds. Yes, in low gravity you have low traction, and your rovers will tend to slide around.

As far as slow rotations of landed craft go, that's an effect I call "microbouncing" and is a fundamental feature of the way the Unity game engine models collisions (resting on the surface of a CB is a neverending sequence of collisions).

 

 

Totally makes sense man thanks for your input. It's just how they are programmed and those minor tweaks go a long way in the case of 1.12. Have you been experiencing the same issue?

I was actually puzzled that the update was almost months out and no one is complaining about it and it's not even like a subtle issue that's easy to miss. That's why I thought I have an isolated case, but Anth12 here, as a reliable person in the community, validated it. So, I guess I can say it's a legit issue.

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On 7/16/2021 at 3:36 AM, Already_Dead said:

I was actually puzzled that the update was almost months out and no one is complaining about it and it's not even like a subtle issue that's easy to miss. That's why I thought I have an isolated case, but Anth12 here, as a reliable person in the community, validated it. So, I guess I can say it's a legit issue.

Oh there was definitely some discussion about it. It's absolutely a problem, especially with the legs since you can't tweak them like the wheels.

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55 minutes ago, herbal space program said:

Oh there was definitely some discussion about it. It's absolutely a problem, especially with the legs since you can't tweak them like the wheels.

If you talking about friction control override options for landing legs, there's a small temporary fix for them.

Don't ask me why they put the default value as False... :rolleyes:

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