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Choosing a COVID-19 vaccine booster


sevenperforce
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6 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

Well, my take-away was certainly not that the vaccine is 100%; it definitely isn't. If people have a breakthrough infection, then it is more likely that they have some latent vulnerability (either due to blood type or due to weak immune response) and so they are more likely to benefit from a booster. That's all I'm saying.

What do you mean, "no effective vaccine"? All the vaccines authorized for use are extraordinarily effective.

When all this started, we were hoping to get lucky with vaccines that were 40-50% effective at preventing serious illness. Instead we got vaccines that were 85-90% effective at completely preventing infection/transmission and 90-95% effective at preventing serious illness.

They're also not comparable in terms of disease duration and prognosis (AIDS is lifelong and incurable while most COVID-19 cases are asymptomatic and all cases resolve) or prevention (AIDS is 99% preventable by a combination of abstinence, monogamy, and barriers while masking and distancing only lowers COVID-19 transmission risk by 50-70%).

That's probably because full booster authorization only happened yesterday, and even now you're probably not in a booster-eligible group. Doctor's aren't going to push you to take something they're not yet able to give you.

Masking as a way of protecting yourself was never believed to be particularly effective. Cheap cloth masks do not offer significant protection to the wearer. Masking is effective, however, for source control: reducing transmission. If I'm in a room with someone who has presymptomatic COVID and I am wearing a mask, my odds are not great; if they're wearing a mask, my odds are much better.

This is one of the first respiratory viruses in human history with a significant presymptomatic contagious period. With most communicable respiratory diseases, you begin to be contagious when your symptoms first emerge, and you remain at the same level of contagiousness until your primary symptoms start to wane. But with COVID-19, you are extraordinarily contagious 2-3 days before you show any symptoms, and by the time you realize you are infected, you are less than half as contagious as when you started. The primary mode of transmission for COVID-19 is superspreader events by presymptomatic carriers who find out later that they are infected (or whose symptoms are mild enough that they never even realize it was more than a head cold).

The goal of masking is not to protect the wearer, but to protect everyone else in case the wearer is presymptomatic and doesn't know it yet.

that is on the grounds that people know what they are doing. you got people with poorly fitted masks, you got people with their nose out, you got people using diy masks with no scientific testing to back up their efficacy. before the vaccine we used 4-layer medical grade masks. it was hard to get a good face seal. if you have any facial hair its impossible. air is just bypassing the filter in little jets through any cracks it can find, which no doubt carry various germs and viruses at velocity. we wore them before we had vaccines, but mask disposal and handling of used mask or cleaning of reusable masks was something that kind of got glossed over.  its now a new litter item thats all over the streets, and some of them no doubt contain covid for the few days it can survive on surfaces.

given how little i get out, how i don't like crowds (no social, just distancing), my rural location, and local infection rates, ive stopped wearing masks in most situations. in a different situation i might still wear them, such as an urban setting, or if i need to go somewhere that is full of people, and most health care infrastructure requires them. and frankly the people who dont get their shot now are often the people who didnt wear a mask in the pre-vaccine times. i dont like the idea of masking to protect anti-vaxxers. i like to view it as evolution in progress. id like to see mask mandates go away so that people who aren't getting their shot might reconsider as nobody is required to protect them. 

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1 hour ago, NFUN said:

the virus

 

to mutate in ways to become even worse

Actually that is a losing scenario for any virus.  You don't want to kill the host too quickly. 

Instead, you prefer long illness where the host can shed viral loads throughout the population and they enjoy a lingering illness and can shed more. 

The Delta is a prime example - higher transmission and breakthrough of inoculated people with a lower mortality rate is a more ideal version (from the virus' standpoint) than was the first infection. 

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considering he only cares about the outcomes of vaccinated people, higher transmission and breakthrough of inoculated people is exactly how he'd define "worse"

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4 hours ago, Nuke said:

that is on the grounds that people know what they are doing. you got people with poorly fitted masks, you got people with their nose out, you got people using diy masks with no scientific testing to back up their efficacy. before the vaccine we used 4-layer medical grade masks. it was hard to get a good face seal. if you have any facial hair its impossible. air is just bypassing the filter in little jets through any cracks it can find, which no doubt carry various germs and viruses at velocity. we wore them before we had vaccines, but mask disposal and handling of used mask or cleaning of reusable masks was something that kind of got glossed over.  its now a new litter item thats all over the streets, and some of them no doubt contain covid for the few days it can survive on surfaces.

given how little i get out, how i don't like crowds (no social, just distancing), my rural location, and local infection rates, ive stopped wearing masks in most situations. in a different situation i might still wear them, such as an urban setting, or if i need to go somewhere that is full of people, and most health care infrastructure requires them. and frankly the people who dont get their shot now are often the people who didnt wear a mask in the pre-vaccine times. i dont like the idea of masking to protect anti-vaxxers. i like to view it as evolution in progress. id like to see mask mandates go away so that people who aren't getting their shot might reconsider as nobody is required to protect them. 

I've never put any faith in the masks, especially the little blue surgical ones. Or ones advertised as being "breathable". :lol: I only wore mine when it was required.

I also haven't gotten the vaccine, and don't plan to. I'm in a very low-risk group anyways.

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25 minutes ago, SOXBLOX said:

I've never put any faith in the masks, especially the little blue surgical ones. Or ones advertised as being "breathable". :lol: I only wore mine when it was required.

I also haven't gotten the vaccine, and don't plan to. I'm in a very low-risk group anyways.

 

5 hours ago, NFUN said:

[allowing the virus to spread] is evolution in progress

 

for the virus

 

to mutate in ways to become even worse

 

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27 minutes ago, SOXBLOX said:

I've never put any faith in the masks, especially the little blue surgical ones. Or ones advertised as being "breathable". :lol: I only wore mine when it was required.

I also haven't gotten the vaccine, and don't plan to. I'm in a very low-risk group anyways.

I won't tell you if you should or should not. But I will say I have seen people get COVID and get hospitalized ranging from the very young  'healthy' range to the old. Regardless of age the virus is deadly.

But again, it's your decision. I got it even though I am in the "low risk," because Biology has taught me, spreading a virus regardless of feeling sick is just more of an opportunity for the virus to become even more deadlier.

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1 hour ago, The Doodling Astronaut said:

I won't tell you if you should or should not. But I will say I have seen people get COVID and get hospitalized ranging from the very young  'healthy' range to the old. Regardless of age the virus is deadly.

But again, it's your decision. I got it even though I am in the "low risk," because Biology has taught me, spreading a virus regardless of feeling sick is just more of an opportunity for the virus to become even more deadlier.

That's true. I knew a man whose memory and sense of smell were affected by it. But a close relative got it and only had mild cold-like symptoms. It's weird how it hits some folks hard and barely touches others.

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14 minutes ago, SOXBLOX said:
1 hour ago, The Doodling Astronaut said:

I won't tell you if you should or should not. But I will say I have seen people get COVID and get hospitalized ranging from the very young  'healthy' range to the old. Regardless of age the virus is deadly.

But again, it's your decision. I got it even though I am in the "low risk," because Biology has taught me, spreading a virus regardless of feeling sick is just more of an opportunity for the virus to become even more deadlier.

That's true. I knew a man whose memory and sense of smell were affected by it. But a close relative got it and only had mild cold-like symptoms. It's weird how it hits some folks hard and barely touches others.

It's a lot like polio. Most cases are asymptomatic. A small amount of cases see moderate symptoms. A fraction of cases end up dead or crippled for life.

Only it is VASTLY more contagious than polio and the percentage of dead or crippled is MUCH higher than polio. 

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I have a very healthy coworker in his mid 40s that got Covid twice a few months apart. The second time did something to his intestines that was bad enough that this already thin, wiry guy lost 30 pounds, and finally ended up having surgery a few months ago. I haven’t asked him the details, but he still looks pretty weak. I used to partner with him for our firm’s most challenging and physical surveys, and we’re not sure he’ll ever be able to do it again.

Looking forward to a booster myself, since I got the crappy J&J more than 6 months ago. My bout with Covid was March 2020, so I may not have any natural antibodies left.

My parents are almost 80, and my mom is in such poor health that she can’t be vaccinated. No way in hell am I not going to protect them as much as I can.

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11 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

It's weird how it hits some folks hard and barely touches others

My fellow Marines have had some fun with Covid and our history of being inoculated (and other stuff) against pretty much everything:

mememe_8b3707a8062c4fb7c014f1dfaf1800e6-

mememe_0ff3d3ff76ef2924ae62fae1bfc50036-

The thing is: there's not enough info out there about what a 'mild' case leaves behind.  Sure, you hear all about the deaths, and the hospitalized w/reduced lung function... but Covid does some weird stuff.  They should (without hype) tell people how even surviving a mild infection can leave you with something that sucks.

Like in my case: lingering (months long) headaches and no sense of smell.

Quote

The study revealed the step-by-step mechanism of COVID-19-related loss of smell in chronological order. Upon viral infection, the cilia on the surface of sensory neurons disappear. These cilia are slender projections of the cell’s bounding membrane that latch onto odorant molecules and constitute the first step in the perception of smell. The authors showed that SARS-CoV-2 can persist in the nasal sensory neurons in humans for several months after the symptoms of the disease have resolved.

COVID-19-related Loss of Smell and Taste Linked to Viral Staying Power in the Human Nose (genengnews.com)

Quote

The authors showed SARs-CoV-2 infection of nasal sensory neurons and subsequent infection of the olfactory bulb act as a portal for its entry into more remote regions of the brain such as the brainstem and the cerebral cortex, through a process called “retrograde invasion.”

 

I got covid last January and documented some of my experiences here (and in subsequent posts): 

The headaches stopped around June, and taste returned - but the loss of smell persisted.

So fast forward to today - and now I'm having some suspicious things going on.  Since mid-August I've had daily headaches (and I don't get headaches, often) and am having weird perceptional problems that make it so I cannot drive at freeway speeds or at night.  The symptoms have gotten progressively worse since then.  Not debilitatingly so - but you'd be surprised at what a pain in the keester it is to try to live a normal life in America without being able to get on a highway or freeway.  (The perceptional problems are weird: at some point my brain simply refuses to process information.  Like I can see everything, but it stops having meaning.  The other day I stared at a red light as I was driving wondering why it was there - until with a jolt of adrenalin I realized it was a RED LIGHT and I was approaching the intersection and needed to stop.  WEIRD -- and very disconcerting.)

I'm going in for an EEG and a nuclear MRI of the brain at the end of the month.

One of the possible explanations for my symptoms?  Post-Covid neurological damage.

Large-Scale Study Finds One-Third of COVID-19 Patients Suffer Neurological Damage | BioSpace

FUN!

 

 

...

 

 

Anyway - its been said that people who are young and healthy don't really have to worry about dying from Covid, and that's true.  But I would caution everyone that you don't want to survive a mild case and be crippled for life.  Polio did not kill everyone, either, 

unspecified-4.jpg

 

Edited by JoeSchmuckatelli
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On 10/21/2021 at 2:52 AM, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Oh - and if anyone reading this is one of the idjits who does not want the vaccine... Trust me you DO NOT want the disease... Even a mild case has long after effects that are not fun

 

Well, some of you (or even most) might not agree with me, but I am choosing not to take a vaccine. And not because of all different theories that are circulating around but because of my personal experience. Before this all started my personal doctor tried to convince me for quite a few years to take a flu vaccine because I am a bit overweight and I have asthma. So, after few years of her trying to convince me I cave in, take a flu shot. My arm was swollen for more than a week and after about 3-4 weeks I got my first case of flu in like 10-15 years. And I was stuck in bed for more than a week. Then few years go by without any problems but she still persisted. So again, after few years I took the flu vaccine again and again had a really bad case of flu. That time I said "never again" and I haven't had any flu cases any more.

Then covid came. In my previous company 2 coworkers who I worked with daily and had close contacts with both got it. And they had a nasty one but both came back to work within a month. Just a week later 3 more coworkers from another store got downed either with positive test or had to self isolate. I had no problems. All in all almost 90% of my ex coworkers had either contracted it or had someone in their family get it and I haven't had a single cough. Ok, I had a nasty case of bronchitis (yes I tested for covid and was negative) sometime last winter but that was all. When I changed company my new boss went to get vaccinated since he works at customers homes (HVAC, water, electricity...) His wife had covid during winter, he was home with her and haven't had it. After he took vaccine he was down for a week and almost died. Said he'd rather be unable to work than to take another shot.

If time comes when we won't be able to choose than I will get the vaccine. But as long as I can choose I'll take my chance without it.

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11 minutes ago, Cuky said:

 

Well, some of you (or even most) might not agree with me, but I am choosing not to take a vaccine. And not because of all different theories that are circulating around but because of my personal experience. Before this all started my personal doctor tried to convince me for quite a few years to take a flu vaccine because I am a bit overweight and I have asthma. So, after few years of her trying to convince me I cave in, take a flu shot. My arm was swollen for more than a week and after about 3-4 weeks I got my first case of flu in like 10-15 years. And I was stuck in bed for more than a week. Then few years go by without any problems but she still persisted. So again, after few years I took the flu vaccine again and again had a really bad case of flu. That time I said "never again" and I haven't had any flu cases any more.

Then covid came. In my previous company 2 coworkers who I worked with daily and had close contacts with both got it. And they had a nasty one but both came back to work within a month. Just a week later 3 more coworkers from another store got downed either with positive test or had to self isolate. I had no problems. All in all almost 90% of my ex coworkers had either contracted it or had someone in their family get it and I haven't had a single cough. Ok, I had a nasty case of bronchitis (yes I tested for covid and was negative) sometime last winter but that was all. When I changed company my new boss went to get vaccinated since he works at customers homes (HVAC, water, electricity...) His wife had covid during winter, he was home with her and haven't had it. After he took vaccine he was down for a week and almost died. Said he'd rather be unable to work than to take another shot.

If time comes when we won't be able to choose than I will get the vaccine. But as long as I can choose I'll take my chance without it.

I can respect that: every person has to weigh how and whether to experiment upon themselves in light of their own experiences and particular situations.  I'd just caution you to read my latest post above.  Even a mild case of covid leaves lingering problems - and while my doctors and I have not actually concluded that the brain / neurological symptoms that have affected me since August are Covid related, losing your sense of smell is maddening enough.

Best of luck to you.

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39 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I can respect that: every person has to weigh how and whether to experiment upon themselves in light of their own experiences and particular situations.  I'd just caution you to read my latest post above.  Even a mild case of covid leaves lingering problems - and while my doctors and I have not actually concluded that the brain / neurological symptoms that have affected me since August are Covid related, losing your sense of smell is maddening enough.

Best of luck to you.

Yes I understand that. But so far looking what is happening around me can't really prove to me that this vaccine will protect me more than what my immune system did so far. Maybe I am wrong, time will tell. And still, that is my opinion at this moment. As time goes by it can even become stronger or it could completely change.

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This thread is closed pending review.

The thread is reopened. Please remember to keep all comments within the forum guidelines. This means do not discuss politics and especially, no personal attacks for those having views on the topic that may be different than yours.

When in doubt, report comments you think violate the forum guidelines and do not engage the person posting the comment yourself. That's why we have a good moderating team - so we can handle the unpleasantness of forum moderation and housekeeping. After all, who actually enjoys doing the dishes? :) 

 

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On 10/30/2021 at 12:15 PM, kerbiloid said:

Where is the worldwide tobacco total ban

Sweden would revolt. 

Funny thing: tobacco is not actually all that bad for you.  Smoking is. 

Just don't say you want to ban smoking around the legalize Marijuana crowd... They think their smoke is special 

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5 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Funny thing: tobacco is not actually all that bad for you.  Smoking is. 

Just don't say you want to ban smoking around the legalize Marijuana crowd... They think their smoke is special 

I mean any kind of spending the lungs, which are required in covid epoch.

It's much easier to ban the tobacco production and selling than to vaccinate everybody.

And tobacco doesn't play any positive role for the organism.

So, why not start with it.

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4 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

tobacco doesn't play any positive role for the organism

Combat vets would disagree. 

Nicotine has been used by humans for thousands of years.  It is both calming and helps you focus.  

Demon Alcohol was once maligned as well.  We don't need no more prohibition from the fanatics 

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Here in Norway its recommended to use an mix of vaccines as in Moderna and Pfizer, however I got my second Pfizer shot the day before I read this and I selected Pfizer because I assumed you should continue the same vaccine as last even if you was free to select. 
Now I see that mixing will give an broader but probably a bit weaker protection. 

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On 10/22/2021 at 6:30 AM, sevenperforce said:

It's a lot like polio. Most cases are asymptomatic. A small amount of cases see moderate symptoms. A fraction of cases end up dead or crippled for life.

Only it is VASTLY more contagious than polio and the percentage of dead or crippled is MUCH higher than polio. 

This, now the main purpose of an vaccine is herd immunity, even if an vaccine is only 80% effective it would reduce number of people one sick can infect to 1/5. 
and this multiplies as each who do get sick can again only infect 1/5 as many again as in 0.2^2= 0.04.
And that is the reason you want people in contact with lots of others to be 
vaccinated at all cost.  Yes this should include the one working at cash registers in stores. 

Here in Norway they offer an 3rd shot for people above 65 and health personnel with patient contact, later is important as patients are sicker than average :) 

And that even dentist get pretty intimate to you, its an reason why they used masks decades before Covid. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/21/2021 at 6:52 PM, AtomicTech said:

4sgcfp.jpg

About a month ago, our Healthcare Ministry has acknowledged the fact that most people have two shoulders, and so authorized jabbing one with Sputnik-Light, and the other with the year's flu vaccine.

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