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[v1.0.0] The Skyhawk Science System - a new BDB-focused tech tree


CessnaSkyhawk
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23 hours ago, CessnaSkyhawk said:

Hey everyone! I've already started planning out how science is going to be balanced, and I've got a question for everyone. Here's the current set up for science cost per tier, along side what major milestones/techs come with each tier. What do you all think about this balance setup? Does it seem reasonable? I do plan on modifying the costs of some experiments, especially earlier in the tree, to make sure stuff isn't too grindy, but also not too easy.

Tier Science Cost Important Milestones/Unlocks 
1 5 Space-Capable Sounding Rockets
2 10 Basic Orbital Spaceflight (Tiny Sputnik/Explorer 1 style probes)
3 20 Improved Orbital Spaceflight (Multipart, slightly larger satellites)
4 35 Mun/Minmus Probes
5 50 Interplanetary Flybys, Unmanned Mun/Minmus Landers, Manned Spaceflight
6 75 Space Stations, Ion Propulsion
7 100 Rudimentary Manned Mun/Minmus Landings (Think Gemini Lander concepts)
8 200 NTRs, serious Mun/Minmus Landings (Apollo)
9 400 Surface Bases, ISRU, Interplanetary Manned Spaceflight
10 800 Plasma Propulsion
11 1200  
12 1600 End of all tech branches aside from Fusion and Plasma/Antimatter, so tech costs increase to compensate
13 2400 Fusion Power/Reactors
14 3600 Antimatter
15 4300  
16 5000  
17 10000 FTL Tech

EDIT - Changed tier values slightly based on comment two below this one.

 

 

I think a decent amount of us are here because of your thoughtful BDB integration. Would you mind. making one of these charts but where each "program" would fall. e.g. Vanguard, MOL, Apollo, Atlas V, etc.

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On 11/8/2021 at 7:58 PM, CessnaSkyhawk said:

Hey everyone! I've already started planning out how science is going to be balanced, and I've got a question for everyone. Here's the current set up for science cost per tier, along side what major milestones/techs come with each tier. What do you all think about this balance setup? Does it seem reasonable? I do plan on modifying the costs of some experiments, especially earlier in the tree, to make sure stuff isn't too grindy, but also not too easy.

Tier Science Cost Important Milestones/Unlocks 
1 5 Space-Capable Sounding Rockets
2 10 Basic Orbital Spaceflight (Tiny Sputnik/Explorer 1 style probes)
3 20 Improved Orbital Spaceflight (Multipart, slightly larger satellites)
4 35 Mun/Minmus Probes
5 50 Interplanetary Flybys, Unmanned Mun/Minmus Landers, Manned Spaceflight
6 75 Space Stations, Ion Propulsion
7 100 Rudimentary Manned Mun/Minmus Landings (Think Gemini Lander concepts)
8 200 NTRs, serious Mun/Minmus Landings (Apollo)
9 400 Surface Bases, ISRU, Interplanetary Manned Spaceflight
10 800 Plasma Propulsion
11 1200  
12 1600 End of all tech branches aside from Fusion and Plasma/Antimatter, so tech costs increase to compensate
13 2400 Fusion Power/Reactors
14 3600 Antimatter
15 4300  
16 5000  
17 10000 FTL Tech

EDIT - Changed tier values slightly based on comment two below this one.

 

 

I would say that NTRs should come after Apollo. I know that they’re around the same timeframe, but it makes more sense progression-wise. 
 

It should go with the surface base/long-term habitation tech level as it would be along the lines of a reusable tug or something. 

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2 hours ago, SpaceFace545 said:

I think a decent amount of us are here because of your thoughtful BDB integration. Would you mind. making one of these charts but where each "program" would fall. e.g. Vanguard, MOL, Apollo, Atlas V, etc.

Sure - I'll see if I can throw something together either tonight or tomorrow, as I might use that as a chance to make an updated full tree image as well...

22 minutes ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

I would say that NTRs should come after Apollo. I know that they’re around the same timeframe, but it makes more sense progression-wise. 
 

It should go with the surface base/long-term habitation tech level as it would be along the lines of a reusable tug or something. 

Fair enough - I'll take a peek at it and think about what I should do.  The one thing I will note is that the Apollo tier ntr tech only gives you the two weakest ntrs (stock's Nerv and MissingHistory's Candle), and you don't really start getting into the more useful ones till a tier or two further down.

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I always thought the first couple of nodes in any tech tree are way too easy to achieve, provided there's at least 2 experiments in the start node and then a whole lot more in the next one as is common.

But at the same time, getting to the later nodes becomes a real chore, because how many players stick around in career long enough to land multiple missions on each body's biome to grind enough science to reach the future tech nodes?

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4 hours ago, Morphisor said:

I always thought the first couple of nodes in any tech tree are way too easy to achieve, provided there's at least 2 experiments in the start node and then a whole lot more in the next one as is common.

But at the same time, getting to the later nodes becomes a real chore, because how many players stick around in career long enough to land multiple missions on each body's biome to grind enough science to reach the future tech nodes?

That’s the balance I’m trying to strike. I want there to be reasons for early game operations in LKO (plus this also gives a lot of earlier BDB satellites a use case), but at the same time I don’t want to make it too much of a grind that it’s just a huge hassle. 

1 hour ago, Bigant said:

Is Kerbalism something your pondering supporting? adds to the realistic ish... playthrough. 

100% planning Kerbalism support. I just want to finish stock science system first so I have a baseline for it. 

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23 minutes ago, CessnaSkyhawk said:

That’s the balance I’m trying to strike. I want there to be reasons for early game operations in LKO (plus this also gives a lot of earlier BDB satellites a use case), but at the same time I don’t want to make it too much of a grind that it’s just a huge hassle. 

100% planning Kerbalism support. I just want to finish stock science system first so I have a baseline for it. 

thats great! sounds like im going to spend many hours killing i mean testing kerbals...

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5 hours ago, CessnaSkyhawk said:

That’s the balance I’m trying to strike. I want there to be reasons for early game operations in LKO (plus this also gives a lot of earlier BDB satellites a use case), but at the same time I don’t want to make it too much of a grind that it’s just a huge hassle. 

100% planning Kerbalism support. I just want to finish stock science system first so I have a baseline for it. 

I think what might work here - And others should correct me if this is not the great idea I think it is - But I would consider increasing the science needed for the first say 7 nodes, and reduce the requirements after that to get a bit flatter progression curve.

The first node at 5 science is (almost) achieved by even just standing on the launch pad, personally I think it should require more effort. But I admit maybe that's not for everyone.

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1 hour ago, Morphisor said:

I think what might work here - And others should correct me if this is not the great idea I think it is - But I would consider increasing the science needed for the first say 7 nodes, and reduce the requirements after that to get a bit flatter progression curve.

The first node at 5 science is (almost) achieved by even just standing on the launch pad, personally I think it should require more effort. But I admit maybe that's not for everyone.

I'm planning to rebalance experiments somewhat to avoid that kind of scenario, but I'm still just working out the values. At first, the only experiment available will be a generic "telemetry report" which gives just enough science to unlock the tier 1 nodes with the parts you start with, and then more stuff will start unlocking from there. I'm going to try and sit down later this week and do some spreadsheet stuff to try and get it figured out.

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@SpaceFace545 Here's a redone chart with my updated science values, and IRL rocket equivalents to each tier. I've also included a picture of the current tech tree, with each category marked so everyone can get a better idea of how its all spread out. According to my calculations, the total cost to unlock the entire tree is around 200k science points, which puts it in-between CTT and KTT in regards to total cost.

Tier Science Cost Important Milestones/Unlocks 
1 1 Space-Capable Sounding Rockets
2 5 Vanguard, Redstone/Juno 1, SCOUT, Explorer 1
3 12 Pioneer Moon Missions, TIROS, Relay/Telstar, Transit, Keyhole, Juno II, Thor, Agena
4 35 Ranger Missions, Thor-Delta, Atlas, Titan I, Nimbus
5 70 Mercury-Redstone & Mercury-Atlas, Titan II, Mariner 1/2, Surveyor, Delta II, Centaur, Atlas CELV, RTGs
6 140 Gemini, Titan III, Delta III, Mariner 6/7, Pioneer 10, Atlas SLV, Ion Thrusters
7 280 Titan IV, Gemini Lander, Stock Mk1 Lander, Big G, GATV, Saturn I, Mariner 10, Centaur T
8 560 First NTRs, Experimental Nuclear Reactors, Saturn V, Apollo 11, Skylab, Space Shuttle, Cassini, Atlas V, Delta IV
9 840 Improved Saturn Variants, Venus Flyby, Spacelab, Space Launch System, Vulcan, Falcon 9/Heavy, Juno, New Horizons, ISRU, Planetary Bases, SSTO/Dual-Mode Engines
10 1260 New Glenn, Starship, NFP Plasma
11 1575  
12 1970 End of all tech branches aside from Fusion and Plasma/Antimatter, so tech costs increase to compensate
13 3790 Fusion Power/Reactors
14 4735 Antimatter Propulsion
15 5920  
16 7500  
17 5000 FTL Tech

 

nqg4Nbo.png

 

 

 

 

Edited by CessnaSkyhawk
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Love the tech tree! Particularly the idea that similar technology are all easy to find, and and grouped like that. With some tech trees, I spend a while trying to work out where the science or thing X might be (using the handy search bar), this is a lot easier to work out.

I'm may well install this on a new set of mods I'm slowly building, it's not a career play yet. I'm trying out various things to see how they all fit together.

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1 hour ago, 610yesnolovely said:

Love the tech tree! Particularly the idea that similar technology are all easy to find, and and grouped like that. With some tech trees, I spend a while trying to work out where the science or thing X might be (using the handy search bar), this is a lot easier to work out.

I'm may well install this on a new set of mods I'm slowly building, it's not a career play yet. I'm trying out various things to see how they all fit together.

Glad to hear it. I’m hoping to have the first gameplay ready beta out by the end of the month, but we will see what happens :)

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2 hours ago, CessnaSkyhawk said:

@SpaceFace545 Here's a redone chart with my updated science values, and IRL rocket equivalents to each tier. I've also included a picture of the current tech tree, with each category marked so everyone can get a better idea of how its all spread out. According to my calculations, the total cost to unlock the entire tree is around 200k science points, which puts it in-between CTT and KTT in regards to total cost.

Tier Science Cost Important Milestones/Unlocks 
1 1 Space-Capable Sounding Rockets
2 5 Vanguard, Redstone/Juno 1, SCOUT, Explorer 1
3 12 Pioneer Moon Missions, TIROS, Relay/Telstar, Transit, Keyhole, Juno II, Thor, Agena
4 35 Ranger Missions, Thor-Delta, Atlas, Titan I, Nimbus
5 70 Mercury-Redstone & Mercury-Atlas, Titan II, Mariner 1/2, Surveyor, Delta II, Centaur, Atlas CELV, RTGs
6 140 Gemini, Titan III, Delta III, Mariner 6/7, Pioneer 10, Atlas SLV, Ion Thrusters
7 280 Titan IV, Gemini Lander, Stock Mk1 Lander, Big G, GATV, Saturn I, Mariner 10, Centaur T
8 560 First NTRs, Experimental Nuclear Reactors, Saturn V, Apollo 11, Skylab, Space Shuttle, Cassini, Atlas V, Delta IV
9 840 Improved Saturn Variants, Venus Flyby, Spacelab, Space Launch System, Vulcan, Falcon 9/Heavy, Juno, New Horizons, ISRU, Planetary Bases, SSTO/Dual-Mode Engines
10 1260 New Glenn, Starship, NFP Plasma
11 1575  
12 1970 End of all tech branches aside from Fusion and Plasma/Antimatter, so tech costs increase to compensate
13 3790 Fusion Power/Reactors
14 4735 Antimatter Propulsion
15 5920  
16 7500  
17 5000 FTL Tech

 

nqg4Nbo.png

 

 

 

 

Is it 5 science points for the whole vanguards and redstones? If so personally I would change that to be higher, the early science unlocks are extremely easy to get and basically makes the suborbital part of the space program a single launch

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8 hours ago, Beccab said:

Is it 5 science points for the whole vanguards and redstones? If so personally I would change that to be higher, the early science unlocks are extremely easy to get and basically makes the suborbital part of the space program a single launch

No, it’s five points per tech, and there are 14 tier 2 techs total, so it’s 70 total. 

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I love what your doing to try and integrate more fuels but the system just doesn't work that cleanly, not your fault, more fuels has the same issue. The major conflict is RCS fuels and tank switches especially in purpose made upper stage tanks where they have tankage for fuel and mono prop. Also an issue when other service modules have lh2 and oxygen for fuel cells. The only way I see to work through this is to give RCS engines fuel switches for different hypergolic and a more in depth real fuels tank system. 

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51 minutes ago, SpaceFace545 said:

I love what your doing to try and integrate more fuels but the system just doesn't work that cleanly, not your fault, more fuels has the same issue. The major conflict is RCS fuels and tank switches especially in purpose made upper stage tanks where they have tankage for fuel and mono prop. Also an issue when other service modules have lh2 and oxygen for fuel cells. The only way I see to work through this is to give RCS engines fuel switches for different hypergolic and a more in depth real fuels tank system. 

Shoot I must have missed that - let me take a peek in a little bit. I think I might know how to fix the first one pretty quickly. For the second, I believe that's just an unfortunate consequence of the Rational Resources fuel cell changes, and should be able to be supplanted by just using one of the other fuel cell modes (hypergolic or hydrolox) instead.

Edited by CessnaSkyhawk
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2 hours ago, CessnaSkyhawk said:

No, it’s five points per tech, and there are 14 tier 2 techs total, so it’s 70 total. 

Tech Level Unlock Nodes Total
1 1 6 6
2 5 14 70
3 12 15 180
4 35 16 560

That did catch me for a while until I remembered how many more nodes there are per tech level compared to normal. A table like this would show how the total cost per tech level goes up quite significantly. Probably better to do it this way that trying to tweak science defs and mods?  Science is hard to balance given all the science mods that could be added, the difficulty settings, planet mods, science tweaks, etc.

Perhaps you have made one already in a spreadsheet, don't want to add any work, building a tech tree is a huge task.

Edited by 610yesnolovely
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1 hour ago, 610yesnolovely said:
Tech Level Unlock Nodes Total
1 1 6 6
2 5 14 70
3 12 15 180
4 35 16 560

That did catch me for a while until I remembered how many more nodes there are per tech level compared to normal. A table like this would show how the total cost per tech level goes up quite significantly. Probably better to do it this way that trying to tweak science defs and mods?  Science is hard to balance given all the science mods that could be added, the difficulty settings, planet mods, science tweaks, etc.

Perhaps you have made one already in a spreadsheet, don't want to add any work, building a tech tree is a huge task.

I do have one, but I forgot to post it because I think I just assumed that the picture of the tree would take care of that. Here's the actual tech chart:

 

Tier Tech Value # of Techs Tier Cost Total Cost
1 1 6 6 6
2 5 14 70 76
3 12 15 180 256
4 35 16 560 816
5 70 19 1330 2146
6 140 23 3220 5366
7 280 23 6440 11806
8 560 22 12320 24126
9 840 26 21840 45966
10 1260 26 32760 78726
11 1575 24 37800 116526
12 1970 11 21670 138196
13 3790 4 15160 153356
14 4735 4 18940 172296
15 5920 2 11840 184136
16 7500 2 15000 199136
17 15000 1 15000 214136
Edited by CessnaSkyhawk
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48 minutes ago, CessnaSkyhawk said:

I do have one, but I forgot to post it because I think I just assumed that the picture of the tree would take care of that. Here's the actual tech chart:

 

Tier Tech Value # of Techs Tier Cost Total Cost
1 1 6 6 6
2 5 14 70 76
3 12 15 180 256
4 35 16 560 816
5 70 19 1330 2146
6 140 23 3220 5366
7 280 23 6440 11806
8 560 22 12320 24126
9 840 26 21840 45966
10 1260 26 32760 78726
11 1575 24 37800 116526
12 1970 11 21670 138196
13 3790 4 15160 153356
14 4735 4 18940 172296
15 5920 2 11840 184136
16 7500 2 15000 199136
17 15000 1 15000 214136

Nice.  From memory Tetrix tops out at 76000, but in recommending playing 50% science I see it as 150k.

Does this mean you get 5 tiers before upgrading R&D and then another 2 tiers before final upgrade?

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I like it!  @Morphisor and I have a similar opinion on early career development.  In a regular CTT career game you unlock the first 3 or 4 tiers so quickly that you end up skipping half the BDB rockets unless you're roleplaying (or following the History of Spaceflight contract pack), even with massively nerfed science gains, which then inevitably makes the late game a dreadful grind.  I'd love to have a tech tree where the early nodes are more expensive and the BDB parts more spread out.  It'd provide more mileage for the early rockets and probes.

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So I tried out the latest from git (09b608ad8), but looks like some UI files are missing, they seem to be refered to in the tech tree, but deleted around the 0.6.0 release. Eg.

[ERR 14:11:52.422] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/spaceplanes/sss_icon_advancedRamjets, which is referred to on line 85 of SkyhawkScienceSystem.cfg - there were a few (in spoiler), and that cascade of errors meant the tech tree couldn't be installed :mellow: - I only had a Start node!

I've not got a huge number of other mods installed, CTT, CRP seem to be the important required mods, but I doubt that's the issue. Perhaps you have those on disk, but they're not added to git, but ignored in gitignore? Or I shouldn't be so brave as to try git at latest revision!

Spoiler

[ERR 14:11:52.422] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/spaceplanes/sss_icon_advancedRamjets

[ERR 14:11:52.437] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/comms/sss_icon_laserLineRelays

[ERR 14:11:52.438] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/comms/sss_icon_quantumCommunication

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[ERR 14:11:52.443] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/control/sss_icon_modernAvionics

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[ERR 14:11:52.444] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/control/sss_icon_exoticControlSystems

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[ERR 14:11:52.518] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: 

[ERR 14:11:52.531] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/spaceStations/sss_icon_orbitalScienceLabs

[ERR 14:11:52.532] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/spaceStations/sss_icon_longTermHabitation

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10 hours ago, theJesuit said:

Nice.  From memory Tetrix tops out at 76000, but in recommending playing 50% science I see it as 150k.

Does this mean you get 5 tiers before upgrading R&D and then another 2 tiers before final upgrade?

Bold of you to assume I've planned that far ahead! ;) I haven't really thought about where the R&D upgrades will fall yet. I'll probably try to do something with custom barn kit though once I've decided where they go.

7 hours ago, Friznit said:

I like it!  @Morphisor and I have a similar opinion on early career development.  In a regular CTT career game you unlock the first 3 or 4 tiers so quickly that you end up skipping half the BDB rockets unless you're roleplaying (or following the History of Spaceflight contract pack), even with massively nerfed science gains, which then inevitably makes the late game a dreadful grind.  I'd love to have a tech tree where the early nodes are more expensive and the BDB parts more spread out.  It'd provide more mileage for the early rockets and probes.

That's what I'm hoping this will do. I'm also planning on adding a few custom experiments for various underutilized BDB probes to encourage launching them, such as say a "Communications Relay Test" on the Telstar/Relay type early communications sats.

5 hours ago, 610yesnolovely said:

So I tried out the latest from git (09b608ad8), but looks like some UI files are missing, they seem to be refered to in the tech tree, but deleted around the 0.6.0 release. Eg.

[ERR 14:11:52.422] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/spaceplanes/sss_icon_advancedRamjets, which is referred to on line 85 of SkyhawkScienceSystem.cfg - there were a few (in spoiler), and that cascade of errors meant the tech tree couldn't be installed :mellow: - I only had a Start node!

I've not got a huge number of other mods installed, CTT, CRP seem to be the important required mods, but I doubt that's the issue. Perhaps you have those on disk, but they're not added to git, but ignored in gitignore? Or I shouldn't be so brave as to try git at latest revision!

  Hide contents

[ERR 14:11:52.422] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/spaceplanes/sss_icon_advancedRamjets

[ERR 14:11:52.437] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/comms/sss_icon_laserLineRelays

[ERR 14:11:52.438] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/comms/sss_icon_quantumCommunication

[ERR 14:11:52.438] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/comms/sss_icon_ansibles

[ERR 14:11:52.439] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/control/sss_icon_spinStabilization

[ERR 14:11:52.440] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/control/sss_icon_upperStageGuidance

[ERR 14:11:52.440] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/control/sss_icon_hydrazineThrusters

[ERR 14:11:52.441] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/control/sss_icon_deepSpaceAvionics

[ERR 14:11:52.441] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/control/sss_icon_hypergolicThrusters

[ERR 14:11:52.442] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/control/sss_icon_integratedAvionicsSystems

[ERR 14:11:52.443] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/control/sss_icon_venorThrusters

[ERR 14:11:52.443] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/control/sss_icon_modernAvionics

[ERR 14:11:52.444] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/control/sss_icon_fullyAutomatedLaunchVehicles

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[ERR 14:11:52.488] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/orion/sss_icon_nuclearPulsePropulsion

[ERR 14:11:52.489] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/orion/sss_icon_advancedNuclearPulsePropulsion

[ERR 14:11:52.512] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/sss_icon_solarSails

[ERR 14:11:52.518] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: 

[ERR 14:11:52.531] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/spaceStations/sss_icon_orbitalScienceLabs

[ERR 14:11:52.532] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/spaceStations/sss_icon_longTermHabitation

[ERR 14:11:52.532] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/spaceStations/sss_icon_largeScaleStationConstruction

[ERR 14:11:52.533] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/spaceStations/sss_icon_orbitalArcologies

[ERR 14:11:52.535] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/science/sss_icon_

[ERR 14:11:52.536] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/science/sss_icon_

[ERR 14:11:52.537] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/science/sss_icon_

[ERR 14:11:52.537] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/science/sss_icon_

[ERR 14:11:52.538] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/science/sss_icon_

[ERR 14:11:52.538] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/science/sss_icon_

[ERR 14:11:52.539] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/science/sss_icon_

[ERR 14:11:52.539] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/science/sss_icon_

[ERR 14:11:52.540] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/science/sss_icon_

[ERR 14:11:52.540] Couldn't find loaded texture at path: SkyhawkScienceSystem/UI/science/sss_icon_


 

Those nodes just don't have icons yet, which is why those errors are occuring. There's a few, especially in the control branch, that I'm still deciding on icons for. That shouldn't be preventing the tech tree from loading though - there's a stock one (the gears) it falls back too, and it loads just fine on for me. Do you have CTT installed? If so, that's probably the issue. CTT isn't a dependency, so more likely than not, it's fighting with the Skyhawk Science System tree and they both just delete everything together. I don't have a true dependency list set rn, as there's some sloppy MM code I need to check over before I do that, but technically the tree should be able to stand on its own, although I'd recommend BDB and all its dependencies to fill out the bare minimum of nodes.

14 hours ago, SpaceFace545 said:

I love what your doing to try and integrate more fuels but the system just doesn't work that cleanly, not your fault, more fuels has the same issue. The major conflict is RCS fuels and tank switches especially in purpose made upper stage tanks where they have tankage for fuel and mono prop. Also an issue when other service modules have lh2 and oxygen for fuel cells. The only way I see to work through this is to give RCS engines fuel switches for different hypergolic and a more in depth real fuels tank system. 

Also, to follow up on this, I think I've found fixes to both. Going to check them out again tomorrow to make sure everything is A-OK and then see if I can package up them in a quick bugfix release.

Edited by CessnaSkyhawk
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How is the behaviour of part packs which depend on stock/CTT nodes, like for example the stock node "spaceExploration"?
Talking  of part packs without dedicated patches that is.

There neither is a node of that name in your tech tree nor there is a generic patch which renames nodes to become compatible.

Will those parts be hidden or all available from start?

see https://github.com/CessnaSkyhawk/SkyhawkScienceSystem/issues/10

 

Edit:

At the end of GameData\SkyhawkScienceSystem\Tree\SkyhawkScienceSystem.cfg there is

	@RDNode:HAS[#id[engineering101]]
	{
		@pos = -2300,860,-1
	}
	@RDNode:HAS[#id[*]]
	{
		@pos[0] += -1250
	}

which makes me wonder, why. The RDNode engineering101 is already deleted by GameData\SkyhawkScienceSystem\Tree\debugPatch.cfg as all other stock IDs as well.
And what does the 2nd patch do? Move all nodes to the left?

Edited by Gordon Dry
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2 hours ago, Gordon Dry said:

How is the behaviour of part packs which depend on stock/CTT nodes, like for example the stock node "spaceExploration"?
Talking  of part packs without dedicated patches that is.

There neither is a node of that name in your tech tree nor there is a generic patch which renames nodes to become compatible.

Will those parts be hidden or all available from start?

see https://github.com/CessnaSkyhawk/SkyhawkScienceSystem/issues/10

 

Edit:

At the end of GameData\SkyhawkScienceSystem\Tree\SkyhawkScienceSystem.cfg there is

	@RDNode:HAS[#id[engineering101]]
	{
		@pos = -2300,860,-1
	}
	@RDNode:HAS[#id[*]]
	{
		@pos[0] += -1250
	}

which makes me wonder, why. The RDNode engineering101 is already deleted by GameData\SkyhawkScienceSystem\Tree\debugPatch.cfg as all other stock IDs as well.
And what does the 2nd patch do? Move all nodes to the left?

Currently unsupported parts will just all be sent to the debug node, as there's a patch included which does so . I probably will write a patch which assigns traditional CTT/Stock parts to specific nodes in the tree, but if so that will be something done right before release, as for the time being, I prefer the debug node setup, as it's part of how I process part tech assignments (I use it to figure out which parts I haven't assigned to an SSS node yet)

That 1st patch is vestigial, from when I was first constructing the tree (I originally was planning to use the stock nodes directly, changed my mind), and will be removed. Thanks for pointing it out!

That 2nd one is due to the fact that when I expanded the tree to include the fusion/antimatter branches it originally overshot the R&D building's window, so I needed to do something to move it back, and that was the easiest solution at the time - I'm planning to go back through and clean that up, along with some other sloppy patching code, in my final prep before v1.0

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Just a heads up for anyone testing the mod right now

@Gordon Dry has found that there are some incompatibilities between it and the SSS tank switching

They recommend the following to get it working right:

Quote

If you got InterstellarFuelSwitch installed as well - on top of the needed B9PartSwitch - then consider using PatchManager and move the 4 following files from

GameData\InterstellarFuelSwitch\PatchManager\ActiveMMPatches\IntegrationLiquidFuel.cfg GameData\InterstellarFuelSwitch\PatchManager\ActiveMMPatches\IntegrationLiquidFuelOxidizer.cfg GameData\InterstellarFuelSwitch\PatchManager\ActiveMMPatches\IntegrationOxygen.cfg GameData\InterstellarFuelSwitch\PatchManager\ActiveMMPatches\IntegrationXenon.cfg

to

GameData\InterstellarFuelSwitch\PatchManager\PluginData\IntegrationLiquidFuel.cfg GameData\InterstellarFuelSwitch\PatchManager\PluginData\IntegrationLiquidFuelOxidizer.cfg GameData\InterstellarFuelSwitch\PatchManager\PluginData\IntegrationOxygen.cfg

GameData\InterstellarFuelSwitch\PatchManager\PluginData\IntegrationXenon.cfg

 

Also, in general, I'm about to hit a busy 2-3 weeks irl, and development is probably going to slow somewhat through the end of the month. If you do find any bugs or issue, do please open an issue on the github, and feel free to investigate further if you want. I'll try to respond to it when I can. I will still be doing some dev work, but it'll mostly be just plotting for science experiments, as that's something I can do with a pen and paper and not that much time commitment.

Edited by CessnaSkyhawk
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