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[1.12.x] KaioSpace-KSP - Starship 2021


EritoKaio
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22 hours ago, Starwaster said:

Boldfaced and italicized text is not accurate. Center of lift does change as flaps are angled or deployed. 

Or at least the stock flaps do when attached to the vehicle in the stock manner. If yours are attached differently then that may not be the case. Tundra's flaps ran into trouble because of the way they were attached or controlled.

(Caveat: Stock CoL changes are not displayed in the hangar however. If debugging in flight however and you have a means of displaying CoL then you can see the changes. MechJeb has such a )

unknown.png

This was a test I did, the center of lift did not move up when the flaps actuated, it stayed in the same location as if the flaps were not deployed. If there's a way to fix that, then I'd love to know, since I'm pretty new to Unity and KSP configs.

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@EritoKaio The problem there is that the force is being applied to the part transform (partTransform +  CoLOffset ), which doesn't move. So you would be correct in saying that  force isn't being applied to the correct point on the flap so: no, the center of lift/pressure won't be correct for the flap part but it is changing for the vessel as a whole. Stock KSP doesn't have a debug display for the vessel CoL so you would either need to code one or use MechJeb, which has debugging displays for the vessel CoM/CoL

As for correcting the problem, because you're using the Tundra Exploration mod for flap control, it occurs to me that one could modify the code to adjust CoLOffset and CoPOffset on the fly (and CoMOffset while you're at it if you really want to be a stickler for detail)

What you would do is recalculate the offsets based on flap rotation so that it follows the flap.

Edit: You wouldn't actually change the offset value, just track where it would be as it traverses around the partTransform and apply the force there.

Edited by Starwaster
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5 hours ago, Starwaster said:

@EritoKaio The problem there is that the force is being applied to the part transform (partTransform +  CoLOffset ), which doesn't move. So you would be correct in saying that  force isn't being applied to the correct point on the flap so: no, the center of lift/pressure won't be correct for the flap part but it is changing for the vessel as a whole. Stock KSP doesn't have a debug display for the vessel CoL so you would either need to code one or use MechJeb, which has debugging displays for the vessel CoM/CoL

As for correcting the problem, because you're using the Tundra Exploration mod for flap control, it occurs to me that one could modify the code to adjust CoLOffset and CoPOffset on the fly (and CoMOffset while you're at it if you really want to be a stickler for detail)

What you would do is recalculate the offsets based on flap rotation so that it follows the flap.

Edit: You wouldn't actually change the offset value, just track where it would be as it traverses around the partTransform and apply the force there.

Cool, I do plan on transitioning to my own script since I also want to make the vents work in a more realistic way that isn't making them engine modules.
But I need to figure that part of Unity still, its been years since I've programmed and right now I'm having way more fun with the modeling part of this, which is why I made the mod really.

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12 hours ago, EritoKaio said:

Cool, I do plan on transitioning to my own script since I also want to make the vents work in a more realistic way that isn't making them engine modules.
But I need to figure that part of Unity still, its been years since I've programmed and right now I'm having way more fun with the modeling part of this, which is why I made the mod really.

I thought the Tundra Module already automatically updates the CoL on the flaps? I don't see this funny "CoL outside of the flap" phenomenon happening.

Disregard that, I remembered wrongly, and just noticed that the same thing happens for me.

At least in the Tundra Module there's this reference:  "// If Control Surface is not in an neutral/default position (i.e. angled), update lift force according to new position" and then some code.

You could ofcourse compile your own .dll from the C-Sharp code to be sure that it'll fit all your needs, but I find that the flaps are working great already.

The vents basically work, so there's no immediate need for changing that (read: I'd have to reprogram some of my scripts).

 

 

I have spent the last few days working on my kOS script to give it a more modern look and add many features. I think this is a fun way to fly the ship as in real you also wouldn't want to pilot the ship manually unless it's necessary.

Now I'm mostly looking for bugs and inconsistencies. I plan on doing more work as your mod continues to advance. Here some quick screenshots:

 

It can already automatically calculate and perform a de-orbit burn from an orbit under 100x100km. It will ask confirmation before it executes any maneuver. It also vents the fuel until a certain threshold when re-entering.

5QRYWve.jpgHere is the main re-entry page (it's quite old, so maybe I'll rework it sooner).

 

Oy2M6fn.jpgMostly I spent this week making pages, like the 'orbit' page. Re-Entry hides some of the other pages that you're not allowed to access.

9H4ROv6.jpgThe 'ship' page displays some crucial information (unfortunately I can't get any overheating info!) for re-entry. Ignore the radiobuttons, they are still useless.

n7iWWcF.jpgAnd here's the 'doors' page, with the cargo door moving. Also here the radio-buttons are waiting for functions.

 

The other two pages for which I have no screenshots now are:

'Attitude' - provides a MJ Smart-ASS like solution. Holds attitude at a certain AoA, which is easily adjustible with buttons. Works the same for roll commands. Great for aerobraking.

'Settings' - For changing Landing Coords, and target orbit for launching, and other quicksettings yet to be determined.

 

Once you release the booster, I'll update my launch-script. In another vehicle I have already managed automatic booster returns to pad (not very precise due to the booster not having means of proper aerodynamic control, which should be easy on yours). During 1st stage landing the booster sends telemetry to Starship for following from a distance. Like here:

5KpOswV.gif

 

Sorry for all the kOS spamming. I just love kOS.. ;) I would love to have one script for all operations of Starship.

If there's any interest in my scripts, I'd happily publish them or perhaps work with all of you to publish with this mod as an optional feature.

 

On another note, I found during testing that there's some phantom fuel hanging around somewhere. When I vent my main tanks empty, it says there's 720 units of Liquid Fuel left, but the only thing I can find is the 720 Units of Oxidizer in the nose section.

Edited by Janus92
remembered something wrong
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1 hour ago, Janus92 said:

I thought the Tundra Module already automatically updates the CoL on the flaps? I don't see this funny "CoL outside of the flap" phenomenon happening.

At least in the Tundra Module there's this reference:  "// If Control Surface is not in an neutral/default position (i.e. angled), update lift force according to new position" and then some code.

It's recomputing the lift force but but not changing where it's applied which is still partTransform + CoLOffset. The actual instruction is part.partTransform.TransformPoint(part.CoLOffset) and returns a vector = to the transform + the offset.

Not sure that's even needed as I thought the lift vector was already being modified according to angle.....

Edit: Oh ok it's a complete override of ModuleLiftingSurface so it has to do that itself. Too early in the morning to look at code...

Edited by Starwaster
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9 hours ago, Janus92 said:

I thought the Tundra Module already automatically updates the CoL on the flaps? I don't see this funny "CoL outside of the flap" phenomenon happening.

Disregard that, I remembered wrongly, and just noticed that the same thing happens for me.

At least in the Tundra Module there's this reference:  "// If Control Surface is not in an neutral/default position (i.e. angled), update lift force according to new position" and then some code.

You could ofcourse compile your own .dll from the C-Sharp code to be sure that it'll fit all your needs, but I find that the flaps are working great already.

The vents basically work, so there's no immediate need for changing that (read: I'd have to reprogram some of my scripts).

 

 

I have spent the last few days working on my kOS script to give it a more modern look and add many features. I think this is a fun way to fly the ship as in real you also wouldn't want to pilot the ship manually unless it's necessary.

Now I'm mostly looking for bugs and inconsistencies. I plan on doing more work as your mod continues to advance. Here some quick screenshots:

 

It can already automatically calculate and perform a de-orbit burn from an orbit under 100x100km. It will ask confirmation before it executes any maneuver. It also vents the fuel until a certain threshold when re-entering.

5QRYWve.jpgHere is the main re-entry page (it's quite old, so maybe I'll rework it sooner).

 

Oy2M6fn.jpgMostly I spent this week making pages, like the 'orbit' page. Re-Entry hides some of the other pages that you're not allowed to access.

9H4ROv6.jpgThe 'ship' page displays some crucial information (unfortunately I can't get any overheating info!) for re-entry. Ignore the radiobuttons, they are still useless.

n7iWWcF.jpgAnd here's the 'doors' page, with the cargo door moving. Also here the radio-buttons are waiting for functions.

 

The other two pages for which I have no screenshots now are:

'Attitude' - provides a MJ Smart-ASS like solution. Holds attitude at a certain AoA, which is easily adjustible with buttons. Works the same for roll commands. Great for aerobraking.

'Settings' - For changing Landing Coords, and target orbit for launching, and other quicksettings yet to be determined.

 

Once you release the booster, I'll update my launch-script. In another vehicle I have already managed automatic booster returns to pad (not very precise due to the booster not having means of proper aerodynamic control, which should be easy on yours). During 1st stage landing the booster sends telemetry to Starship for following from a distance. Like here:

5KpOswV.gif

 

Sorry for all the kOS spamming. I just love kOS.. ;) I would love to have one script for all operations of Starship.

If there's any interest in my scripts, I'd happily publish them or perhaps work with all of you to publish with this mod as an optional feature.

 

On another note, I found during testing that there's some phantom fuel hanging around somewhere. When I vent my main tanks empty, it says there's 720 units of Liquid Fuel left, but the only thing I can find is the 720 Units of Oxidizer in the nose section.

Damn! That's really cool, most of it goes completely over my head but makes me happy people are having fun with it.
I only ended with leftover propellants when i started the flight on a non-full ship, because of how i configured the tanks to move some LOX to the header tank. So if you manually use the slider to lower the prop amount it will no longer be filled with the right ratio. Its kinda janky.


Also unrelated, if anyone knows why the heck symmetry placing of the engine isn't working let me know, I've done everything i can think of to fix it from naming the nodes like other parts to changing the axis rotation of the nodes and nothing worked.

Edited by EritoKaio
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19 hours ago, EritoKaio said:

Damn! That's really cool, most of it goes completely over my head but makes me happy people are having fun with it.
I only ended with leftover propellants when i started the flight on a non-full ship, because of how i configured the tanks to move some LOX to the header tank. So if you manually use the slider to lower the prop amount it will no longer be filled with the right ratio. Its kinda janky.


Also unrelated, if anyone knows why the heck symmetry placing of the engine isn't working let me know, I've done everything i can think of to fix it from naming the nodes like other parts to changing the axis rotation of the nodes and nothing worked.

Well, it's basically a more user friendly interface for running kOS automation scripts.

Edit: Added an engine page and made the interface lines smoother. If you produce thrust, the engines turn green. That's all the work I'll do for now.

cSL93hn.jpg

vqdKexv.jpg

About the fuel, it's true I start with a non-full ship, but maybe this picture will clarify my problem:

As you see I have run out of Liquid Fuel in the 'right-click-menus', with 720 oxidizer remaining. It has vented to the point where the engines are flaming out when started (it even says 'liquid fuel deprived'). That would confirm the values of these menus. But then there's the top-right menu reporting 720 Liquid fuel and 1600 Oxidizer?? Anyway, I'm confused.. ^^

Again said something stupid. I just opened the cargo-bay, and there it was... My counterweight.. a fuel tank. Ugh..

I'll try to look into the symmetry!

Edited by Janus92
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I was able to find the issue with the symmetry. One essential line is missing:

stackSymmetry = 2

I put it after the 'attachRules = 1,1,1,1,0' line, and now the symmetry works.

 

I am also playing a little bit with the configs. Things like mass (currently trying 2x the empty mass for nose and tank, so 56tons empty) ,  and also drag & lift to get closer to 90m/s while being balanced with powerful enough flaps. Still a WIP.

I'm raising the thrust at the moment. Assuming a real dry weight of 120 tons, and 1810kN per real raptor v1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Raptor), for 70.2 tons (22t nose+ 34t tank + 11.2t engines + 3t flaps) I get 1059kN per raptor, which I'll try out soon with LqdFuel and Lox.

 

Edited by Janus92
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On 11/10/2021 at 11:41 AM, Janus92 said:

I was able to find the issue with the symmetry. One essential line is missing:

stackSymmetry = 2

I put it after the 'attachRules = 1,1,1,1,0' line, and now the symmetry works.

 

I am also playing a little bit with the configs. Things like mass (currently trying 2x the empty mass for nose and tank, so 56tons empty) ,  and also drag & lift to get closer to 90m/s while being balanced with powerful enough flaps. Still a WIP.

I'm raising the thrust at the moment. Assuming a real dry weight of 120 tons, and 1810kN per real raptor v1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Raptor), for 70.2 tons (22t nose+ 34t tank + 11.2t engines + 3t flaps) I get 1059kN per raptor, which I'll try out soon with LqdFuel and Lox.

 

Thank you, i will try the fix!

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  • 3 weeks later...

@EritoKaioAfter some experimenting and calculations I have found that your Starship mass and balance seem to actually be quite good! Ofcourse only if you start with full tanks (as you've said before in this thread). For a ship around 2/3 the actual size, because of much lower surface area of the steel (due to much lower volume of the ship), a weight slightly above 1/3 of the actual weight (just as it is now) seems to be correct! I have to excuse for my own mumbling, which may have caused some confusion before. If the tanks were full at the start, the ship is balanced quite well throughout re-entry!

The difference between the 90m/s terminal velocity for the real ship vs. the 65-70m/s for yours I have fully accepted by now (also since it's much lighter).

The appropriate Flaps point of Lift and Drag remains an issue for roll stability, and the only thing I can think of is to make a part inbetween ship and flaps that turns the flaps (which would at this point just become aerosurfaces). But it's a rather complex and unideal solution....

 

In the meanwhile I have been working on my program. I have written an optional patch to include a kOS computer in the vehicle, for easy installation. I have also squashed many unexpected bugs that only came sometimes, making the program even more reliable.

I have implemented a logging system (both plain text and in a .csv) in my Starship Program, with which I can make some cool graphs (in LibreOffice) of some sample automated re-entries my program performed.

Here's one such flight:

xogbkX9.jpg

 

Here's the graph of Altitude and Vertical Speed plotted against Distance from Landing Zone. Blue is ship trajectory as seen from the side. Interesting is the dramatic drop in vertical speed as it slows down enough and falls into the atmosphere:

Dw3nYlU.jpg

 

And here's the Landing Maneuvre in detail, as seen from the side. Noticable is the drop in vertical speed as it starts the flip. You can also see how it automatically finds its Landing Zone (0 on the X-axis):

OxiKG40.jpg

EDIT:

Also, with a slightly more time and fuel consuming (350m/s delta v required) landing I can consistently make perfect on target (0m difference) landings. So it's ready for capturing by the tower:

yM3cnD2.jpg

 

Anyway, how's the modeling going? Any updates on the booster?

Edited by Janus92
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8 hours ago, Janus92 said:

@EritoKaioAfter some experimenting and calculations I have found that your Starship mass and balance seem to actually be quite good! Ofcourse only if you start with full tanks (as you've said before in this thread). For a ship around 2/3 the actual size, because of much lower surface area of the steel (due to much lower volume of the ship), a weight slightly above 1/3 of the actual weight (just as it is now) seems to be correct! I have to excuse for my own mumbling, which may have caused some confusion before. If the tanks were full at the start, the ship is balanced quite well throughout re-entry!

The difference between the 90m/s terminal velocity for the real ship vs. the 65-70m/s for yours I have fully accepted by now (also since it's much lighter).

The appropriate Flaps point of Lift and Drag remains an issue for roll stability, and the only thing I can think of is to make a part inbetween ship and flaps that turns the flaps (which would at this point just become aerosurfaces). But it's a rather complex and unideal solution....

 

In the meanwhile I have been working on my program. I have written an optional patch to include a kOS computer in the vehicle, for easy installation. I have also squashed many unexpected bugs that only came sometimes, making the program even more reliable.

I have implemented a logging system (both plain text and in a .csv) in my Starship Program, with which I can make some cool graphs (in LibreOffice) of some sample automated re-entries my program performed.

Here's one such flight:

xogbkX9.jpg

 

Here's the graph of Altitude and Vertical Speed plotted against Distance from Landing Zone. Blue is ship trajectory as seen from the side. Interesting is the dramatic drop in vertical speed as it slows down enough and falls into the atmosphere:

Dw3nYlU.jpg

 

And here's the Landing Maneuvre in detail, as seen from the side. Noticable is the drop in vertical speed as it starts the flip. You can also see how it automatically finds its Landing Zone (0 on the X-axis):

OxiKG40.jpg

EDIT:

Also, with a slightly more time and fuel consuming (350m/s delta v required) landing I can consistently make perfect on target (0m difference) landings. So it's ready for capturing by the tower:

yM3cnD2.jpg

 

Anyway, how's the modeling going? Any updates on the booster?

Next update should be coming by the end of the week, here's the changelog so far, it's currently on my patreon for testing to make sure i didn't miss anything. As for the booster, I'm still waiting on SpaceX to finish working on the engine skirt.

https://trello.com/c/o1nJz67k/41-v12-changelog
I did make a small change to the center of lift of the flaps to see if it helps.


FFeE12XWUAY-P0g?format=jpg&name=large

FFY0ZnhWQA0-Px2?format=jpg&name=medium

Edited by EritoKaio
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Changelog 1.2: Screenshots in the original post!
**Model/Texture Updates:**

  • Bottom tiles of both flaps have been updated to match real design (S21).
  • Adjusted the welds of the flaps.
  • Added flap motors inside the skirt.
  • Added the GSE Panel on Ship. (Only visual for now)
  • Added extra supports for the skirt clamp mounts.
  • Added RVac mounts.
  • Added COPVs inside the Ship's skirt. (Speculative placement until real-reference)
  • Added the GSE Pipes inside the skirt.
  • Added the raceway.

**Config Updates:**

  • Symmetry now works for the engine mounts.
  • RVac attachment node slightly moved up to match the visual mount. (May break craft files)
  • Added an offset to the CoL of the flaps in an attempt to improve belly flop roll stability.
  • Added a fuel switch for the tank contents and vents. (LqdMethane + Oxidizer)
  • Improved the engine configurations for CryoEngines to work better with my ship.
    • They are also now auto-installed so you don't have to do it manually.
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/3/2021 at 7:56 PM, Starwaster said:

Boldfaced and italicized text is not accurate. Center of lift does change as flaps are angled or deployed. 

Or at least the stock flaps do when attached to the vehicle in the stock manner. If yours are attached differently then that may not be the case. Tundra's flaps ran into trouble because of the way they were attached or controlled.

(Caveat: Stock CoL changes are not displayed in the hangar however. If debugging in flight however and you have a means of displaying CoL then you can see the changes. MechJeb has such a )

*EDIT* ignore everything i just said if you saw the original, i thought i was replying to a more recent message but I was on the wrong page, im a big pepega LOL ehem, anyways..

Since Elon recently showed the bottom of the booster with most of its thermal protection added, I can finally go on to finish mine, hopefully releasing it early January :)

unknown.png

Edited by EritoKaio
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On 12/18/2021 at 10:05 AM, MaPepe93 said:

I have some problem with the raptors, they are too big. I tried to resize with tweakscale mod but it has not been possible.

There is a way to change the size?

Keep in mind my mod is not made for RSS/RO and I have not added tweakscale support for the ship yet, ill try adding that when I release the booster.

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12 hours ago, InfoTheGamer said:

I've done some work and used EDB's Starship as a template, and I have a makeshift RSS/RO config. Close to real performance numbers, with the fuel ratio adjusted for SN20. 

https://github.com/InfoTheGamer/Starship-RSS-RO-config

 

Added a little section in the main post listing configs people have made :)

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/30/2021 at 4:06 PM, Janus92 said:

@EritoKaioAfter some experimenting and calculations I have found that your Starship mass and balance seem to actually be quite good! Ofcourse only if you start with full tanks (as you've said before in this thread). For a ship around 2/3 the actual size, because of much lower surface area of the steel (due to much lower volume of the ship), a weight slightly above 1/3 of the actual weight (just as it is now) seems to be correct! I have to excuse for my own mumbling, which may have caused some confusion before. If the tanks were full at the start, the ship is balanced quite well throughout re-entry!

The difference between the 90m/s terminal velocity for the real ship vs. the 65-70m/s for yours I have fully accepted by now (also since it's much lighter).

The appropriate Flaps point of Lift and Drag remains an issue for roll stability, and the only thing I can think of is to make a part inbetween ship and flaps that turns the flaps (which would at this point just become aerosurfaces). But it's a rather complex and unideal solution....

 

In the meanwhile I have been working on my program. I have written an optional patch to include a kOS computer in the vehicle, for easy installation. I have also squashed many unexpected bugs that only came sometimes, making the program even more reliable.

I have implemented a logging system (both plain text and in a .csv) in my Starship Program, with which I can make some cool graphs (in LibreOffice) of some sample automated re-entries my program performed.

Here's one such flight:

xogbkX9.jpg

 

Here's the graph of Altitude and Vertical Speed plotted against Distance from Landing Zone. Blue is ship trajectory as seen from the side. Interesting is the dramatic drop in vertical speed as it slows down enough and falls into the atmosphere:

Dw3nYlU.jpg

 

And here's the Landing Maneuvre in detail, as seen from the side. Noticable is the drop in vertical speed as it starts the flip. You can also see how it automatically finds its Landing Zone (0 on the X-axis):

OxiKG40.jpg

EDIT:

Also, with a slightly more time and fuel consuming (350m/s delta v required) landing I can consistently make perfect on target (0m difference) landings. So it's ready for capturing by the tower:

yM3cnD2.jpg

 

Anyway, how's the modeling going? Any updates on the booster?

Wow! Is there any chance you’ll release this? Or if you could send it to me that would be amazing. I tried to write a kOs script for this ship and the booster but i’m not the smartest when it comes to these things lol

Amazing work btw!

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On 1/15/2022 at 2:00 PM, MidnightRave said:

Wow! Is there any chance you’ll release this? Or if you could send it to me that would be amazing. I tried to write a kOs script for this ship and the booster but i’m not the smartest when it comes to these things lol

Amazing work btw!

I will release it when the time comes. But first I'm waiting for the booster to be finished and make my scripts work with that. And then the first thing I'll do is send it to @EritoKaio , to see if it's worthy to be included in his mod or if I have to release it on my own. My scripts have some strict requirements for now that are not ideal, like using stock liquid fuel/oxidizer instead of his Methaox (breaks delta-v calcs), and one needs to use a specific .craft file to make everything work as intended. Maybe I'll be able to find a way around these, maybe not. It needs more time before a release, that's for sure.

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22 hours ago, Nicolas xd said:

 can you do a rss ro rp/1 version of the starship design?

I do not plan to make configs for that myself. Ill leave that for the community. I don't play RSS/RP1.

Also here's a little update on the booster:

Spoiler

FJaHYaBXwAAIPY7?format=jpg&name=medium

Image

FJQoIJjX0Ac_KO7?format=png&name=900x900

FJQrNrhXIAAJ_HR?format=png&name=900x900

 

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