Please do not support Xbox 1 and PS4

[Guest The Doodling Astronaut]

It has been coming more and more of a concern in recent months that it feels like PD and Intercept Games are still planning for a full released of KSP 2 on Xbox 1 and PS4. This has me very concerned,  I understand that there are KSP players on Console that cannot get the newer generation of consoles. But making a game expected to release in 2022 be able to run on 2013 specs feels like the game is unnecessarily being nerfed.

I could see the reason why they are doing it is because of business, but it feels like this could possibly lead to a bunch of disappointed KSP 2 console players disappointed that their new copy of a long waited game doesn't run smoothly on a near-decade old hardware

[tg626]

If it's done right, at worst it should run smoothly, but not look as nice. If done well, only those on older systems will experience "not look as nice" while bleeding edge early adopters will get all the eye candy, which of course is the most important part of any good game.

[Stratennotblitz]

[Snip]

ksp can run on ps4/xbox consoles fully well, it runs un my damn Mac laptop, the real question here is wether you wanna gatekeep pc games so you can get them earlier on and feel special, simple as that

ps4 and xbox are more powerful than even some gaming computers, and the way ksp 2 is built should make it easy, especially with the whole build made around efficiency 

On 8/25/2021 at 8:29 AM, The Doodling Astronaut said:

It has been coming more and more of a concern in recent months that it feels like PD and Intercept Games are still planning for a full released of KSP 2 on Xbox 1 and PS4. This has me very concerned,  I understand that there are KSP players on Console that cannot get the newer generation of consoles. But making a game expected to release in 2022 be able to run on 2013 specs feels like the game is unnecessarily being nerfed.

I could see the reason why they are doing it is because of business, but it feels like this could possibly lead to a bunch of disappointed KSP 2 console players disappointed that their new copy of a long waited game doesn't run smoothly on a near-decade old hardware

ps4 and xbox can run games well, especially ps4, not to mention they got upgrades over the years, the reason why ksp is so bad on console is because it wasn't meant to be on it,  especially with the kraken (which is a bug), a proof that the game doesn't use traditional computing methods on it's engine, I don't think you know enough about ps4/xbox  architecture to say this, not to mention the devs haven't even mentioned console and Mac, but then again, the game has been in development for some time now, I'm sure the devs can import this into less than traditional gaming setups 

Edited August 29, 2021 by James Kerman
Redacted by a moderator

[mcwaffles2003]

On 8/24/2021 at 8:47 PM, tg626 said:

If it's done right, at worst it should run smoothly, but not look as nice. 

I believe you mean to say:

"If it's done right, at best..."

This assumes the game was bottlenecked by graphics, which it was not. The Xbox 1 has a 1.75GHz processor and the PS4 has a 2.1 GHz processor...

That is not sufficient for simulating 1000+ part rigid body dynamics simulations in real time.

The graphics shown for KSP 2 are a vast improvement over KSP 1 but are comparatively simple in relation to most games made nowadays.

Edited August 29, 2021 by mcwaffles2003

[Kapitalizing Every Word]

On 8/24/2021 at 9:29 PM, The Doodling Astronaut said:

But making a game expected to release in 2022 be able to run on 2013 specs feels like the game is unnecessarily being nerfed.

Maybe I could run it on my computer if so 
and I want that to happen

[Deddly]

2 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

The Xbox 1 has a 1.75GHz processor and the PS4 has a 2.1 GHz processor...

It's true that these machines are not great in single-core performance, which is what KSP 1 is reliant on, but have you checked the benchmarks? What kind of CPU are these machines using? How do they perform? GHz is a meaningless comparison unless you are comparing exactly the same CPU architecture and generation. E.g. even the slowest GHz latest generation Intel CPUs far outperform a Pentium 4 at 4 GHz. Pentium 4 at 4 GHz is more powerful than a Pentium 4 at 3 GHz, and a 4 GHz 11th generation i3 is more powerful than a 1.7 GHz 11th generation i3. But a 1.7 GHz 11th generation i3 will wipe the floor with that Pentium 4, even if you overclock the Pentium to 6 GHz. 

I know that none of the consoles use these CPUs, I'm just illustrating the point - basically, ignore the GHz number. 

[Guest The Doodling Astronaut]

8 hours ago, Stratennotblitz said:

[Snip]

ksp can run on ps4/xbox consoles fully well, ...

ps4 and xbox are more powerful than even some gaming computers, and the way ksp 2 is built should make it easy, especially with the whole build made around efficiency 

... I don't think you know enough about ps4/xbox  architecture to say this, not to mention the devs haven't even mentioned console and Mac, but then again, the game has been in development for some time now, I'm sure the devs can import this into less than traditional gaming setups 

The main flaw isn't that some PS4s and Xboxs are more powerful than some gaming computers. Which yes, some of them are. It's just the whole range of PS4 and Xbox one is

Take the earliest specs of Xbox one and PS4, I have a business computer from 2014 that is more powerful than a PS4 or Xbox one (but I did upgrade the ram and storage. Which beforehand was about the same as Xbox One and PS4.)  

Yeah sure it's playable on an Xbox One X or PS4 Pro. But what about consoles beforehand? This is kinda similar to the Minecraft problem over the past few years where certain platforms had to be dropped just because they just couldn't meet up with the specs. I feel like something similar is gonna happen here.

I feel like Xbox/PS4 support as this point is fully business motivated and nothing else.

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, The Doodling Astronaut said:

feel like Xbox/PS4 support as this point is fully business motivated and nothing else.

It always was

[The Aziz]

 

[mcwaffles2003]

6 hours ago, Deddly said:

It's true that these machines are not great in single-core performance, which is what KSP 1 is reliant on, but have you checked the benchmarks? What kind of CPU are these machines using? How do they perform? GHz is a meaningless comparison unless you are comparing exactly the same CPU architecture and generation. E.g. even the slowest GHz latest generation Intel CPUs far outperform a Pentium 4 at 4 GHz. Pentium 4 at 4 GHz is more powerful than a Pentium 4 at 3 GHz, and a 4 GHz 11th generation i3 is more powerful than a 1.7 GHz 11th generation i3. But a 1.7 GHz 11th generation i3 will wipe the floor with that Pentium 4, even if you overclock the Pentium to 6 GHz. 

I know that none of the consoles use these CPUs, I'm just illustrating the point - basically, ignore the GHz number. 

Dude, they're 2013 processors, I doubt their IPC is anywhere near more modern processors and to say "GHz is a meaningless comparison" is going a bit far when theyre' running around 2GHz. Not to mention the processors in the consoles came out when the pentium 4 was still being released.

[Deddly]

9 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Dude, they're 2013 processors, I doubt their IPC is anywhere near more modern processors and to say "GHz is a meaningless comparison" is going a bit far when theyre' running around 2GHz. Not to mention the processors in the consoles came out when the pentium 4 was still being released.

As I said, an old 2GHz processor will be more than likely woefully underpowered compared with a modern 2GHz processor. Nobody is saying that these devices have ever been powerhouses, I was just saying that GHz is a meaningless comparison, which it is. 

For example, I used to have an Amiga using a Motorola 68030 @ 50MHz and another running a Motorola 68040 @ 25 MHz. Guess which one was faster? The 25MHz one was so much faster it was like being in a different world - even though it had half the clock speed. 

So... 2013 consoles are not super powerful, no. But the GHz number is completely misleading. Ignore the number. Are they powerful enough to run KSP2? Well, KSP2 is supposed to use resources more efficiently, so who knows? I would imagine the devs know. If they can get it running on lower-powered devices, that's great because it will make the game available to so many more people - both console users and people stuck on older hardware or who only have a laptop to run it on. 

[mcwaffles2003]

1 hour ago, Deddly said:

As I said, an old 2GHz processor will be more than likely woefully underpowered compared with a modern 2GHz processor. Nobody is saying that these devices have ever been powerhouses, I was just saying that GHz is a meaningless comparison, which it is. 

For example, I used to have an Amiga using a Motorola 68030 @ 50MHz and another running a Motorola 68040 @ 25 MHz. Guess which one was faster? The 25MHz one was so much faster it was like being in a different world - even though it had half the clock speed. 

So... 2013 consoles are not super powerful, no. But the GHz number is completely misleading. Ignore the number. Are they powerful enough to run KSP2? Well, KSP2 is supposed to use resources more efficiently, so who knows? I would imagine the devs know. If they can get it running on lower-powered devices, that's great because it will make the game available to so many more people - both console users and people stuck on older hardware or who only have a laptop to run it on. 

 

I get that GHz isn't everything but to say it's a "meaningless comparison" is a bit beyond the pale. Most things could be considered as much by that logic with a disregard of context like processor generation. For instance, saying one processor is "faster than another requires the context of what it is being used for. We could argue about how many cores one processor has compared to another but the point would be moot if the subject was a single thread process...

The overall point still stands, old gen consoles have the power, in general, of the midgrade computers that were in use when KSP 1 released.

And if the devices aren't powerful enough we get to watch the CP2077 fiasco again as well as they games release is delayed because resources are being diverted to porting to more consoles and some features may be excluded as they may be more resource hungry. I get that the devs know what is best but none of us are conversing with the knowledge of the devs, the promise to be old gen compatible was made before the games scope was broadened, and the release date has been pushed back so far that there's little point in continuing to prioritize old consoles as newer consoles take up a greater share of the market. 

I'm just hoping the game isn't handicapped for the sake of old hardware since I haven't bothered with a console since the Xbox 360 and I'm hoping the game is ready to stay relevant for a decade.

Edited August 30, 2021 by mcwaffles2003

[The Aziz]

1 hour ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

And if the devices aren't powerful enough we get to watch the CP2077 fiasco again

I love when people use Cyberpunk in conversations like this, as it's literally the worst example there is, because the game is a overhyped glitchy bugfest.

Let me give you another example, a game made by competent devs, properly tested and released on time. The year 2019. Looks incredible, super detailed, works flawlessly on base PS4 in 30 frames, as designed to keep the game running stable. Half a year later it was introduced to pc. Want to know the minimum requirements? 

Intel® Core™ i5-3470 or AMD Ryzen™ 3 1200, 8 GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 3 GB or AMD Radeon™ RX 560 4 GB

Gets better of you want to meet recommended requirements, because it says i7 of the same generation.

Now how the hardware mentioned above is similar to what you can find inside the last gen consoles?

New games on old consoles work well because they're built to work on exactly one kind of software running on one kind of hardware. There's no compatibility issues, making sure it works on everything from Windows 7 to 11, AMD or Intel (if they need different instructions or whatever) etc.

Edited August 30, 2021 by The Aziz

[Deddly]

I would also say that how well it works is much more dependent on how well it is made rather than how powerful the device is. Just look at the first release of KSP on console by Flying Tiger and compare it with the re-release by Blitworks. Night and day when comparing the performance they got out of it. 

[mcwaffles2003]

Hey, if they port it to the old consoles and it goes well, then great job. I'm just hoping the game isn't handicapped in scope just so it can perform on old hardware.

To bring data into the discussion here is a link comparing the Ryzen 5 3600, a modern midgrade CPU, and the PS4 Pro's AMD Neo processor: Link

The 3600 shows about 4x the performance of the AMD Neo in the single thread benchmarks.

 

Also @The Aziz, not trying to argue or "gotcha" with this, but what game are you talking about? I assume its not titled "The year 2019."

Also, don't pretty much all console -> PC ports computationally perform well? I know some that didn't control well, like the original dark souls PC port, but this is a PC game being ported to console, going from stronger hardware to weaker hardware, as opposed to the other way around.

Once again though, if the devs port it to old consoles and it still works well then kudos, I just hope it doesn't mean limiting the scope on the PC version. I'm just hoping for KSP 2 to remain relevant through 2030 and hoping it doesn't get held back.

[PlutoISaPlanet]

If it is done right it should absolutely be released on all possible platforms. If it functions like CyberPunk than it should obviously not be released on X Box. I have been concerned about the reality of ksp 2 on last gen consoles, but if it works it works.

[Guest The Doodling Astronaut]

25 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Hey, if they port it to the old consoles and it goes well, then great job. I'm just hoping the game isn't handicapped in scope just so it can perform on old hardware.

Once again though, if the devs port it to old consoles and it still works well then kudos, I just hope it doesn't mean limiting the scope on the PC version. I'm just hoping for KSP 2 to remain relevant through 2030 and hoping it doesn't get held back.

This is my main concern is that we aren’t going to get a better looking  game because ksp 2 gets possibly handicapped

[PlutoISaPlanet]

1 minute ago, The Doodling Astronaut said:

This is my main concern is that we aren’t going to get a better looking  game because ksp 2 gets possibly handicapped

Oh ok.

I would think like all most games ksp would have sliders for all facets of the game: graphics, lighting, performance, etc. The PC version would have the best sliders, while the console version would have lower sliders.

[The Aziz]

21 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

what game are you talking about? I assume its not titled "The year 2019."

Death Stranding. With the year I tried to point out that even today there are new games, full of content, beautifully crafted, and despite being launched on 7 year old tech,  run well and compete with top "pc exclusives"

35 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Also, don't pretty much all console -> PC ports computationally perform well?

Yes, but don't they appear like they need a bit more processing power to work on pc?

Also,  because I got lost in details, do we know if we're getting a port or is the console edition being developed in parallel to pc version?

[mcwaffles2003]

19 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Death Stranding. With the year I tried to point out that even today there are new games, full of content, beautifully crafted, and despite being launched on 7 year old tech,  run well and compete with top "pc exclusives"

I hear you and I have no doubt KSP 2 could be visibly beautiful on consol. But KSP is far from the average game with how insanely CPU bottlenecked it is.

19 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Yes, but don't they appear like they need a bit more processing power to work on pc?

I agree they seem more processing hungry on PC to deal with all the under the hood BS they needed to make it port but as the link I put up shows, PCs have far more than the necessary overhead to take that on.

19 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Also,  because I got lost in details, do we know if we're getting a port or is the console edition being developed in parallel to pc version?

I'm honestly not sure, I'm operating on assumption. But I'd imagine to dev the 2 in parallel would take significantly more resources.

[Deddly]

I seem to recall something about KSP2 having improved multi-core support. That would help considerably if I remember correctly. 

[mcwaffles2003]

1 hour ago, Deddly said:

I seem to recall something about KSP2 having improved multi-core support. That would help considerably if I remember correctly. 

I heard it would continue being single thread for all the RBD, hence a lot of my skepticism when talking about old consoles. I know @K^2 is pretty knowledgeable on this subject matter, maybe he might have some insight on the subject?

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

They probably have postponed the release till late 2022 to let XB1 and PS4 pass away and thus avoid the need to support them, lol.

 

[The Aziz]

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

  Hide contents

They probably have postponed the release till late 2022 to let XB1 and PS4 pass away and thus avoid the need to support them, lol.

 

And you believe that by 2022 the shortage of hardware will end? Even Sony said they will support the old gen at least until that year. The PS4/XB1 market is too big for Intercept/TakeTwo to miss such opportunity.

[kerbiloid]

49 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

And you believe that by 2022 the shortage of hardware will end? Even Sony said they will support the old gen at least until that year.

I was obviously joking, but now idk...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4

Quote

Its successor, the PlayStation 5, was released in November 2020, with Sony discontinuing in Japan all PlayStation 4 models except the Slim version in January 2021, while the standard PS4 is still being produced in western markets following their statement of 3-year support of PS4.

2020+3 = 2023