How to make planes more useful?

[jaunco325]

I am currently running into a problem: there are too many aircraft parts and I don't see any real use for them. Is there any way or mod that gives real incentives to use planes?

[Aerodynamic Kerbal]

For career mode, you might use them for the experiment over a specific point, as I think its quite hard to do it with a rocket. You can also use them to gather science from different biomes in a single flight. Maybe giving kerbals more experience?

[KerikBalm]

3 hours ago, jaunco325 said:

I am currently running into a problem: there are too many aircraft parts

How is that a problem? you think it negatively affect performance? they are all in one tab, so it doesn't really  evenclutter your part selection

3 hours ago, jaunco325 said:

and I don't see any real use for them. Is there any way or mod that gives real incentives to use planes?

Airbreathing planes get the best payload fraction to orbit. How is that not useful?

If playing career, a winged vehicle is much easier to get back to KSC for 100% recovery than a non-winged vehicle relying on parachutes or a retroburn after just decelerating in the atmosphere along a mostly ballistic path.

Wing parts can also be useful for extra drag for aerobraking when going interplanetary.

The same parts are also useful for rockets to keep them stable.

What part don't you have a use for? I'll bet I could think of one

[jaunco325]

3 hours ago, Aerodynamic Kerbal said:

For career mode, you might use them for the experiment over a specific point, as I think its quite hard to do it with a rocket. You can also use them to gather science from different biomes in a single flight. Maybe giving kerbals more experience?

yes but it is a single mission, which appears infrequently and that I can easily complete with the aeronautical parts that are unlocked at the beginning. and the biome analysis is something that is done once and then you forget.

2 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

 

Airbreathing planes get the best payload fraction to orbit. How is that not useful?

 

like rockets have payload problems. I've put hefty fuel tankers into orbit with minimal complications. and in fact, an airplane takes off on a horizontal runway so I have a serious limitation of dimensions, and weight, due to the landing gear.

2 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

 

If playing career, a winged vehicle is much easier to get back to KSC for 100% recovery than a non-winged vehicle relying on parachutes or a retroburn after just decelerating in the atmosphere along a mostly ballistic path.

 

another thing that has no relevance: as if the capsule in which the kerbals return had much value. What is it? a command module, a heat shield, used parachutes, and a science box. They are worth nothing, the recovered kerbals and science are worth 100 times more.
it is an enormous complication to put them in orbit, due to their enormous dimensions. a complication re-entering the atmosphere, without exploding, because the game only has circular heat shields. and then you have the challenge of landing the plane on the runway. all that to save you a pittance of money.
Besides, in order to land the plane and "save money" you end up adding a lot of weight to the wings, fuselage, landing gear, etc. making takeoff more expensive.

[ColdJ]

7 hours ago, jaunco325 said:

I am currently running into a problem: there are too many aircraft parts and I don't see any real use for them. Is there any way or mod that gives real incentives to use planes?

Not sure if it works with the latest but you could try this.

and this

https://spacedock.info/mod/2722/JNSQ-KSRGAP

and this

https://spacedock.info/mod/2573/Kerbin Side Remastered GAP

Edited March 11, 2022 by ColdJ

[KerikBalm]

1 hour ago, jaunco325 said:

in fact, an airplane takes off on a horizontal runway so I have a serious limitation of dimensions, and weight, due to the landing gear.

May I suggest that you are just building your airplanes wrong?

^note the above is a 100% stock craft on a 3x rescaled Kerbin^

Here's stuff at 1x (from a while ago now):

 

1 hour ago, jaunco325 said:

like rockets have payload problems

Payload fraction I said. They do have a problem with that, especially at larger scales, you did ask about mods.

 

1 hour ago, jaunco325 said:

another thing that has no relevance: as if the capsule in which the kerbals return had much value. What is it? a command module, a heat shield, used parachutes, and a science box. They are worth nothing,

Yea, recovering only the upper stage doesn't help much. You've implicitly conceeded that you are throwing away all the lower stages... which are much larger and much more expensive. With a spaceplane, you don't need to do that. In stock KSP, you can fairly easily go to from the surface of kerbin, to the surface of minmus, and back to kerbin, for 100% recovery (just the cost of fuel). The same can be done for Mun.

How much does an entire Mun or Minmus mission cost to you? because in stock KSP, with planes for me, its dirt cheap.

1 hour ago, jaunco325 said:

it is an enormous complication to put them in orbit, due to their enormous dimensions.

Its really really easy to get spaceplanes to orbit in stock KSP.  and they don't have large dimensions unless they are taking large payloads. As they have much higher payload fractions than rockets, they are smaller than a rocket for the same payload size.

1 hour ago, jaunco325 said:

a complication re-entering the atmosphere, without exploding, because the game only has circular heat shields.

Reentry is easy, the spaceplane parts have a high enough heat tolerance as it is. Heat shields aren't needed for reentering from low kerbin orbit. They are usefull for plowing into Kerbin's atmosphere from an interplanetary trajectory, or for plunging into Eve or Jool or direct aerocapture at Laythe, but just returning from Kerbin orbit? just pick parts with a decent heat tolerance.

1 hour ago, jaunco325 said:

and then you have the challenge of landing the plane on the runway.

Relatively easy, they land real slow once the payload and fuel is gone.

1 hour ago, jaunco325 said:

all that to save you a pittance of money.

I can do 100 tons to Jool intercept fully reusable in stock. How much would sending 100 tons to jool intercept cost you with rockets?  A pittance? well then everything in KSP must be a pittance.

1 hour ago, jaunco325 said:

Besides, in order to land the plane and "save money" you end up adding a lot of weight to the wings, fuselage, landing gear, etc. making takeoff more expensive.

Its still vastly cheaper than rockets, because as I said, they have a much higher payload fraction. Of course, I agree that the stuff you mention is mostly useless mass in space, which is why I leave them in Kerbin orbit, and don't pursue Single-stage to anywhere designs like some people do - Instead I pursue cargo capacity to orbit.

Going up to larger scales allows you to make recoverable 2 stage to orbit designs practical, in which case, one doesn't even take most of the wings and engines to orbit (just on a suboribtal trajectory).

The 2nd stage can have tiny wings and landing gear (as for the "fusalage" its just a normal fuel tank, same as that used on rockets), as it only needs to be able to fly and land when empty. The first stage has most of the wing area (and airbreathing engines) to support flight when full.

This thing is fully recoverable at 100%, even at 6.4x Kerbin, when orbital velocity is over 6,000 m/s

Spoiler

Note, the 1st stage's suborbital trajectory stays above the atmosphere long enough to swithc back:

It also works for making reusable Eve shuttles.

Couple it with ISRU, and you can have free trips back and forth down to the surface of Eve.

Do that without making a plane...

[jaunco325]

.

4 hours ago, ColdJ said:

Not sure if it works with the latest but you could try this.

and this

https://spacedock.info/mod/2722/JNSQ-KSRGAP

and this

https://spacedock.info/mod/2573/Kerbin Side Remastered GAP

thanks

Edited March 11, 2022 by jaunco325

[jimmymcgoochie]

Unlike real life, Kerbin is small enough that air-breathing engines can get you most of the way to orbital velocity. This makes single stage to orbit spaceplanes not only feasible, but very economical if built properly. For example, here's a design I've used extensively in career games which can put 20 tons of payload into LKO and return to the runway for full recovery value, minus fuel and the cost of the payload itself:

https://kerbalx.com/Kronus_Aerospace/Kronus-LowTech-20-Ton-SSTO

This one uses only parts that can be unlocked with a level 2 R&D department, avoiding the expensive upgrade to level 3. It also flies well with or without a payload attached and with a few upgrades (a.k.a. sticking a NERV in place of the central jet engine) the payload capacity can be as much as 30 tons to orbit per flight, costing less than 6000 funds in total per flight. With a few minor changes, it could conceivably be reused without even recovering it if you're into that sort of thing.

Spoiler

Upgraded version with a NERV and two Swivels, two Reliants on the front to boost payload capacity. Both these images are from a career game I did last year in a rearranged stock system.

You can also use planes to fly around Kerbin to get science, reaching areas that rovers typically can't even with the magic of Bon Voyage to drive them in the background. There are plenty of biomes on Kerbin to get data from and unlocking newer experiments gives you an excuse to fly around for a while getting more science points and admiring some of the views. You can also air-drop science probes or rovers from a plane to get those hard-to-reach biomes or to get a closer look at some interesting surface features- there are plenty of anomalies to discover on Kerbin's surface and four bonus launch sites to find too.

All of this also applies to Laythe, the only other body in the Kerbol system that has a breathable* atmosphere, making both SSTOs and science planes very lucrative there. The challenge with Laythe is finding land and landing safely, but if you do you can use an ISRU and make fuel to keep on flying for as long as you want.

Spoiler

*breathable by jet engines, at least...

Planes are also useful on Eve, though the lack of oxygen in the atmosphere makes it impossible to use jet engines; instead you should use electric propulsion like the Breaking Ground propellers. There are some mods that add engines that can operate in Eve's atmosphere- explodium-breathing engines uses the air as 'fuel' and requires onboard oxidiser, while air-breathing nuclear engines such as those in Near Future Aeronautics don't need any fuel at all but are heavy and bulky. Duna's atmosphere is too thin for most planes, though it's still possible to fly there; landing, on the other hand...

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by jimmymcgoochie

[jaunco325]

3 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

May I suggest that you are just building your airplanes wrong?

 

well maybe you're right

[Zozaf Kerman]

I can fix this argument. Rockets are awesome and the stuff of dreams. Planes are also cool, but way more common. Hence people making more rockets.

[DunaManiac]

In addition to what others have said, I believe that Kerbal Construction Time adds more benefits to using an SSTO and reusable rockets in general. KCT allows you to leave a vessel in "storage," meaning that it can be launched instantly at any time. When it takes time to build things, things are quickly bogged down when one has to fill your queue with resupply missions or crew transfers. So the obvious answer is to build a spaceplane which can do those side functions while the queue is filled with consequential missions. Its especially handy if you have life support mods and you need to resupply your bases regularly.

[fourfa]

If you start a new career on the default settings, you can certainly accomplish every traditional KSP task - landings, grand tours, and so on - without ever building a plane.

You might also play on harder difficulty - say at an extreme, Nano-Crystalline Diamond mode in the Caveman challenge, where you’ll likely scrape every single fractional science point on Kerbin’s surface with planes.  Or self-impose challenges like building ground relay stations, or improvised refueling airbases, or never ever use the Recover button unless back at the KSC runway. I’ve been enjoying building tall radio towers on mountaintops since the ground anchors dropped, with teams of engineers deploying on cargo helicopters.

There are many ways to play the game. Play long enough and there will be no stock parts you don’t use. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by fourfa