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Blockchain and KSP2


Poodmund
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Blockchain and KSP2  

158 members have voted

  1. 1. Simple question here: Would you want anything blockchain related finding its way into KSP2, at release or further down the line?

    • Yes
      2
    • I do not care either way
      7
    • No
      149


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Feel free to discuss with civility.

Last year, Valve banned blockchain games, including those using cryptocurrency and NFTs, from being hosted on Steam due to their gambling/selling policies involving items with real world money. I wonder if that could influence developer's feelings with regards to this subject.

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No. 

NFTs are an amazing technology. Art and gaming items are probably the most wasteful, useless way to implement those technologies to force fake digital scarcity at the cost of computer work hours. 

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This is one of the few things that would make me instantly pass on KSP2.

There are good uses of cryptography and public ledgers in video games. But none of it needs to be distributed. Absolutely nothing in any video game has any business being attached to a blockchain. Which means, any time you see a game using a blockchain, at the absolute minimum, the developers have chosen an option that is explicitly harmful to environment for no gain other than using buzzwords. Potentially worse, there have been enough outright scams involving blockchain. So at best, it means the developers have no idea what they're doing, and possible implications only get worse from there. Either way, I want nothing to do with it and will not willingly contribute to any product going this route.

And I sympathize with some smaller startup studios, because I get to deal with a CEO who's constantly exposed to dozens of crypto startups who got VC money to push blockchain as a product, and I have to keep explaining to said CEO why we don't need that technology, and why for every single "benefit" we can get the same exact functionality cheaper and without dumping literal tons of CO2 into the atmosphere. But "everyone's doing it," is a very bad reason to do things, and I am appalled that there CTOs and engineering VPs out there willing to go along with this either because of peer pressure or because they're literally getting payed to.

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I'd really hope that the KSP 2 Team and related teams decide to pass on any type of NFT related to KSP properties.

Blockchain is an exceptionally cool technology but the NFT applications of it are lackluster at best and a legitimate scam at worst. It might get better in the future but I still stand my my words against KSP 2 NFTs.

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NFTs and blockchain type things are kinda neat I guess, in that they're a new way of doing things, but it's extremely rare that "new" and "better" exist simultaneously.

I won't support devs that use said technology in their game unless it actually financially rewards me for doing so, and I don't mean the game becomes "free to play" or you get a discount because of the inclusion of said technology.

What I do mean is that you'd literally have to pay me a large sum of money for me to play any sort of game with "blockchain anything" in it. NFT or not.

Buzzwords just generate buzz. What is buzz? It's just heat. What is heat? Wasted energy.

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One of the reasons I got upset with Watch_Dogs was that Ubisoft added things into the game that could only be done online.  You had to purchase an Xbox Live account and play online in order to accomplish certain things, and if you didn't, you couldn't get certain rewards or that elusive 100% completion rating.  My first fear would be that the use of this in KSP2 would be for the devs to force people to pay for extras in order to get the best play.  I'm not talking about DLC, but rather core functionality.

The second thing here has already been mentioned by others, and that is the potential for abuse and scams related to it.  "Your account has been suspended due to malicious activity; click here to validate your crypto account to continue playing."  No thank you.  Like @K^2, I would instantly pass if this was part of the game.

On 2/11/2022 at 2:08 PM, Poodmund said:

from being hosted on Steam

This raises a question for me.  Will the game only be available on Steam?  Or will we be able to purchase through Intercepts site?

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6 hours ago, pss88 said:

"Yes - 0%"

Humanity still has a chance to survive.

You had to go and jinx it... v_v

6 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

This raises a question for me.  Will the game only be available on Steam?  Or will we be able to purchase through Intercepts site?

I don't think Intercept would be able to sell it directly. The publisher/developer relations are a lengthy topic, but tl;dr is that it would be exceptionally unorthodox for Intercept to be handling any sales directly.

Private Division has a storefront, where I would fully expect KSP2 to show up once it's up for preorders, but that storefront simply redirects you to the Steam/XBox/Playstation/Nintendo stores as appropriate. So I suspect, the PC and possible Mac/Linux version(s) will be available through Steam only.

Interestingly, KSP is up on PD store, and it does feature a DRM-free copy you can purchase from PD directly, but that must be an exception due to agreement with Squad during acquisition. I don't see this done for any newer games, so I highly doubt that this will be done for KSP2. But if there is ever a PC/Mac/Linux version that's sold directly without using an intermediate platform, like Steam, GoG, etc., that's where I'd expect it to show up.

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Adding NFT's or other crypto-nonsense is one the best and fastest ways to make sure this franchise dies at the first installment. 

They add less than nothing and make every single game or industry that uses them objectively worse in every way.

 

EDIT: 

For anyone still on the fence about NFT's and crypto, watch this video to have all your doubts quickly taken away and replaced with warranted disgust for the entire concept.

On 2/11/2022 at 11:19 PM, PDCWolf said:

NFTs are an amazing technology. 

They really aren't though. 

Edited by T1mo98
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15 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

Adding NFT's or other crypto-nonsense is one the best and fastest ways to make sure this franchise dies at the first installment. 

They add less than nothing and make every single game or industry that uses them objectively worse in every way.

 

EDIT: 

For anyone still on the fence about NFT's and crypto, watch this video to have all your doubts quickly taken away and replaced with warranted disgust for the entire concept.

They really aren't though. 

That video is an incredible piece about NFTs and Crypto in a nutshell, and I highly recommend anyone watch it. 

To add to the topic of discussion, NFTs and Crypto have no place in KSP at all, and I would immediately pass on buying KSP 2 should it have either in them. 

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In what way would it be implemented in KSP hypothetically speaking?

Any game that can be influenced with real world currency in any way or form is a pass for me. Its all a scam. If you want my money make and good game and charge me 100 euros upfront for all I care. A bit besides the point but still relevant but Take Two is already seeing backlash with Red Dead. It could be a really good game except they prefer to scam their own player base. The fact that people are afraid of being scammed by other players and think its ok to be scammed by a billion dollar company is just beyond my comprehension. Only reason GTA is still alive is because they had an existing playerbase before it. Would have been dead for ages if they started ripping people off from the start. 

Edited by dave1904
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19 hours ago, T1mo98 said:

They really aren't though. 

Don’t confuse “amazing” with “good”. A technology that exists for no reason but to destroy the environment in a vain attempt to cash in on a fad is indeed a pretty amazing technology.  I’m amazed it is still being talked about by anyone. 

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17 hours ago, dave1904 said:

Any game that can be influenced with real world currency in any way or form is a pass for me. Its all a scam.

You be you, after more than a thousand hours in TF2 (not much by tf2 standards) I don't feel scammed at all having spent some 50€ in cosmetics over the course of 6 years.

Now, microtransactions don't work well with KSP and never will, but that doesn't mean that there aren't cases in which they work without being a "scam" like you say.

On the while crypto bandwagon thought I agree that it never make sense to have them in any game (or most other applications).

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On 2/14/2022 at 9:16 AM, T1mo98 said:

They really aren't though. 

There's some nifty math behind crypto. The concept of proof of ownership via proof of knowledge stored on a public ledger is good tech, and there are good, legitimate uses of it. The problem is that what we're seeing promised and hyped is more like these ads for magnet bracelets that "improve your circulation". Yeah, magnets are amazing. Yeah, there is some great research on fluid flows interacting with magnetic fields. But that magnetic bracelet is doing nothing with your blood flow, and the person trying to sell it to you is a con artist.

When talking about NFT and blockchain tech, I think it's important to distinguish between underlying tech and places it can be used vs the product that's being pushed on the market. Because there are good and exciting things about the former, and the later is a pile of dung. And the fact that there are good and legitimate uses of technology is only accenting the fact that what we're actually seeing isn't some well-intended fiasco, but a genuine scam.

If you're running an MMO, for example, and you have items that you want to feel unique and rare, and you want people to have ability to claim ownership anonymously, for example, a public ledger with concealed identities and proof of knowledge system is a good way to achieve it. There is just no reason for that ledger to exist on a blockchain, because if your items are tied to a specific game, then that game's server should have authority to write the ledger. And even if you are pushing some sort of cross-game compatibility, you are still relying on central authority to introduce and track items, so again, that authority can simply be in charge of keeping the ledger. Making it decentralized is stupid. And if you take the blockchain out of it, you can have NFTs in all but name minus the environmental impact and minus the fraud.

Of course, artificial scarcity and FOMO in games can be exploited even without additional shady layers on top, but it's not inherently bad. It's all about how it's monetized. Getting a rare or unique item after putting in a lot of time into a game can feel rewarding and be constructive to game experience. Having it sold to you in a loot box, well, that's a different matter. But that's precisely the point I'm trying to make here. We have the tech and opportunity to use the crypto technology in games in a way that does not cause a drastic increase in power usage with every transaction, having negative environmental impact, nor encourages fraud. Just like there are good ways to use artificial scarcity in games to improve player engagement without being exploitative. And yet, we are not going that route.

Now, I don't think anybody's intentionally pushing NFTs to increase harm we're doing on environment, so the fact that people pushing them are resisting this concept makes me fully convinced that fraud is precisely the point.

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2 hours ago, K^2 said:

If you're running an MMO, for example, and you have items that you want to feel unique and rare, and you want people to have ability to claim ownership anonymously, for example, a public ledger with concealed identities and proof of knowledge system is a good way to achieve it.

That just sounds like needlessly overcomplicating the Steam Inventory system. CS:GO has managed handling unique, rare and tradeable items just fine without blockchain and NFT's.

 

I still cannot think of a single example where using blockchain technology in any way is of benefit to anyone other than developers seeking to use it to squeeze more money out of their players.

All it seeks to do is financialize even more of our lives, which is the absolute last thing we should want. I play games to have fun and as a distraction, not to have play-to-earn business models shoved down my throat... It's frankly ridiculous to me that people are even seeking ways to monetize playing video games in this way.

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2 hours ago, T1mo98 said:

That just sounds like needlessly overcomplicating the Steam Inventory system.

Specific use case, say I own a rare/unique item. I want to boast about it somewhere without revealing my account. If you have a searchable system where one can look up who owns what items, like Steam Inventory, a unique item points directly to a specific user account. In contrast, if public information is a ledger that only identifies an item and transfer date from creation and until the latest transactions, with new owner identified only by a secret unique to each transaction, then the only info you can get about an item is how many times it's been traded. But if somebody wants to prove that they are the owner, they can generate a time-stamped proof-of-knowledge code that identifies them as such. Technically, that can all be handled with dumb random tokens and server-side verification, but then you have to trust the game devs that the item is truly unique, that no shady transfers have been done, etc. With a public ledger, it's easy to verify any particular history of ownership without revealing the identities of specific players. So you get a bit more transparency about the in-game economy without compromising anyone's privacy.

Critically, absolutely none of it requires a blockchain.

Is any of this ever strictly necessary? No, not really. But it's not hard to setup and so long as you have central authority that publishes the ledger, this isn't wasteful. It can still be scammy, but only in the same way that existing digital goods systems already are. This doesn't introduce additional incentives or avenues for grift. So if a game is ready meant to have some sort of player economy and unique or rare items, why not? Computational cost of running something like this is negligible compared to your normal server overhead of running a player market. There is really no strong reason not to do this from either the tech or ethics perspective.

The problem is entirely in trying to shoehorn all of that into a blockchain. One can have a discussion on whether a blockchain is ever the right solution to any problem, but it certainly isn't for games. Blockchain requires extra engineering effort, even if it's a 3rd party integration, it wastes resources on global scale, and it invites scams due to inherent deregulation. As such, it always makes any game economy, whether in-game or actual monetization economy, strictly worse.

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On 2/15/2022 at 2:11 PM, Master39 said:

You be you, after more than a thousand hours in TF2 (not much by tf2 standards) I don't feel scammed at all having spent some 50€ in cosmetics over the course of 6 years.

Now, microtransactions don't work well with KSP and never will, but that doesn't mean that there aren't cases in which they work without being a "scam" like you say.

On the while crypto bandwagon thought I agree that it never make sense to have them in any game (or most other applications).

By influence I mean the in game economy or balance and not eye candy. Online games do need to make money for upkeep and I understand that. I have no issues with DLC or even DLC in multiplayer games. There still needs to be balance however. There are plenty of games that ask for a fair price but I think its obvious what I mean by scam. I mentioned Red Dead and GTA because of Take Two and if you are not aware the games are pay to win or whatever you want to call them. I don't know anything about TF2 so I cannot comment on DLC. If the DLC has no effect on competitive gameplay then I have no problem whatsoever. Is TF2 the game that is really difficult for new players to get into it because higher level players are so powerful? 

Thankfully I am not addicted to any game atm but I take competitive gaming really serious. Ive spent alot of money on eye candy. Its nice to look at.  I will even admit that im a hippocrite and have spend atleast 200 euros on gta in the past. I wanted something and did not want to grind. I am guilty and have played my part in why GTA has turned into the mess it is. I am not making that mistake ever again. 

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41 minutes ago, dave1904 said:

I think its obvious what I mean by scam

Yep, what you said is obvious and leaves no space for subtlety:

On 2/14/2022 at 8:59 PM, dave1904 said:

Any game that can be influenced with real world currency in any way or form is a pass for me. Its all a scam.

I was arguing that, if you start to say that no, not all game with real money interactions are scam then we're on the same page.

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