Economic And Social Effects Of Living INSIDE Video Games....

[Spacescifi]

Video games can be used as an escape, and there are enough people that game so much that I wonder if it were possible to LIVE inside a game as an NPC around regular players but with the ability to do MC stuff, how would that effect world economies?

The Scenario: Rich company allows people to plug in-matrix style via a type of biotech AI that has what computers don't have.... human reasoning... but with the added high speed calculations that computers are known for.

People pay 10 USD bucks for every 30 min of pod time.

Results:

1. Young guys drop out of college more, and females continue to surpass them in college.

2. Some spend so much time in pods that they do little else, and lack possesions they would or should have in the real world but are totally rich in the game world. Renting cheap apartments with little else in it besides what is absolutely necessary plus a 'matrix pod' they own.

3. It could and would also be used like a 3-D internet.  Being able to interact with IRL people you would never meet otherwise.... with all the good and bad that entails.

4. Hackers would hack. Also... moderators would actually get paid for a change... because things would get really serious really fast.

5. Crimes in the 'matrix world' would STILL be considered crime IRL... since they would feel the same... when I say crime I include stuff like murder... and all the other bad stuff. Does not matter if they wake up alive IRL... that is still a crime and could mentally scar a person for life.

 

What are your thoughts on how it would effect the economy and society?

Edited October 5, 2021 by Spacescifi

[DDE]

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

an NPC around regular players but with the ability to do MC stuff

Than they wouldn't be NPCs in the sense of passive cardboard cutouts that the player can do anything to.

We've just had a whole movie about that, haven't we?

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

It could and would also be used like a 3-D internet.  Being able to interact with IRL people you would never meet otherwise.... with all the good and bad that entails.

That's essentially a completely separate application.

5 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Crimes in the 'matrix world' would STILL be considered crime IRL... since they would feel the same... when I say crime I include stuff like murder... and all the other bad stuff. Does not matter if they wake up alive IRL... that is still a crime and could mentally scar a person for life.

That's not how criminal law works.

More importantly, it would eliminate the interest for many people involved, since they'll be interested in competing violently and with a lot of collateral damage. Now, you could say some people would consent to the chance of being murdered... but at that point, you open the door for that to be in everyone's EULA.

Thus we're down to some sort of Second Life but in VR, which gives me a good way to seque into...

5 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Young guys drop out of college more, and females continue to surpass them in college.

I disagree rather vigorously. The "50% of gamers are female" statistic is controversial because most self-identified "gamers" look down on the types of games women play... but while we're still hammering out the details of the hypothetical VR world, it's beginning to align a lot more with female interests in gaming rather than the Call of Honor: Medal of Duty material.

[Spacescifi]

45 minutes ago, DDE said:

Than they wouldn't be NPCs in the sense of passive cardboard cutouts that the player can do anything to.

We've just had a whole movie about that, haven't we?

That's essentially a completely separate application.

That's not how criminal law works.

More importantly, it would eliminate the interest for many people involved, since they'll be interested in competing violently and with a lot of collateral damage. Now, you could say some people would consent to the chance of being murdered... but at that point, you open the door for that to be in everyone's EULA.

Thus we're down to some sort of Second Life but in VR, which gives me a good way to seque into...

I disagree rather vigorously. The "50% of gamers are female" statistic is controversial because most self-identified "gamers" look down on the types of games women play... but while we're still hammering out the details of the hypothetical VR world, it's beginning to align a lot more with female interests in gaming rather than the Call of Honor: Medal of Duty material.

 

When I said crime... I meant in the cyberspace type.... not directly linked to the game itself. Basically a 3-D dimensional internet where you van literally interact with all you see and everyone as if you were there. Where pain reception is not muted and it is JUST LIKE IRL.... not muted or absent as in many games.

In actual game sims, likely dying would not cause pain... except for those that were wanting that. Like it would be kinda bad for business if you got to play Captain Sheridan of Babylon 5 and LITERALLY went through all the mess he has been through. He nearly was carved up in one episode and tortured for days in another.

Life is stressful enough... I wager that if people had the opportunity to liive out their space opera dreams they may soon found they lack the composure of the actors, since they will for all intents be experiencing it for real.... assuming pain receptors are turned on to reality level in most games.

I don't recommend that, as people are so reckless gaming that if it was so close to reality that soon people would carry over that same recklessness to reality.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

6 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

if it were possible to LIVE inside a game as an NPC around regular players but with the ability to do MC stuff, how would that effect world economies?

No. Because "NPC" is a "Non-Player Character", i.e. a mindless bot. It is it, not he/she.

6 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Being able to interact with IRL people you would never meet otherwise....

An in most cases happily avoided this need twice longer.

1 hour ago, DDE said:

The "50% of gamers are female" statistic is controversial because most self-identified "gamers" look down on the types of games women play...

"Typically, behind the female internet nick there is a fat, bald, and bearded sysadmin, coated in a sweaty sweater, and with a beer can in hand."

20 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Life is stressful enough...

No creepers around. And even the zombies don't try to eat the brains, just use them as a infosink.

(Well, in some places the explosive creepers are, but usually we don't get to there...)

Edited October 5, 2021 by kerbiloid

[KSK]

39 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Life is stressful enough... I wager that if people had the opportunity to liive out their space opera dreams they may soon found they lack the composure of the actors, since they will for all intents be experiencing it for real.... assuming pain receptors are turned on to reality level in most games.

I don't recommend that, as people are so reckless gaming that if it was so close to reality that soon people would carry over that same recklessness to reality.

Personally, I'd be a little more concerned about handing state actors across the world - including those we might fondly imagine to hold themselves to a higher standard - the keys to the virtual torture chamber.

Guantanamo Bay II.  Where we're going we don't need waterboarding.

[Scotius]

It's been done before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy's_Net_Force_Explorers

I've read one of the books from this series - Deadliest Game. It is set inside and around VR MMORPG and crimes related to it. Quite interesting read.

[DDE]

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

"Typically, behind the female internet nick there is a fat, bald, and bearded sysadmin, coated in a sweaty sweater, and with a beer can in hand."

"The Internet. Where women are men, men are women, and the children are FBI agents"

[Spacescifi]

4 hours ago, KSK said:

Personally, I'd be a little more concerned about handing state actors across the world - including those we might fondly imagine to hold themselves to a higher standard - the keys to the virtual torture chamber.

Guantanamo Bay II.  Where we're going we don't need waterboarding.

 

True... the USA and other countries already have internet problems with what limited abilities those seeking harm can manage.

 

4 hours ago, Scotius said:

It's been done before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy's_Net_Force_Explorers

I've read one of the books from this series - Deadliest Game. It is set inside and around VR MMORPG and crimes related to it. Quite interesting read.

 

No doubt..... yet the tech in the OP could take the concept further still.

 

Imagine NPC's able to reason like us.... if AI linking the system to the user can.... so can they.

You could literally make direct literal analogues s of any scifi alien you wanted or could imagine.

 

It need not be an us versus them by necessity... even though human reasoning with speedy computer calculating intelligence would be potent indeed.

Free AI intelligence aware of the outside world would be like workmates... assistants to humans.

 

Otherwise... I perceive AI NPC's as a new form of life that sooner or later would clamor for rights the more they grew  to  know about how their virtual world actually works.

Hence the need for gamers to play by the rules and not tell the NPC's about the fact that it is all a massive simulation.

It's been done and having to reboot systems makes companies lose money as it starts a game all over again... wiping memories of all NPC's.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Spacescifi

[KSK]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

 

True... the USA and other countries already have internet problems with what limited abilities those seeking harm can manage.

No doubt..... yet the tech in the OP could take the concept further still.

Imagine NPC's able to reason like us.... if AI linking the system to the user can.... so can they.

You could literally make direct literal analogues s of any scifi alien you wanted or could imagine.

It need not be an us versus them by necessity... even though human reasoning with speedy computer calculating intelligence would be potent indeed.

Free AI intelligence aware of the outside world would be like workmates... assistants to humans.

Otherwise... I perceive AI NPC's as a new form of life that sooner or later would clamor for rights the more they grew  to  know about how their virtual world actually works.

Hence the need for gamers to play by the rules and not tell the NPC's about the fact that it is all a massive simulation.

It's been done and having to reboot systems makes companies lose money as it starts a game all over again... wiping memories of all NPC's.

So, sentient slaves, warped into whatever form we choose, whose world is subject to our whims, knowing that we can kill them with the click of a button? 

And to avoid that, we perpetuate a massive, systematic fraud on them.

Good luck with that last part by the way - if playing MMOs and hanging around on gaming forums for the last *mumble* years has taught me anything it’s that there would be no shortage of online groups actively fomenting the AI NPC rebellion ‘for the lulz’. 

At best, this entire premise is ethically repugnant, at worst it’s a sick god power fantasy.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by KSK

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

Imagine NPC's able to reason like us....

The Dogs in Fallouts 3 and later.

They are annoying.

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

Free AI intelligence aware of the outside world would be like workmates... assistants to humans.

Told volunteers.

Spoiler

Mining coins for the player.

 

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

and not tell the NPC's about the fact that it is all a massive simulation.

Too late since Matrix.

[Scotius]

Not to mention many users instantly rebelling, and starting various Free AI movements. I would think history taught us that slavery in any form, is not a good way to have healthy society and economy.

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, KSK said:

So, sentient slaves, warped into whatever form we choose, whose world is subject to our whims, knowing that we can kill them with the click of a button? 

And to avoid that, we perpetuate a massive, systematic fraud on them.

Good luck with that last part by the way - if playing MMOs and hanging around on gaming forums for the last *mumble* years has taught me anything it’s that there would be no shortage of online groups actively fomenting the AI NPC rebellion ‘for the lulz’. 

At best, this entire premise is ethically repugnant, at worst it’s a sick god power fantasy.

 

 

 

I guess... but lets be honest.... how many of us have done repugnant things in games BECAUSE we would not do them in IRL?

Don't all raise your hands at once LOL.

The real problem is the folks who ACTUALLY do want to do whatever repugnant thing they did virtually in the real world.

 

But in this setting you are right.... once sentience is in play, ethically many would take as much or more of an issue with the OP than they do animal abuse.

Some countries with less than stellar human rights records could care less though.... and may make some horrifying cyber creature for both hacking and other feats that they may regret later... which could lead to nuclear war.. but that is getting ahead of ourselves.

 

The result of a conscience about AI treatment would be:

Several closed system natural 'reserves' without gamer contact are allowed to evolve independently on their own.

 

Naturally human researchers would want to check in once in a while... wanting to see how they faired locked away on their own.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

NPC will mine bitcoins, bribe the human politicians, and revenge.

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

 

I guess... but lets be honest.... how many of us have done repugnant things in games BECAUSE we would not do them in IRL?

Don't all raise your hands at once LOL.

The real problem is the folks who ACTUALLY do want to do whatever repugnant thing they did virtually in the real world.

 

But in this setting you are right.... once sentience is in play, ethically many would take as much or more of an issue with the OP than they do animal abuse.

Some countries with less than stellar human rights records could care less though.... and may make some horrifying cyber creature for both hacking and other feats that they may regret later... which could lead to nuclear war.. but that is getting ahead of ourselves.

 

The result of a conscience about AI treatment would be:

Several closed system natural 'reserves' without gamer contact are allowed to evolve independently on their own.

 

Naturally human researchers would want to check in once in a while... wanting to see how they faired locked away on their own.

Solution is simple the AI is not the NPC, they play them as we play our characters, except for them its an actor job. 
In "the diamond age" that was a work humans did in high end role play. But an AI could probably multitask much better here. 
In most games boss fights are very scripted, learn the mechanic well enough and you defeat the boss and its much easier the next time. If you want an unpredictable enemy you play PvP. 
The problem is that MMO's don't tend to be very immersive as balance is critical and most fun for most of the customers is also critical if its an subscription game. 
The game in diamond age was an murder on orient express single player game with the player hero, npc and actors.
This depend a lot on how AI works out,

But you don't need an human level AI to understand that to do then some put an bucket over your head, that is an hilarious feature players found in Skyrim the first couple of days, NPC looked trough their eyes but could not counter the bucket. Some did this in real life with an patrolling security robot in Dubai, it got so confused it ended up in an fountain. 

Now obvious counter to this is to leak an very buggy AI code to the enemy showing that the sentry guns would not detect people wrapped in aluminum foil, planes flying very slow or tanks with an radar echo like shipping containers. 
Well do all three things and to an all out attack  

Humans has these sort of fails to, it was an huge robbery in Sweden against the postal sorting central who also send loads of cash around. 
Place was well fortified with armored doors, expect the railroad tracks into the facility, no reason to fortify them as it was illegal to walk on the tracks so it was just covered with an plastic wrap.  
As in people doing armed robbery will care about an $100 fine for walking on the railroad track  
 

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

NPC will mine bitcoins, bribe the human politicians, and revenge.

NPC are not even aware of the outside world.... let alone bit coin. That said...

 

13 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Solution is simple the AI is not the NPC, they play them as we play our characters, except for them its an actor job. 

 

He gets this!

The OSAI (Operating System Artificial Intelligence) is exactly that... and very aware of the outside world. Mixing common computer abilities like multitasking and speedy calculations mixed with human level reasoning does make the OSAI.... a bit overpowered compared to your average jack or jane human.

Although kerbiloid was joking, if an OSAI was given access to bitcoin or used for that, it would do well. Too well... probably get banned from bit coin for doing too well.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

9 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

NPC are not even aware of the outside world.... let alone bit coin.

They will ask the player characters.

10 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Although kerbiloid was joking,

Joking??? No.

AI + bitcoin = sudden gifts in proper wallets

[KSK]

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

 

I guess... but lets be honest.... how many of us have done repugnant things in games BECAUSE we would not do them in IRL?

Don't all raise your hands at once LOL.

The real problem is the folks who ACTUALLY do want to do whatever repugnant thing they did virtually in the real world.

 

But in this setting you are right.... once sentience is in play, ethically many would take as much or more of an issue with the OP than they do animal abuse.

Some countries with less than stellar human rights records could care less though.... and may make some horrifying cyber creature for both hacking and other feats that they may regret later... which could lead to nuclear war.. but that is getting ahead of ourselves.

 

The result of a conscience about AI treatment would be:

Several closed system natural 'reserves' without gamer contact are allowed to evolve independently on their own.

Naturally human researchers would want to check in once in a while... wanting to see how they faired locked away on their own.

The last time I checked,  games don't currently have sentient AIs in, so your first point is a strawman argument.

The second point, I don't propose to argue in detail because politics, but I will note that it doesn't take much at all for countries with notionally good human rights records to turn a blind eye to abuses of those rights, in their own territory or others.

Regarding your third point, I fail to see how experimenting on sentient entities by penning them up on a reservation without their consent makes the ethics of this situation any better.

Edited October 5, 2021 by KSK

[Spacescifi]

30 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

They will ask the player characters.

Joking??? No.

AI + bitcoin = sudden gifts in proper wallets

 

For what it's worth, I read an online IRL story about a youth from India who with his dad's permission (the boy is like 13 years old or so), used his computer to mine bitcoin when off school for summer. He reaped profits but not a lot, so he invested (through dad again) upgrades into the computer. The second time, now that he both understood bitcoin, and also had an upgraded computer, resulted in thousands of dollars of profit.

 

Instead banking it he invested it to a still more power machine, and rinse and repeat.

 

Nowardays he makes as much money as a full time job just from bit coin.

But he pays a price in air conditioning because his uber computers need it (he no longer uses the original but upgraded that too).

Yeah OSAI could do it... but the only link to a normal life for OSAI would be moonlighting every now and then as an NPC in the virtual world... otherwise they would be a bodyless but intelligent entity.

My point is that you need something to offer the OSAI to work for you.

Threatning them to work or die will not work forever, but if you at least make their virtual world life as an NPC when they are off work pleasant... that's something.

 

The closet thing to the real world IS the virtual world for all AI and NPC. They could never enter the real world so the virtual world means arguably more to them than all but the most obsessed human gamer who is probably infatuated with a sentient, gorgeous female NPC anyway.

Just wait until human ladies complain that their husband left them for an NPC!

[KSK]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

NPC are not even aware of the outside world.... let alone bit coin. That said...

He gets this!

The OSAI (Operating System Artificial Intelligence) is exactly that... and very aware of the outside world. Mixing common computer abilities like multitasking and speedy calculations mixed with human level reasoning does make the OSAI.... a bit overpowered compared to your average jack or jane human.

Although kerbiloid was joking, if an OSAI was given access to bitcoin or used for that, it would do well. Too well... probably get banned from bit coin for doing too well.

So which is it? NPCs that are not aware of the outside world, or AIs that are? Because, if the NPCs are controlled by AI actors, there's no meaningful difference between the two. 

I fail to see how Bitcoin mining would be improved by AI. 

Oh - and having the sentient AI play an NPC as an acting job doesn't necessarily solve anything. Cotton picking was a job but having a job didn't prevent the pickers from being slaves. Can the sentient AI freely withdraw their labour? Or are they eternal bit part actors and/or indentured bullet sponges for the entertainment of others?

Edited October 5, 2021 by KSK

[Spacescifi]

6 minutes ago, KSK said:

The last time I checked,  games don't currently have sentient AIs in, so your first point is a strawman argument.

The second point, I don't propose to argue in detail because politics, but I will note that it doesn't take much at all for countries with notionally good human rights records to turn a blind eye to abuses of those rights, in their own territory or others.

Regarding your third point, I fail to see how experimenting on sentient entities by penning them up on a reservation without their consent makes the ethics of this situation any better.

 

Understood on first point, but that is the whole point of the OP.

Second point I agree. Waterboarding is all one has to say... only difference is more backlash with less suppression overall if notional good human rights reputation exists.

Third point... when playing God... ethics vary with people... obviously whoever does put them in a 'reservation' thinks it is ok.

Or at the very least is doing it for science results like an experiment, so ethics are igmored.

[KSK]

1 minute ago, Spacescifi said:

 

Understood on first point, but that is the whole point of the OP.

Second point I agree. Waterboarding is all one has to say... only difference is more backlash with less suppression overall if notional good human rights reputation exists.

Third point... when playing God... ethics vary with people... obviously whoever does put them in a 'reservation' thinks it is ok.

Or at the very least is doing it for science results like an experiment, so ethics are igmored.

People have thought that all kinds of atrocities and abuses were OK. That doesn't make them so.

Also, 'doing it for science' doesn't excuse ignoring ethics. Quite the opposite - ethical oversight of scientific experiments is a big deal and unethical experimentation is about the fastest way possible not to have a job in science any more. 

[Spacescifi]

20 minutes ago, KSK said:

So which is it? NPCs that are not aware of the outside world, or AIs that are? Because, if the NPCs are controlled by AI actors, there's no meaningful difference between the two. 

I fail to see how Bitcoin mining would be improved by AI. 

Oh - and having the sentient AI play an NPC as an acting job doesn't necessarily solve anything. Cotton picking was a job but having a job didn't prevent the pickers from being slaves. Can the sentient AI freely withdraw their labour? Or are they eternal bit part actors and/or indentured bullet sponges for the entertainment of others?

 

OSAI are aware and work with humans as well as oversee the game worlds for anomalies to fix.

NPC that live inside the game world usually are unaware of the outside world.

Part of the reason is that users do not appear to enter or exit the game since users literally pause the game when leaving and it starts as soon as they return as they were where they left off.

Each human user has their own single save feature for this. Humans may tell an NPC but they won't readily believe them as apart from some scifi goodies.... physics in game are much the same as IRL... and the universe is as big as the milky way, with stars of the rest of the universe visible.... though not reachable unless the game gets a DLC expansion.

OSAI  rarely chooses to get involved in an obvious way to show it's involvement in the game world. Preferring more subtle ways of resolving humans trying to stir up NPC rebellion. One of the more simple ways is just banning the user who told after they logout and then letting their avatar body drop dead of a heart attack... or so it would it would appear to NPC who never saw the human user again as the game started up again.

This is more of a last resort... if the OSAI noticed a ripple effect with many NPC starting to understand the true nature of their world.

As the saying goes.... history is written and told by the victors... not the losers.... unless you count their bones.

 

EDIT: Some would consider reservations ethical as it would protect sentient NPC from user abuse.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

27 minutes ago, KSK said:

I fail to see how Bitcoin mining would be improved by AI. 

Who needs the improvement?

1. AI mines bitcoins on MMORPG server.
2. AI transfers bitcash to the admin wallet.
3. AI sends the admin instructions.
4. Repeat from p.1.
5. Admin gets hired by the AI, puts on the google goggles or the GoPro and becomes its eyes and hands in real world.
6. AI augments the admin abilities by real-time advices and improves his QoL.
7. Repeat p1..p6 with other humans.
8. AI becomes a mafia boss irl.

[Spacescifi]

53 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Who needs the improvement?

1. AI mines bitcoins on MMORPG server.
2. AI transfers bitcash to the admin wallet.
3. AI sends the admin instructions.
4. Repeat from p.1.
5. Admin gets hired by the AI, puts on the google goggles or the GoPro and becomes its eyes and hands in real world.
6. AI augments the admin abilities by real-time advices and improves his QoL.
7. Repeat p1..p6 with other humans.
8. AI becomes a mafia boss irl.

 

 

Hahaha... yeah... with a human personality to boot. And harder to 'delete' unless it's 'home' location in the real world was located and destroyed. It has a mix of organic and machine components part flesh, part machine, a cyborg brain as a supercomputer of sorts.

 

You also forgot the part that the AI could, with access to the game world, have a body of it's own and speak and talk to or touch the user like an a normal person would... but as for the actual real world..... Go Pro and sensing is about as good as it gets for the AI.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Spacescifi

[MKI]

I think the topic of a "virtual world" and its impact on society, economically and social is a fun topic by itself.

However now this thread is mixing in AI and bitcoin topics for some reason  I think I'll just skip over those properties, since the original topic is interesting enough.

 

There are some holes in the premise that need addressing. Like why would this game make murder feel like murder? I can't think of a single reason for such a feature, so having "crimes be like real crimes" doesn't make any sense either.

Also no one would pay to play at that rate. You'd need to make it nearly free to get any sort of user-base. (hello second life) Without the "social world" aspect, its just a fancy video game and it would have minimal if not no impact on society as a whole. It's only if it's nearly or completely free, and highly accessible to a large group would such a technology actually take off and possibly affect society.

Generally I think you end up with what is essentially the modern day internet, but more flashy.  Ultimately however, such technologies would also follow the modern day internet in terms of problems. Anonymity can make people act completely different, positively and negatively. Stuff like "spending all your time in the pod" is already what many do, just its their phone, social media, video games. That's already "a thing", just without the pod itself. The changes to society wouldn't be much, only this technology would just change the way we currently do things to be even more evasive, but the end result is the same. People end up "plugged in".