Highest Oribtal Altitude

[Minmus Taster]

23 hours ago, Beccab said:

Important news: Isaacman booked two more inspiration 4-like flights but going to the highest earth orbit ever plus with spacewalks (!) with a SpaceX-designed EVA suit, and on top of that a flight on a crewed Starship later on

- MODERATOR'S NOTE:  THIS WAS SPLIT OFF FROM THE SPACEX DISCUSSION AS IT SEEMS TO MERIT IT'S OWN THREAD.  -

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Gargamel
Moderator's note added after thread split.

[cubinator]

What do they mean by 'highest Earth orbit'? Are they going to cross the Moon? Or are they not counting lunar intercepts as Earth orbits?

[Beccab]

I see three options for the extra-vehicular activity:

1) Depressurizing the whole capsule during the EVA, like e.g. Gemini

2) if there is enough space, putting an airlock in the nosecone like e.g. the Inspiration 4 cupola

3) carrying an airlock in the trunk but attached to the second stage, so that the Dragon can rotate of 180 degrees once in orbit and dock, like e.g. the Apollo-Soyuz adapter; this way it doesn't impact the abort capabilities which are notoriously the reason the trunk on crewed flights is empty

Just now, cubinator said:

What do they mean by 'highest Earth orbit'? Are they going to cross the Moon? Or are they not counting lunar intercepts as Earth orbits?

I assume they mean higher than Gemini 11, which is the highest mission that didn't pass in the moon's SOI

[RCgothic]

37 minutes ago, cubinator said:

What do they mean by 'highest Earth orbit'? Are they going to cross the Moon? Or are they not counting lunar intercepts as Earth orbits?

Well the highest exclusively earth-centric crewed mission was Gemini XI with an orbit of 1368km x 298km altitude.

I believe the highest circular crewed mission was STS-31 at 615x613km (briefly 621km).

[RCgothic]

 

[mikegarrison]

Um, "the highest Earth orbit ever flown"? The Moon is in Earth orbit.

I'm guessing they are talking about that Gemini mission (forget which one) that set the record for altitude before the Apollo missions. 

[Beccab]

Just now, mikegarrison said:

the highest Earth orbit ever flown

...that's word by word what Gemini 11 has been called until now

[mikegarrison]

Just now, Beccab said:

...that's word by word what Gemini 11 has been called until now

By whom?

Is the Moon in Earth orbit or is it not?

[Beccab]

Just now, mikegarrison said:

By whom?

Is the Moon in Earth orbit or is it not?

[mikegarrison]

Just now, Beccab said:

That's the Wikipedia page, for the mission.

It *was* a record height when they flew it, yes. But that was before Apollo. It is no longer a record height. Just like when Bannister ran a 4 minute mile, but the record for the mile is now 3 minutes and 43 seconds.

[RCgothic]

Probably best to disambiguate by saying "highest exclusively earth-centric orbit for a crewed mission".

Edited February 14, 2022 by RCgothic

[Beccab]

Just now, mikegarrison said:

That's the Wikipedia page, for the mission.

It *was* a record height when they flew it, yes. But that was before Apollo. It is no longer a record height. Just like when Bannister ran a 4 minute mile, but the record for the mile is now 3 minutes and 43 seconds.

I can post as many pages as you need that call Gemini XI like that, plus wikipedia. There's no question that it would be more correct to specify that lunar orbit missions were further, but this doesn't change the fact that it's what Gemini XI has been called until now

[mikegarrison]

Just now, RCgothic said:

Probably best to disambiguate by saying "highest earth-centric orbit for a crewed mission".

I would accept "highest non-lunar" mission. Which is something I have seen it called, and seems much more accurate than claiming "highest Earth orbit". The latter just miserably fails to be accurate, no matter how many hits it has from Google.

I could fill up a page with Google hits about how the Moon landings were faked, but that doesn't mean they were faked.

[Beccab]

Just now, mikegarrison said:

I would accept "highest non-lunar" mission. Which is something I have seen it called, and seems much more accurate than claiming "highest Earth orbit". The latter just miserably fails to be accurate, no matter how many hits it has from Google.

I could fill up a page with Google hits about how the Moon landings were faked, but that doesn't mean they were faked.

...you asked by whom, and I have answered. If that definition is good for wikipedia and most news sites it doesn't have to be good for you, but surely it wasn't spacex to invent it

[mikegarrison]

7 minutes ago, Beccab said:

...you asked by whom, and I have answered. If that definition is good for wikipedia and most news sites it doesn't have to be good for you, but surely it wasn't spacex to invent it

I will explain one last time. To "set a record" is a temporary thing. That Gemini mission DID set a record, because it happened before Apollo. However, if you reflew it today, it would not set a record, because it would be after Apollo.

[SunlitZelkova]

7 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

I will explain one last time. To "set a record" is a temporary thing. That Gemini mission DID set a record, because it happened before Apollo. However, if you reflew it today, it would not set a record, because it would be after Apollo.

Do transfer orbits count as normal orbits?

If not, Apollo would not count as an Earth orbit mission because they all entered the Moon's SOI (obviously including Apollo 13).

Unless we go really far and claim that the lunar landings themselves were "flights" and that the astronauts were "aboard" the Moon, which orbits the Earth. The CSMs don't count for that because they orbited the Moon and not Earth.

I would assume transfer orbits are not considered identical to normal orbits. No one calls proposed Mars or Venus flybys "solar orbit missions"...

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Isn't something in orbit around the Moon, also in orbit around the Earth?

[sevenperforce]

3 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Isn't something in orbit around the Moon, also in orbit around the Earth?

Depends on how you define orbit. We are all orbiting the sun, which in turn is orbiting Sagittarius A*, and so we are also orbiting Sagittarius A*.

But one useful way of distinguishing whether you are orbiting a primary or a secondary is to look at the path described by your orbit. The path taken by a spacecraft orbiting the moon in low lunar orbit goes convex-away from Earth and concave-back towards Earth, so we can say with a fair degree of certainty that the spacecraft is orbiting the moon, which in turn is orbiting the earth. But an object at the Earth-Moon L2, or in a 1:1 resonant orbit with the moon, is always following a concave path with respect to Earth, so we say it is in an Earth orbit even if its orbit is dominated by the moon.

Of course this also suggests that because the moon’s path around the sun is always concave, it is orbiting the sun directly in an orbit dominated by Earth. 

[mikegarrison]

8 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Isn't something in orbit around the Moon, also in orbit around the Earth?

Yes.

Just now, sevenperforce said:

Of course this also suggests that because the moon’s path around the sun is always concave, it is orbiting the sun directly in an orbit dominated by Earth. 

Yeah. This is so.

A thing can be in orbit around more than one other thing. I am in solar orbit as I type this.

[sevenperforce]

1 minute ago, mikegarrison said:

Yeah. This is so.

A thing can be in orbit around more than one other thing. I am in solar orbit as I type this.

Well yes, we all are in solar orbit, but we aren’t in Earth orbit. Solar orbit is our primary orbit.

The ISS is in an Earth orbit first and solar orbit second.

A satellite at the Earth-moon L2 is in Earth orbit first and solar orbit second, but with the moon dominating its orbit of Earth.

The moon itself is in solar orbit, not earth orbit, but Earth dominates its orbit.

Which means the Apollo astronauts in low lunar orbit were in lunar orbit first, then in solar orbit, but with a solar orbit dominated by Earth.

On the other hand, if you were in a low orbit of Titan, you’d be in a Titan orbit first, then a Saturn orbit second, then a solar orbit third. 

[tater]

The orbital altitude claims seem very... reference dependent to me, lol.

They'll make a claim, highest Earth orbit... yeah TLI is also an orbit, but it's "going someplace else," and it's not like orbital mechanics is 2 body, Earth is always in the mix, even if well below noise level. I'll write that off to marketing, and let the space records people sort it out. From a human POV, the critical issue would be the altitude where some substantial % of the Earth is visible out the window, and what they are talking about ain't that high.

Edited February 15, 2022 by tater

[SunlitZelkova]

These definitions can be relative. But within people’s general perceptions, Apollo 8 was not an Earth orbital mission or a solar orbital mission. So I don’t think the Apollo stuff necessarily discounts Gemini 11.

In any case, though, I just took a look and apparently there is no “highest Earth orbital mission”. Gemini 11 holds the official record for “highest altitude in elliptical orbit”.

https://www.fai.org/records?f[0]=field_record_sport%3A2028&f[1]=field_country%3AUS&page=2

So the true record being broken by Polaris Dawn depends on whether they circularize or not.

[Gargamel]

This thread was split off from the SpaceX thread is it seems to merit it's own discussion.   Some semi-personal attacks were also removed, please keep it civil.  

[magnemoe]

13 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Do transfer orbits count as normal orbits?

If not, Apollo would not count as an Earth orbit mission because they all entered the Moon's SOI (obviously including Apollo 13).

Unless we go really far and claim that the lunar landings themselves were "flights" and that the astronauts were "aboard" the Moon, which orbits the Earth. The CSMs don't count for that because they orbited the Moon and not Earth.

I would assume transfer orbits are not considered identical to normal orbits. No one calls proposed Mars or Venus flybys "solar orbit missions"...

This, note that KSP does not count an Eve intercept as an solar orbit for stuff like experience or tourist contracts  Ran into this once by chance there I got I assumed I got an Eve intercept during and generic out of Kerbin SoI mission. Another on an Jool mission but that could well been an solar escape velocity one as motto was Jool in an year. 

[benzman]

I well remember Gemini 11.  We had all got used to guys zipping around in what is now called 'low earth orbit'.  Then along came Gemini 11 and we all thought-  Wow!