What Should A Klingon Be Rewarded With?

[Spacescifi]

TNG and DS9 barely scratched the surface of this subject.

If a Klingon is successful in battle, it would seem that they are rewarded with bloodwine (likely best grade and not the cheap stuff) and Gowron declaring in his memetic way:

 

 

 

But what else?

I mean I know I would want more than that as a klingon!

Give me something as a reward!

What do they get? Land? Money? Concubines?

What. Do. They. Get?

As amusing as Gowron's big eyes are.... yeah... if  I risked my life in battle I would expect reasonable compensation, and Gowron's line won't cut it if there is no reward behind it.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Spacescifi

[cubinator]

Yeah I think they do get land and their family's influence over the Empire expands.

[adsii1970]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

TNG and DS9 barely scratched the surface of this subject.

Honor. Glory. Immortality.

History nerd alert. History nerd alert.

As a historian, I immediately picked up on the Spartan and Roman overtones within how the Klingons were written in both ST: TOS and ST: TNG. The Klingons saw virtue in the same thing the Romans, (with some overtones from the Etruscans, Vikings, and other warlike civilizations), and Spartans did (and to some extent, the Japanese Samurai, too) - honor, courage, sacrifice. Surrender to an enemy was considered as a disgrace and defeat was the ultimate personal humiliation. Granted, there were exceptions - facing one's enemies in the face of imminent defeat (such as the case of the 300 Spartans and fighting to the death anyway, or the Japanese "Divine Wind" pilot from World War II performing the ultimate sacrifice for his emperor) was considered as the most glorious way to die.

So, with that said, Gene Roddenberry was a well-educated man and often pulled his inspiration for ST: TOS and ST:TNG from the best and worst of Earth's colorful history. The Klingon Empire was a warlike empire and pulled extensively from both Rome and Sparta. For a Klingon, immortality was not just arriving with honor in Suto'vo'qor (their version of the Viking Valhalla), but to reach immortality was to mean that future generations of Klingons would sing songs about them and tell stories about their great heroic deeds for generations to come (Remember Kahless, anyone?). We still talk about the great Spartan 300, Leonidas I (the famous Spartan king and general), Alexander the Great (not necessarily as a Spartan but as the heir to Spartan greatness as the conqueror of the Greek world).

Rome adopted a lot of Greek ways, particularly how one achieved immortality. We still speak of great Roman generals, Scipio Africanus, Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, Cato the Elder, Titus Quinctius Flamininus, and I'll spare you the lesser known ones and skip to Julius Caesar, and Marcus Antonius. Within the traditional Hellenistic world, they achieved immortality because we still speak of their names today although their bodies are long gone. For Gene Roddenberry's vision, this is what it would be for a Klingon - this is what honor and immortality means - to be remembered for your heroic deeds long after your body is gone.

My students in 21st century America have a hard time coming to terms in this version of immortality and importance in honor and value placed in courage by a people who lived over two thousand years ago. But once you grasp the basics of the Hellenistic Greek and Roman world of the Classical Era, you can understand the Klingons and the Romulans of Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek pretty well.

[Spacescifi]

59 minutes ago, cubinator said:

Yeah I think they do get land and their family's influence over the Empire expands.

 

Although the problem with that is Gowron is a notoriously crafty politician.

 

The more land and honor your family gets, the more Gowron will start eyeing you with suspicion to off you somehow in the worst case scenario, or in a best case scenario as a possible successor.

 

So glory and honor is good for a klingon. But too much honor and you will either be dealt summarily with or you must wait till the powers that be die, or defeat them yourself.

 

So if don't want your status quo changed dramatically you limit how much glory you receive. Cause too much will get you either killed or promoted to Chancellor!

 

For a klingon, life is a competition, not a journey, though the old ones tend to be more chill.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Spacescifi

[adsii1970]

58 minutes ago, cubinator said:

Yeah I think they do get land and their family's influence over the Empire expands.

This is part of it. The more honor your family gets, the more demand there are from the smaller, less powerful families for your family to be moved into key positions. This again, is taken from Sparta where less influential families would support newer "heroic" families to push the older aristocracy to the side. They hoped that by doing this, the newer families arriving into power would remember those who supported them.

[Spacescifi]

6 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Honor. Glory. Immortality.

History nerd alert. History nerd alert.

As a historian, I immediately picked up on the Spartan and Roman overtones within how the Klingons were written in both ST: TOS and ST: TNG. The Klingons saw virtue in the same thing the Romans, (with some overtones from the Etruscans, Vikings, and other warlike civilizations), and Spartans did (and to some extent, the Japanese Samurai, too) - honor, courage, sacrifice. Surrender to an enemy was considered as a disgrace and defeat was the ultimate personal humiliation. Granted, there were exceptions - facing one's enemies in the face of imminent defeat (such as the case of the 300 Spartans and fighting to the death anyway, or the Japanese "Divine Wind" pilot from World War II performing the ultimate sacrifice for his emperor) was considered as the most glorious way to die.

So, with that said, Gene Roddenberry was a well-educated man and often pulled his inspiration for ST: TOS and ST:TNG from the best and worst of Earth's colorful history. The Klingon Empire was a warlike empire and pulled extensively from both Rome and Sparta. For a Klingon, immortality was not just arriving with honor in Suto'vo'qor (their version of the Viking Valhalla), but to reach immortality was to mean that future generations of Klingons would sing songs about them and tell stories about their great heroic deeds for generations to come (Remember Kahless, anyone?). We still talk about the great Spartan 300, Leonidas I (the famous Spartan king and general), Alexander the Great (not necessarily as a Spartan but as the heir to Spartan greatness as the conqueror of the Greek world).

Rome adopted a lot of Greek ways, particularly how one achieved immortality. We still speak of great Roman generals, Scipio Africanus, Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, Cato the Elder, Titus Quinctius Flamininus, and I'll spare you the lesser known ones and skip to Julius Caesar, and Marcus Antonius. Within the traditional Hellenistic world, they achieved immortality because we still speak of their names today although their bodies are long gone. For Gene Roddenberry's vision, this is what it would be for a Klingon - this is what honor and immortality means - to be remembered for your heroic deeds long after your body is gone.

My students in 21st century America have a hard time coming to terms in this version of immortality and importance in honor and value placed in courage by a people who lived over two thousand years ago. But once you grasp the basics of the Hellenistic Greek and Roman world of the Classical Era, you can understand the Klingons and the Romulans of Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek pretty well.

 

By that measure then all the greeks and romans would envy Mozart.

 

Since though he died you can still sense his personality through his music.

 

One of his more colorful pieces that shows this is called A Musical Joke, though Mozatt originally name it A Little Musical Fun.

No other composer I know of that made music that mocked his genre... or those that could not play instruments well@

If mozart came back rom the dead someone full-time would have to be assigned to keep his ego in check, since he is revered to the present day by those that know him... through his music.

 

Also I am sure Wolfgang would try to cash in on all of his stuff we can get for free nowadays lol.

[adsii1970]

2 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

By that measure then all the greeks and romans would envy Mozart.

No. Not really - and for a variety of reasons.  But consider this, Mozart is one among many. There's also Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, and others - but the main problem is they have not done great heroic deeds in battle that would distinguish them. Don't get me wrong (I was originally a music theory and composition major in college the first time around), the composers are really awesome in what they did. But in the Greek and Roman world, it would not have been honorable. Within the world of the Spartans and Romans, all honor and glory comes from the battlefield. It comes from facing an opponent. It comes from selfless sacrifice to achieve a greater good or in the defense of the kingdom.

Spartans were not much into the arts and saw it as frivolous and a waste of resources. The Athenians would agree with you about arts being valuable. The Romans would agree that the art is valuable but the artist would not be regarded as valuable. Art, in the Roman world, was valuable; the artist was not as important.

7 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Since though he died you can still sense his personality through his music.

You can do this through nearly every composer. Handel was very proper and took a lot of personal pride in his music and in his royal commission. You can hear it in his "Music for the Royal Fireworks" and "Water Music." He also took his beliefs in God seriously and can hear his faith in "The Messiah"

Tchaikovsky was very proud of Russian history, which is evident in "The Overture of 1812" and of you can find the original score performance which includes the vocals and real cannon, you can hear the Russian hymns, gypsy songs, and cannon celebrating the defeat of Napoleon's invasion into Russia. Which you can hear especially well as the French anthem, "La Marseillaise" has many variations, always giving way to Russian folk songs, cannon shots, and finally the cathedral bells and the sounds of "hasty retreat."

 

33 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Although the problem with that is Gowron is a notoriously crafty politician.

 

The more land and honor your family gets, the more Gowron will start eyeing you with suspicion to off you somehow in the worst case scenario, or in a best case scenario as a possible successor.

Gowron has read Roman history. And we know from Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country:

Chances are, Gowron knows all too well what happened to Caesar. Do you blame him from being weary of fast-rising rivals?

[Spacescifi]

32 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

No. Not really - and for a variety of reasons.  But consider this, Mozart is one among many. There's also Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, and others - but the main problem is they have not done great heroic deeds in battle that would distinguish them. Don't get me wrong (I was originally a music theory and composition major in college the first time around), the composers are really awesome in what they did. But in the Greek and Roman world, it would not have been honorable. Within the world of the Spartans and Romans, all honor and glory comes from the battlefield. It comes from facing an opponent. It comes from selfless sacrifice to achieve a greater good or in the defense of the kingdom.

Spartans were not much into the arts and saw it as frivolous and a waste of resources. The Athenians would agree with you about arts being valuable. The Romans would agree that the art is valuable but the artist would not be regarded as valuable. Art, in the Roman world, was valuable; the artist was not as important.

You can do this through nearly every composer. Handel was very proper and took a lot of personal pride in his music and in his royal commission. You can hear it in his "Music for the Royal Fireworks" and "Water Music." He also took his beliefs in God seriously and can hear his faith in "The Messiah"

Tchaikovsky was very proud of Russian history, which is evident in "The Overture of 1812" and of you can find the original score performance which includes the vocals and real cannon, you can hear the Russian hymns, gypsy songs, and cannon celebrating the defeat of Napoleon's invasion into Russia. Which you can hear especially well as the French anthem, "La Marseillaise" has many variations, always giving way to Russian folk songs, cannon shots, and finally the cathedral bells and the sounds of "hasty retreat."

 

Gowron has read Roman history. And we know from Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country:

Chances are, Gowron knows all too well what happened to Caesar. Do you blame him from being weary of fast-rising rivals?

 

Well the thing about Mozart is a made so much music it is profound, and much of it is easy on the ears to... which I cannot say boom boom Ludwig Van Beethoven.

 

I have listened to mozart for over a decade and STILL find music of his I have never heard before that strikes me as quite good and profound.

 

For example his wife said in his letters that she like Mozart's fugues.

 

She likely meant for piano, and I thought so what? I had listened to all of his piano sonatas so how could anything he do top that?

Free form without sonata style that's what.

Mozart's fantasy and fugue for piano plays almost like a modern piano piece, and has some rather interesting surprises.

 

And that's after over a decade of listening to the man.

 

His stuff never gets old! It's truly immortal music. I do not tire of listening to Mozart like I do Beethoven... because Mozart is so unpredictable with his intricacies.

 

He does not simply lay theme upon theme, even though he tends to do that in his symphonies, he really mixed it up with intricate notes elsewhere.

 

Yes I love Mozart's music and hold it in higher regard than any other composer.

 

Other composers have musical gems. But mozart is like you just hit a treasure trove stash... the more you look the more you will find.

I know some great resources online so ask if you want to hear or load up on Mozart freely.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Spacescifi

[Just Jim]

I'm a big fan of Centauri opera myself. 
At the risk of crossing multi-verses, I think the Klingon's might have liked Centauri opera... and I'm sure they would have LOVED Wagner
 

Spoiler

 

In fact, to bring this back on-topic, that's my submission.
A Klingon warrior returning from a successful battle should be rewarded with land, a title, and a victory feast that includes many barrels of blood-wine, and a live Wagner performance!!!
 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Just Jim

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, Just Jim said:

I'm a big fan of Centauri opera myself. 
At the risk of crossing multi-verses, I think the Klingon's might have liked Centauri opera... and I'm sure they would have LOVED Wagner
 

  Hide contents

 

In fact, to bring this back on-topic, that's my submission.
A Klingon warrior returning from a successful battle should be rewarded with land, a title, and a victory feast that includes many barrels of blood-wine, and a live Wagner performance!!!
 

 

 

Yeah... I can see a klingon loving this... especially performed by a bunch of klingon females.

 

Since even though to us they look kind of ugly... to a klingon male they are exactly their type they like.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Spacescifi

[StrandedonEarth]

What do they get? An honorable death!

[Spacescifi]

28 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

What do they get? An honorable death!

 

In my best british accent:

"I do say the klingon political system is rigged!"

No wonder why 'Klingon promotions' are a popular way of ranking up in their society.

If you are an old trek fan you know what that is.

[StrandedonEarth]

6 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

 

In my best british accent:

"I do say the klingon political system is rigged!"

No wonder why 'Klingon promotions' are a popular way of ranking up in their society.

If you are an old trek fan you know what that is.

I’m guessing it’s similar to the kzinti “Rrrank above you died, now you’rrre it! Urr…”

[cubinator]

41 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

What do they get? An honorable death!

And glory as a fallen warrior in Sto'Vo'Kor!

[Spacescifi]

43 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

I’m guessing it’s similar to the kzinti “Rrrank above you died, now you’rrre it! Urr…”

Kind of... but klingon deaths of superiors are seldom accidental so... although the most honorable way is to challenge them to honorable combat.

41 minutes ago, cubinator said:

And glory as a fallen warrior in Sto'Vo'Kor!

 

It all makes sense now. A warrior race with easy to blow up ships and warriors obsessed with dying in combat.

 

I suppose their whole society would collapse if they tried to play it more... fair.

Since too many warriors would survive to vie for top dog.

[StrandedonEarth]

5 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Kind of... but klingon deaths of superiors are seldom accidental so... although the most honorable way is to challenge them to honorable combat.

Oh right. As opposed to the Bothan way of "Stab 'em when they stumble!"

[kerbiloid]

Quote

What Should A Klingon Be Rewarded With?

A day without spikes inside the collar, because he deserves that by having proven his discipline.

But fifty lashes to prevent him from getting pampered from this easing.

But the lash he can select himself, because it's a an honour, not a punishment.

Also his daily ration should be given to other Klingons to show his contempt of opulence.

No land award, because all the land is Klingons', and the more land the Klingons have, the more land his exact family rules.

No title award, because "Klingon" is the highest title itself.

No medals, because the scars from the lash are the best Klingon medals.

***

6 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

Romans, (with some overtones from the Etruscans, Vikings, and other warlike civilizations), and Spartans 
Surrender to an enemy was considered as a disgrace and defeat was the ultimate personal humiliation.

Richard The Lionheart and John The Good are guilty looking at each other, red from shame.
It's so good to be rich and able to pay a ransom when captured, rather than poor but brave.

The vikings agree with them, as the viking gods do this all the way.
Good to be a viking god and pay a ransom.
Bad to be a real viking, when all your hailed "gold" is actually a handful of silver and three bags of turnip.

Also the pre-cinematographic samurai were originally poor but armed frontiersmen like cossacks, during the Japanese expansion from continent to the Japan islands, and their opponents were local Ainu, so a surrender was not an alternative to death. And a little later were dismissed by the bourgeoisie. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by kerbiloid