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Just 1 cm before throwing this game in a bin


Ariggeldiggel
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Hello dear community,

 

sorry for being rude in the title, but I'm extremely annoyed, angry - Yes: Absolutely liquided off. I bought KSP just a week about and I'm around 90 hours playtime now. At first it was very frustrating, that the tutorials are partially buggy and so it's almost impossible to get a clue of the complexity of this game. But I worked myself through, managed to build a rocket, get into orbit, land on the moon of kerbit and even managed to build two space stations with around 30 flights and coupling processes in order to build it together in space.

It is a total pain in the a** for me, even though I'm enjoying the game, because nobody explains you just anything of it. A friend of mine started KSP the same time I did and he broke his keyboard and mouse because he didn't manage to understand even one single thing. He wasn't even able to get into orbit after 40 hours. However, I'm trying to install a moon base with ore mining, so I can refuel my ships at the space station around the moon before landing on the moon, because I'm not able to get even close to have enough fuel with any rocket bigger than a cockroach to land on that piece of rock. It's even extremely hard for me to have even enough fuel to get into Kerbits orbit. And now? In 3 days, over 30 hours, I've built 7 different version of my mining payload, because none of them were even close to get into space. On top of that I build 19 different version of carrier rockets, to get it up. They were too heavy, didn't get into orbit, didn't get to mun, weren't landable or in most cases: Didn't have enough fuel. This HORRIBLE!!!! fuel thing is driving me way more than insane. I always don't have enough fuel. 90% of the time in that game I only run out of fuel. Now I have enough fuel, enough Delta V, enough TWR to hopefully manage to get this thing to mun. And what now? Now that thing flips and flips and flips and flips. Aerodynamics are fine and it flips. Do you maybe have any ideas how to fix it?

I'm so close to finally raging and throwing my computer out of the window - Just to throw napalm afterwards.

 

Greetings

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Hello @Ariggeldiggel and welcome to the forum!

Space is hard!

The forum community is a wonderful place to learn, commiserate with others over your failures, learn, interact with other enthusiasts of the game, and learn.

There is an old joke that KSP doesn't really have a learning curve.  It's more of a learning wall.  :)

If you post a pic of your spacecraft here in this thread we will try and help you understand the design issues you face.  You can post a pic by uploading it to a free image service such as imgur.com (they do not require an creating an account to use the service) and paste the link to the pic into your post here and the pic will appear.

There is a wealth of information both on this forum and in the KSP Wiki.

It takes a LOT of learning and a lot of playing to get good at this game.  But the joy of that first Mun landing makes it all worth it.  When I first landed on the Mun I jumped out of my chair and danced around the room for a bit, I was so excited.

I wish you the greatest success and, once again, welcome.


Happy landings!

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1 hour ago, Ariggeldiggel said:

Hello dear community,

It is a total pain in the a** for me, even though I'm enjoying the game, because nobody explains you just anything of it.

this is your first post into the forum. You will find out that, if you ask for stuff here, there will be people piling up to answer you in full.

yes, the game has a steep learning curve - rocket science is difficult, not much to do about it - and the tutorials aren't enough. Myself, I found that the best way to learn is to spam this subforum for answers until you learn.

 

Now, you did not ask for anything specific, but you underlined several problems, and I'll try to give some answers.

First, since you often run out of fuel, you should meet the deltaV map. it details how much fuel you should need to go somewhere

3IT90dW.png

For example, to land on Mun you should need 3400 m/s to orbit kerbin, plus 860 to get a Mun intercept, plus 280 to circularize around Mun, plus 580 to land. Once you landed, you'll need another 580 to return to orbit, plus 280 to leave Mun and get a Kerbin orbit with a periapsis inside the atmosphere, and once you're in the atmosphere you can aerobrake the rest of the way. So, 4980 m/s total. 5500 m/s should be a reasonable target, including some extra for safety. If you need a lot more than that, something is inefficient. Maybe your Mun descent is inefficient, or maybe your Kerbin orbit (note: if you orbit by flying straight up and then straight laterally, and you spend over 4 km/s that way, you should look up gravity turn), or perhaps you botched some orbital manuever.

Anyway, that's the first step to calculating how much deltaV you should plan.

Second, fuel budget is always tight in space. If you want to have a bigger lander, you'll need a proportionally bigger rocket. I have no idea what you are trying to launch, but maybe if you can't get enough fuel on Mun and you're not being inefficient you just need a bigger rocket in the first place.

Third, if your rocket flips, then aerodinamics are NOT fine. By definition, if they are fine, then your rocket won't flip. A particularly well-built rocket will reach orbit steering itself without even SAS activated. It may look fine, I concede that. Anyway, you need low drag in front, and more drag in the bottom. If you post a picture, we are more than likely to be able to figure out the problem.

As a general rule of thumb, if you want to know why a certain vehicle is not working, you should post a few pictures of it here (imgur is an excellent free hosting site) and ask.

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Welcome!

Depending on what type of learner you are, you can also watch tutorials on youtube. What really helped me was Scott Manley's tutorials. Some parts are a bit outdated, but I still think it grasps the fundamentals. There are ofcourse other tutorials also (by mister Manley such as this one, and by others).

Don't hesitate to ask questions, and don't give up, we've all been there!

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Hey guys,

 

first of all I want to say sorry for my temper. Usually I'm way more relaxed, but this game has the perfect potential to let me freak out. After some time working and having distance to the topic I managed to calm down. Maybe it's the german genes, who knows?

2 hours ago, Starhawk said:

Hello @Ariggeldiggel and welcome to the forum!

If you post a pic of your spacecraft here in this thread we will try and help you understand the design issues you face.  You can post a pic by uploading it to a free image service such as imgur.com (they do not require an creating an account to use the service) and paste the link to the pic into your post here and the pic will appear.

There is a wealth of information both on this forum and in the KSP Wiki.

It takes a LOT of learning and a lot of playing to get good at this game.  But the joy of that first Mun landing makes it all worth it.  When I first landed on the Mun I jumped out of my chair and danced around the room for a bit, I was so excited.

Happy landings!

Thank you very much. I'll post the pictures of my "rockets" afterwards. I've to admit that it's a good feeling to be succesful. The first launch, the first not-exploding rocket, the first time getting into an orbit, the first coupling and also the first moon landing. But after that 1 minute of joy there always without any kind of exception follow hours of frustration. Often enough about not being able even to repeat what was reached before. I already read a ton of information in the KSP Wiki, but unfortunately I'm not able to fix the problems I got with the fuel and my current rocket problem.

 

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

You will find out that, if you ask for stuff here, there will be people piling up to answer you in full.

The more information the better. I already hopped into some astrophysic lecture notes from my old university where I studied (Studied economics but have access to everything here) in order to find something helpful understanding the game: apsis, apoapsis, periapsis, prograde, retrograde, normal, antinormal... - All completely new terms for me. I want to understand everything and not just learn by heart or memorize. But that image you posted is extremeley helpful, thank you very much for that!

 

1 hour ago, modus said:

Welcome!

Depending on what type of learner you are, you can also watch tutorials on youtube. What really helped me was Scott Manley's tutorials. Some parts are a bit outdated, but I still think it grasps the fundamentals. There are ofcourse other tutorials also (by mister Manley such as this one, and by others).

Don't hesitate to ask questions, and don't give up, we've all been there!

Hey mate, thank you very much. I already watched about 20 to 30 videos from different creators. Unfortunately nobody could help me with this particular problem. Also watched almost the whole guide series from Mike Aben.

 

Here the pictures of the remaining rockets. I already deleted the complete failures, so that is the rest:

 

https://imgur.com/a/vUP688d

Trüffelschwein 1: Not enough fuel, doesn't flip

 

https://imgur.com/a/fF44XP6

Trüffelschwein 2: Not enough fuel, flips when steering before leaving the atmosphre

 

https://imgur.com/a/g42AhxO

Trüffelschwein 3: Not enough fuel and flips, because of no aerodynamic wings

 

https://imgur.com/a/GiIepRh

Trüffelschwein 4: Works fine, was even landed on the moon until I realized the payload has the wrong containers to save the mined ore (Extremely frustrating...)

 

https://imgur.com/a/Ge9WQ2Y

Trüffelschwein 5: Flips and brings me to enrage...

 

Thanks for your replies..

Greetings

 

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14 minutes ago, Ariggeldiggel said:

PS: Here also a picture of Trüffelschwein 5 in the previous version. I put the aerodynamic spot right unter the mass spot. It flips, no matter what. 

https://imgur.com/a/voGxpBe

I can't tell for certain, but it looks like the fuel line you have on the bottom of the tanks is flowing from the center tank to the outer tank.  I also cannot tell if you have this mirrored on the other side of the craft, or what direction it is pointing if you do.  But if this is the only fuel line, or if you have one on the other side but it is flowing from the outer tank to the inner tank, then you are shifting the center of mass in an unnatural way, pushing all the fuel - and thus, all the mass - to one side of the craft.  I'm also seeing that you have fins on the rocket, but they are halfway up the center spire.  Try putting those closer to the bottom of that spire, just above where the engine connects.  And on that note, you don't need the Delta wings; the Basic Fin is more than enough.

In addition to all of that, I'd like to add to what @king of nowhere said about dV requirements for a craft.  For starters, the amount of dV you have on a given craft will be different depending upon several factors, not the least of which is where you are at.  You have less dV when you are on the ground on Kerbin or Eve due to gravity, but that same amount of fuel will provide far more dV in a vacuum.  You can use several different tools to see the dV you have in a given stage based on where that stage will be active by clicking on the dV button in the lower right corner in the VAB, and then changing the body (it defaults to Kerbin) and where you are (I believe it defaults to Altitude).  This way you can actually see how much fuel in m/s you have for a particular part of the journey.

As an aside, you could also install MechJeb, KER, or a host of other mods that give you the dV information as well.

Secondly, and I cannot state this hard or fast enough:  The engine you are using in a given stage has a dramatic impact upon both dV and the amount of thrust you have in a given environment.  When launching from Kerbin or the surface of a planet/body with gravity, you want an engine that has a high thrust at ASL.  Conversely, when you are in a vacuum or on a body that has very low gravity, you want an engine with high thrust in VAC.  And engines that perform well in one area do not necessarily perform well in the other.  I don't know what you are using for your transfer from LKO to, say, the Mun, because the image you provided doesn't show that.  But, as an example (and this is a very lousy example that I highly doubt you are using), you wouldn't have a pair of Spiders on your transfer stage trying to push a several ton lander from LKO to Mun, right?  Same principle for all transfers; you need an engine that squeezes out the most dV possible while being powerful enough to do burns quickly instead of taking forever.

As far as dV and engines and landings go...that just takes time.  Landing isn't overly difficult, but it can take some time to get down and get it right.  It took me months of using MechJeb's landing module and watching what it was doing before I was able to land.  Mostly.  Somewhat.  And I still botch it ALL THE TIME.  You know how you say something is easy and brag about it and then you try to do it and you bork it?  Minmus for me, almost every time.  This is why Quicksave is my friend.  But I digress.  The important thing here is that it takes time and patience to learn how to do it, and even when you do you will still make mistakes.  Don't let it get you down.  Think about what you already have learned how to do since you started (rocket design, launch, terminology, orbit, transfer, etc.) and you'll see that you have already come a long way.  Keep it up!  Keep pushing!  And if you need help?  Ask!  :)

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Posted (edited)

Hey the fuel lines go from the outer tanks to the central tank, so that if the two outer one are empty I throw them off. It's on both sides. The rocket always flips up to the western side, while I go for the east side. It would be great to just get above 15km but that's the maximum I can reach. Everything else should work after that...

Edited by Ariggeldiggel
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5 hours ago, Ariggeldiggel said:

I've built 7 different version of my mining payload, because none of them were even close to get into space. On top of that I build 19 different version of carrier rockets, to get it up. They were too heavy, didn't get into orbit, didn't get to mun, weren't landable or in most cases: Didn't have enough fuel. [...] Now I have enough fuel, enough Delta V, enough TWR to hopefully manage to get this thing to mun. And what now? Now that thing flips and flips and flips and flips.

You're doing it right, as far as I can tell:

  1. Define a goal
  2. Design a craft
  3. Try to fly it
  4. If it doesn't work, try to understand what went wrong and repeat from step 2

Each time you iterate this cycle, you learn something about how the game works (and usually something about aerodynamics or rocketry or orbital mechanics). Figuring out what went wrong can be challenging, but the game always gives you clues, and folks here are only too happy to help. The trick is to not expect immediate success, but rather to allow yourself the space and patience to try something and fail and learn from it. Eventually you will have learned enough to achieve your current goals and much more.

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15 minutes ago, Ariggeldiggel said:

Hey the fuel lines go from the outer tanks to the central tank, so that if the two outer one are empty I throw them off. It's on both sides. The rocket always flips up to the western side, while I go for the east side. It would be great to just get above 15km but that's the maximum I can reach. Everything else should work after that...

Can you upload the actual craft file, or paste the contents of the craft file here as text?  Perhaps one of us can test the craft ourselves to help you out?

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1 minute ago, HebaruSan said:

You're doing it right, as far as I can tell:

  1. Define a goal
  2. Design a craft
  3. Try to fly it
  4. If it doesn't work, try to understand what went wrong and repeat from step 2

Each time you iterate this cycle, you learn something about how the game works (and usually something about aerodynamics or rocketry or orbital mechanics). Figuring out what went wrong can be challenging, but the game always gives you clues, and folks here are only too happy to help. The trick is to not expect immediate success, but rather to allow yourself the space and patience to try something and fail and learn from it. Eventually you will have learned enough to achieve your current goals and much more.

Hey,

yeah but I've reached a point where it's enough for me. Enough fails and enough "doesn't work". It's a point where it starts to work or I'm done with it. After so many hours with not a single success it's not a question for "When will it work?". The point is reached, where the success, if it comes, can't become even close satisfying enough, that all that frustration and anger feels worth it. Now it's just kind of "reach the goal so it's fulfilled". And it does not feel reachable to be honest. I'm sitting on this, let's be honest quite simpe an primitive, project since over 30 hours now. 

9 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Can you upload the actual craft file, or paste the contents of the craft file here as text?  Perhaps one of us can test the craft ourselves to help you out?

Of course! But.. How can I do that?^^

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3 minutes ago, Ariggeldiggel said:

yeah but I've reached a point where it's enough for me. Enough fails and enough "doesn't work". It's a point where it starts to work or I'm done with it. After so many hours with not a single success it's not a question for "When will it work?"

We all reach that point with this game at some point in time. Heck for the longest time, I couldn't achieve orbit - at all.  Take a break, spend a few days watching Scott Manley videos. I also watched a lot of videos that covered basic avionics and aerodynamics (and in complete disclosure, I have a Ph.D. in American history/foreign policy, not rocket science), before I even understood the basics of what I was doing wrong. It wasn't the game - it was me.

8 minutes ago, Ariggeldiggel said:

The point is reached, where the success, if it comes, can't become even close satisfying enough, that all that frustration and anger feels worth it. Now it's just kind of "reach the goal so it's fulfilled".

Oh, believe me - it's always worth it. Once you've fulfilled your first goal, whether it is a sandbox goal you've made for yourself (when I first began playing the game, that's all there was), a science or career game where you have a contract to complete, the first contract completed is always a big personal accomplishment. I understand you're frustrated; KSP has a high and difficult learning curve. Maybe playing the career mode or science mode isn't for you. Try the sandbox mode and set your own goals. Become familiar with what the various parts can do. Don't be afraid to experiment with different designs. One thing about Kerbal Space Program is it is flexible enough to  not only be a game about space exploration, but you can do a lot of other neat stuff with it.

18 minutes ago, Ariggeldiggel said:

And it does not feel reachable to be honest. I'm sitting on this, let's be honest quite simple an primitive, project since over 30 hours now. 

There's no time limit for KSP. Take things at your own pace. :)

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20 minutes ago, Ariggeldiggel said:

Of course! But.. How can I do that?^^

The best way is to upload the .craft file to a file sharing site such as Google Drive, make sure it has public permissions, and share the link here... or by using a KSP craft sharing site like KerbalX.  Pasting the text of the craft file into a post can be problematic, especially for larger ships as they can be hundreds of lines long.

The *.craft files are located in <YourKSPFolder>/game/saves/<NameOfYourSave>/Ships/VAB(or SPH depending on where you built it)/thisshipwontfly.craft

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1 hour ago, Ariggeldiggel said:

https://imgur.com/a/vUP688d

Trüffelschwein 1: Not enough fuel, doesn't flip

 

https://imgur.com/a/fF44XP6

Trüffelschwein 2: Not enough fuel, flips when steering before leaving the atmosphre

 

https://imgur.com/a/g42AhxO

Trüffelschwein 3: Not enough fuel and flips, because of no aerodynamic wings

 

https://imgur.com/a/GiIepRh

Trüffelschwein 4: Works fine, was even landed on the moon until I realized the payload has the wrong containers to save the mined ore (Extremely frustrating...)

 

https://imgur.com/a/Ge9WQ2Y

Trüffelschwein 5: Flips and brings me to enrage...

 

Thanks for your replies..

Greetings

 

so, when you mentioned that you couldn't get enough fuel for a rocket "bigger than a cockroach", i assumed you were using minimalistic rockets with a small command pod and nothing else. that you were launching 20-30 tons rockets.

You are launching stuff with multiple mammoths.... you should be able to put into orbit many tens of tons with each launch.

Maybe you are just trying to put too much payload into orbit anyway?

do you do the gravity turn manuever? especially with rockets so big, you should start turning eastward at around 50 m/s, and reach 45° inclination around 500 m/s for maximum efficiency. even if you botch it somewhat, though, it's not a big deal, you lose 100-200 m/s maximum. You need to botch it badly to lose more.

Another thing to check is the TWR: if it's too low (say, 1.2 or something similar) the rocket will lift very slowly, and you'll lose a lot of fuel hovering there (it's called gravity drag).

But, most important, I see that the  Trüffelschwein 1 only has 2400 m/s before the fairing is removed. Assuming the fairing contains your payload, of course you can't orbit, it should need 3400 m/s on a well-optimized launch.

The 5 flips because you have a huge payload with terrible aerodinamics. It would need a huge fairing, but it's still very draggy. Really, that kind of very large payload is a nightmare. I launched one that big a couple months ago, and it took me a day of trying, and i'm good at this game.

 

So perhaps what I can suggest is, take things more calmly, you are trying to put the cart before the horses. Get good with simple ships first.

Try maybe with basic designs like this

NDRX2ho.png

before you try the really huge stuff. Huge stuff is way more difficult.

From what I can see, you started the game and immediately went for the biggest, most showy stuff. It's like someone trying to learn to drive and picking the fastest racing car.

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Posted (edited)

The biggest joke: I can't manage to get this little mining thing up over 20km. But this monument I managed to put into the moons orbit:

https://imgur.com/a/9VBr3qy

I don't know what's going on there. And this ways around 2.000.0000 tons...

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

The 5 flips because you have a huge payload with terrible aerodinamics. It would need a huge fairing, but it's still very draggy. Really, that kind of very large payload is a nightmare. I launched one that big a couple months ago, and it took me a day of trying, and i'm good at this game.

So what you're telling me is, that it's not only the center of lift that matters but also where the wings are placed? So if the center of lift is optimal it doesn't mean the aerodynamics are optimal? What I don't understand is, if thaT's the case: Why does it flip with a good COL and also an aerodynamic hull around the payload?

Edited by Ariggeldiggel
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3 minutes ago, Ariggeldiggel said:

The biggest joke: I can't manage to get this little mining thing up over 20km. But this monument I managed to put into the moons orbit:

https://imgur.com/a/9VBr3qy

I don't know what's going on there. And this ways around 2.000.0000 tons...

can't be 2000000 tons. you have 5 mammoths, those will lift at most 1500 tons.

 

but the biggest joke is that you're trying to launch that ridiculous stuff with 90 hours of gameplay under your belt. I had well over 1000 hours before I could tackle that kind of stuff

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3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

can't be 2000000 tons. you have 5 mammoths, those will lift at most 1500 tons.

 

but the biggest joke is that you're trying to launch that ridiculous stuff with 90 hours of gameplay under your belt. I had well over 1000 hours before I could tackle that kind of stuff

Okay, i read it wrong. It's 1.577 tons, not 1.577.000 tons. The comma/point problem, sorry about that^^ 

Well. This big stuff worked to get up there... It's not even the biggest object flowing around in my orbits. I already did everything with smaller rockets. I landed on the moon with a small rocket about 20 to 30 hours after buying the game. Now I just wanted to start building an infrastructure - Research stations and fuel stations around kerbit and mun as well as satellites. Kerbit already got a research and fuel station, kerbit and mun have each 2 satellites and the mun got a station that combines research and fuel. Only thing is missing is a mining spot on the mun aswell as a real mun base.

That's my kerbit research station for example:

https://imgur.com/a/HSeNWBY

That was a good sequence of coupling trainings. With some fails and so on it took me around 15 couple processes to build it together in space. After that I saw somebody on youtube who shot a whole station up in space and thought "Wanna do that to". After that the mun station was created that you can see above.

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Here's something I used to do when I wanted to get large, unruly payloads up in one launch.  The big problem with doing it the "realistic" way is that even if you get the whole thing in a fairing, you still end up with the majority of the drag up front and the weight in the back.  But this is KSP.  You don't have to pander to realistic design philosophy.

So I would put the big payload in a fairing in the middle, and surround the whole thing with whole-height boosters.  Wasn't sleek nor pretty, but it worked.

middlepayload.png

middleship.png

Note: If anything looks weird, it's because these screenshots were taken from a lightly modded 1.3 version of the game.

 

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58 minutes ago, Ariggeldiggel said:

Here you go: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhlFszFINTbFb4fdyoV0HOi3YoU?e=c07GZI

The craft file should be in there

Downloaded...and I can't open the craft due to a part on the command module (spotlight3) that I don't have.  Did you build this with any mod parts?  Or are there parts in 1.12 that I don't have in 1.8?

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1 minute ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Downloaded...and I can't open the craft due to a part on the command module (spotlight3) that I don't have.  Did you build this with any mod parts?  Or are there parts in 1.12 that I don't have in 1.8?

I don't use any mods. I just have 1 dlc, it's the making history expansion. Maybe because of that?

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5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, the game has a steep learning curve - rocket science is difficult, not much to do about it - and the tutorials aren't enough. Myself, I found that the best way to learn is to spam this subforum for answers until you learn.

I learned through trial and error.

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Okay, now I'm really sad. I bit the bullet and built it way, way smaller. The end? It does the same. Flips to west, when I turn to east. No matter what I do......

https://imgur.com/a/jKzDFHe

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

No, I've got both DLC.  Not sure why that error is coming up.  Well, I hope someone else can take a peek at this craft file!

I removed the spotlights, so it should work for you now: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhlFszFINTbFcFvzXUTIexezecE?e=EBb7C7

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