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2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

The itsokay propaganda of the KSP 2 fans-in-advance is understandable

Saying "no news doesn't mean that there's going to be the apocalypse tomorrow" isn't "itsokay propaganda" it's just more of a "calm down and stop panicking" message.

 

But I guess you guys are right, I'm pretty sure that this couple of weeks without them updating their bathroom schedule surely means that now there's a smoking crater where once there was their studio.

It absolutely that and not the fact that they have 9 months to release the game and in that space you could fit 2 of 3 typical marketing campaigns.

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"If they haven't revealed the entirety of the game in advance, how do we even know the game actually exists at all? A good marketing campaign should show off every single location, character, and minor feature years in advance (surprises? Who would want those?), as well as the full story and all cutscenes (if applicable). As you can see, Nintendo has done none of these things, and this is why Breath of the Wild 2 is clearly going to be a dumpster fire."

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In early 1990s I was playing Elite on ZX Spectrum with 48 kbyte RAM.
(Actually, 42k, as 6k is the videobuffer).

Getting much older, changing several places of job, I was waiting for its post-FFE remake, currently known as Elite Dangerous, for nearly 20 years.
Faith manages. (c) Lennier.

A funny thing. When E.D. had been finally released, I didn't even download it for free from torrents, because I was already playing paid KSP.

Edited by kerbiloid
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1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

A funny thing. When E.D. had been finally released, I didn't even download it for free from torrents, because I was already playing paid KSP.

and still playing it :D this sequel mess is drawing me back to the original, and without the prospect of principia and some favourite mods and tweaks it leaves me with mixed sentiments... plus it sounds like they're cancelling career mode which is the only mode i play... so on release it has mixed appeal and will most likely need some serious modding to be fun. the more i think about it, the less interested i get.

to be clear (since i've been paraphrased very inaccurately a few times now) i still think it will be released, and people being moved from KSP1 development to KSP2 indicates the project is still being worked on. most likely it'll just be delayed again, and at least a couple years before it becomes more appealing than modded KSP.

 

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On 3/18/2022 at 8:58 AM, Laxez said:

EMH, HELLO, what's the problem with people who say the game has been canceled?
As we say here in Italy "volete la pappa pronta" translated: "you want the baby food ready", to do things well you need TIME.

You're new to the forum, go see the "non-serious stuff" they shared.

Did they announce the closure of the studio? I do not think so.

The "don't release videos every half second" doesn't mean they're scratching their bellies waiting for someone to tell them to release the game.

Sorry for the outburst, but i'm tired of hearing people say that the game will never come out just because the devs haven't shown a video in a few weeks.

Volete la pappa pronta....I agree, as italian me too, these are the best words. I know that something like a game it required time, but @Laxez, let me tell you this. I completely understand the users which would see their next games be released very soon. However this "hype train" mentality which was appeared during last years for some elements, was caused expecially from the software houses. I can understand that there are some period of the years which are better for sell a new product, but in some cases, some announcements was made too early than the real day of release. Just take GTA series, how many of this series was announces soo early and they was released years later?

For KSP2 however, I think that covid and some management issues correlated with the software house was the real reason for this delay. I think that they really working, but they was very unlucky. covid has ruinded their initial plans, and also some the fact that has forced them to replan their workteam, has caused these delays. And honestly, during past months I saw several interaction from some of them, so, I think that if we will lucky, they will accomplish the 2022 as target for release day

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7 hours ago, sunnypunny said:

Yup. We lack significant coverage on any single mechanic or feature throughout all these promos, and core features like multiplayer remain a total information blackout. Even in 2019 where the game was supposedly 6 months away from release, at least one or two things should have been pretty well finished and ready to show. All we get are little scraps and previews and pre-alpha footage the whole way - where's the progress? It's understandable that people would start asking questions and thinking that the game is dead.

This team is clearly indifferent to the community that built KSP, and the focus on tutorials shows that they're more committed to finding a new market. But any space fan who is interested in this kind of game will already know about and most likely own KSP. In the Gamescon reveal they clearly thought the game was a bigger deal and that more people are enthused about it than really are, it's a niche product and their attempts to make it otherwise are always going to struggle.

I'm predicting at least one more scandal before release, and if there's another delay (most likely at this point as quoted above) then another scandal on top. Then there will be the scandal of the release itself, something like SimCity or Cyberpunk where we question why they ported a single player game to multiplayer, see all the bugs and wonder what they've been doing all these years. Literally just combine the most popular mods along with some graphical and performance updates and they'd already have a fine sequel, but who knows what we will end up getting based on what we've seen.

It's becoming increasingly difficult to care about this sequel any more - especially when KSP already taught me rocket science and object-oriented programming. That's more than a game should do and it's near impossible to top that. If KSP2 ever arrives I'm sure it will be playable after a year or two of patches and content updates, but it'll definitely continue to be a slow grind as it has been already. It's possible that modders then jump in and create a realistic RP mod (like GTAV NoPixel) and it has a resurgence on Twitch, but everything good I can imagine it being is still years away.

We should've been playing this during the lockdown in early access and full of bugs. Perfect time to get a devoted community involved and let the modders start tinkering. This company uses a top-down, secretive approach that's unsuited for this game, all they care about is the bottom line and that shows in everything they present.


Maybe you haven't been around here much? The folks from intercept have given us more information per month and had more follow-up conversations in dev threads than Squad ever did, and they were pretty great as far as studios go. We know quite a bit about a bunch of important mechanics, including advanced fuel types, new engines, burning while under time warp, new planets, VAB and flight interfaces, and hints about how colonies and stations will be supplied and constructed. Are you expecting a full walk-through gameplay demo most of a year before release? Because I've never seen that happen. There's just no reason whatsoever to even be pessimistic based on what we've already seen, let alone convinced of scandal and collapse. 

And as fun as it has been to speculate and imagine ways some of the finer details could or couldn't be handled on this forum, design by committee, especially one that isn't actively engaged in the design process, isn't the best way to get a cohesive, thorough set of mechanics. Let designers be designers, work out the kinks as best they can, and when it's ready its ready. We already know release probably isn't till the latter part of this year. Be patient. 

There's a big thread here with all the confirmed details players have collected over the last few years. Its quite a bit!

+

Edited by Pthigrivi
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20 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Actually the game has been finished and exists... is existing... just on another plane of the multiverse reality.

It is awaiting for being summoned, conjured, to enter this world.

Needs a conjuration school wizard of level... Level...

* looks in the Player's Handbook *

Is there a "summon game" spell?

I play Moria, a game released first in 1983 :blink:

I think I have the time to develop a KSP-like game before KSP2 gets released.

You know, one of these free games that are hand-made and don't use Unity or PhysX... The opposite of KSP.

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On 3/19/2022 at 7:42 PM, The Aziz said:

Normal range of development is about 5 years, not 8. Which is this year. You know why? Because after that time the development starts to cost too much.

Dunno where'd you get that new engine from, because it's still Unity.

6 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Getting much older, changing several places of job, I was waiting for its post-FFE remake, currently known as Elite Dangerous, for nearly 20 years.

Aziz, this is is the kind of development time line I reference.  

While I wholeheartedly believe that most games aim for, have a goal for, a 5 year or less development, and maybe some of them meet that, there are several more that have development drag in to the decade marker.   This is much more common now, because of crowd-funded studios instead of private producers and investors.   The game has to be announced at the 'we don't even have money for this yet' stage, in order to get the money, to hire a programmer, to make what was just shown in a trailer.  

But that's part of it.  The 'new engine,' yes, it's still Unity, but Unity has improved leaps and bounds in the last 6-7 years, and if you started making a game in Unity around that time, finalizing it now, you'd have so many different things you could do, could improve on, and some of the things you've done may not even be guaranteed to work in newer versions of Unity, in the same way.   Heck, in 2015, Adobe CS changed a lot of their UI design from previous CS releases.  As a professional designer, it took me a long time to re-work my workspace and remap my desktop layout to accommodate the changes.  That was just for the UI, not to mention macros that were things I put in, that were now covered by tools that came included, or things that I had to do outside the program, that I now were in the program, etc.   If Unity, which I haven't used in a long time, is any where near that kind of evolution, which I bet it is similar, working in a timeline of 5-6 years, even, would be hitting roadbumps just based on the software and systems used to make the game, not even considering the consumer expectations that you'd have to continually meet, as those expectations evolve with technology. 

Just 10 years ago, for example, a flat plane object with a tiled texture that had a corresponding object oriented toward the viewer, that was shaped like a puff, was the height of in-game cloud technology.    Look at IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad now.   If you started out making IL-2 1946, and it went into 5-6 years development, you wouldn't have a game that would sell, unless you revamped a lot of things that were probably very core parts of the game, and that's just graphics.  Not to mention computational systems and physics advances.  

So what would become 5 years, hits about 5 years, and suddenly, you've got another year, maybe 2, or 3, of development to overhaul and modernize the game that has taken so long to build, it's obsolete.    That's the development cycle I am accustomed to seeing, based on the games I get interested in.    I'd be stoked if the games I wanted to play, took less than 4-5 years to develop and release, but I still don't have a good analog for X-wing Vs. Tie-Fighter, because as flashy as Squadrons was, it was released in less than 5 years because there was nearly 0 content to it, and it's already dead because they dropped support as soon as they released it.    

Given that KSP2 would likely be well supported if the predecessor is any indication, a development cycle of less than 5 years does not fit within the profile of a well-supported game, but in the profile of a "Squadrons" where the content is minimal and the game is not well supported.

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  ah i realise what happened, the game is already finished in the dev studio "subspace" - that's why they spend all their time playing it and it appears delayed / stuck in a previous time / dead for us.

5 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

 Be patient. 

waiting around will never get us there, we need time warp.

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On 3/21/2022 at 8:35 AM, sunnypunny said:

and still playing it :D this sequel mess is drawing me back to the original, and without the prospect of principia and some favourite mods and tweaks it leaves me with mixed sentiments... plus it sounds like they're cancelling career mode which is the only mode i play... so on release it has mixed appeal and will most likely need some serious modding to be fun. the more i think about it, the less interested i get.

to be clear (since i've been paraphrased very inaccurately a few times now) i still think it will be released, and people being moved from KSP1 development to KSP2 indicates the project is still being worked on. most likely it'll just be delayed again, and at least a couple years before it becomes more appealing than modded KSP.

 

There's some truth to this. I am excited for multiplayer and a more reasonable loading time. But the lack of career mode and Realism Overhaul+IVA mods, really makes me wonder sometimes if I am just gonna end up waiting for mods. I don't know if I can go back to "lego" rocket design instead of procedural one, and orbiting in stock feels way easier than it should now.

Other than that, I think it's absurd to panick about this game. This game is not dead, and it will be released eventually. When? who knows.

Edited by Sesshaku
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On 3/20/2022 at 12:09 PM, Master39 said:

A normal PR campaing is to plan a 6 months long one between the reveal and the release, then excrements happens and the game is delayed, now, your budget for your small game (KSP2 is bigger than KSP1 but it's still a game on the small side) accounted for a 6 months campaign and you have 2 and a half years to cover with that, what do you do? Let the dust settle on the controversy (there are videos about "Take Two MURDERED INDIE STUDIO" that have more views than the entire Dev Diaries forum section), and then plan a re-launch campaing near the release date with new trailers, interviews and stuff. We're in March, the game is supposed to come out before the end of the year, plenty of time to have a new trailer and a new campaign started 2 to 6 months before the release.

As I said in my other comment there's still enough time for a full Bethesda-like launch with a trailer at the E3 and the game releasing 5-6 months later.

I understand that it's not normal to have such a delay and change in studio so close to release, that WAS worrying, keyword here being "WAS", it's 2 years old news at this point, and the delay to this year? That was announced in November 2020, nothing changed since then and the only bit of additional info we have on the release is the confirmation that they target FY2023 and that means this year.

No news just means the marketing campaing isn't started yet, not that something new happened.

Posting short videos on the forum is an expensive PR campaign? Is answering fan questions on a forum an expensive PR campaign? How much money should go for a post on the forum? Maybe 1000 dollars? And now that money is running out? It seemed to me that an expensive PR campaign was advertising on TV or on banners on the streets of big cities, paid advertising from top bloggers or journalists or something like that. But reducing activity on your own forum is not the best strategy.

And it's also a bad strategy to constantly tell the developers that we're happy to accept a game of any quality at any time. Studios are run by publishers who look primarily at revenue rather than product quality. By sending such messages, we risk getting a game of lower quality than we could. When Halo's first trailer showed terrible graphics, Microsoft delayed the game for a year for revision. Yes, the game's multiplayer almost died in a few months, but the quality of the game has grown significantly due to the fans who rightly swear at the quality of the game. 

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16 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

And it's also a bad strategy to constantly tell the developers that we're happy to accept a game of any quality at any time.

"No news doesn't mean incoming apocalypse" is a far cry from "I'm happy  with whatever whenever", it just means, guess what, "no news doesn't mean incoming apocalypse".

 

22 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

By sending such messages, we risk getting a game of lower quality than we could. When Halo's first trailer showed terrible graphics, Microsoft delayed the game for a year for revision. Yes, the game's multiplayer almost died in a few months, but the quality of the game has grown significantly due to the fans who rightly swear at the quality of the game. 

You have to have something tangible to complain about for that to work, it doesn't work by extrapolating catastrophes out of literally nothing.

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@Alexoff I hear your point the importance of feedback, but I also think that feedback and communication are best when both gamers and developers treat each other honestly and in good faith. That goes for both praise and criticism. This seems unfortunately to be a problem with discourse generally these days. But as skeptical as we all are of 'big studios' so far I think to their credit we've seen a pretty fair and open attitude toward fans from the folks at Intercept. Obviously they're still working on things, obviously they're keeping some stuff close to the vest until its really ready for prime-time, but from the nitty-gritty explanations in dev-blogs to the shiny objects in the show and tells it sure looks to me like they've invested pretty heavily in solving some of the hard-problems that KSP1 couldn't, not just slapping a cheap skin on the old game for a cash grab. You never know for sure but it sure looks to me like they care enough to get this stuff right and make a great game, which is all that matters. Since they seem to be approaching this earnestly I think its perfectly fair for us to treat them the same way and offer some trust that the really tricky stuff like game balance and exploration will be given every bit the same thoughtfulness that tessellation and terrain detail have been. 

Edited by Pthigrivi
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2 hours ago, Master39 said:

"No news doesn't mean incoming apocalypse" is a far cry from "I'm happy  with whatever whenever", it just means, guess what, "no news doesn't mean incoming apocalypse".

The decrease in the amount of news and attention of developers to their fans does not mean that the game suddenly began to become wonderful.

2 hours ago, Master39 said:

You have to have something tangible to complain about for that to work, it doesn't work by extrapolating catastrophes out of literally nothing.

And we have materials. In other topics, you simply wrote that I am a troll, because if someone does not like something, then he is a troll and should be ignored. I am such a cunning troll that I started posting videos about KSP 7 years ago!

14 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I also think that feedback and communication are best when both gamers and developers treat each other honestly and in good faith.

This is very bad that we have to think for the developers ourselves. We must think for ourselves that the lack of real gameplay and new features such as huge ships, independent bases and multiplayer does not mean at all that they are not doing this. We were told about the destruction of the old developer's studio by journalists, not by the studio itself. I don't think it came from a good job. Who knows what actually happened there and is happening now? It is very difficult to keep a positive attitude when the game was announced to us so cheerfully and actively, but over the past six months we have been shown only procedural radiators, texture for a nuclear engine, an analogue of a scatterer, a picture with the distribution of resources and a discussion of the planets.

 

Edited by Alexoff
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20 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

The decrease in the amount of news and attention of developers to their fans does not mean that the game suddenly began to become wonderful.

And we have materials. In other topics, you simply wrote that I am a troll, because if someone does not like something, then he is a troll and should be ignored. I am such a cunning troll that I started posting videos about KSP 7 years ago!

This is very bad that we have to think for the developers ourselves. We must think for ourselves that the lack of real gameplay and new features such as huge ships, independent bases and multiplayer does not mean at all that they are not doing this. We were told about the destruction of the old developer's studio by journalists, not by the studio itself. I don't think it came from a good job. Who knows what actually happened there and is happening now? It is very difficult to keep a positive attitude when the game was announced to us so cheerfully and actively, but over the past six months we have been shown only procedural radiators, texture for a nuclear engine, an analogue of a scatterer, a picture with the distribution of resources and a discussion of the planets.

 

This is exactly why most developers don’t share anything at all with the community. 

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21 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

This is very bad that we have to think for the developers ourselves. 

I think its always important to put yourself in the shoes of anyone you're talking with, so that you can understand where they're coming from and engage with them thoughtfully. This is just common human trust thats necessary for any two people or groups to interact in a constructive way. 

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I think what makes this game feel dead to me is the disconnect between the promotional material and the community engagement itself.

Look at the creative director's forum posts - strict 1 month intervals. All the promo footage is years old at this point. Everything is run according to some 5 year old master plan without deviation, and it just feels lifeless. There's a total lack of meaningful interaction between the studio and the fans. Literally nothing anyone on the outside has said in the last few years has gotten through to them, or if it has we'll sure never know about it. The biggest question I have is - why the veil of secrecy? Why shut out the original dev so that he only even learnt about a sequel along with the rest of us? There's been enough shady business going on for 5 years that it would take an essay to cover, and when they create this massive brick wall between the studio and the fans, people are right to be suspicious.

Some people here act like the fans are unreasonable to want the smallest amount of involvement in the development process - for a sequel to a game that was mostly built by modders, a dream project for people who are obsessed with spaceflight. The promo videos tell us this studio shares the same passion, and maybe they do, but how would we know? It feels like they're stuck in some glass bubble like Deckard's daughter from the latest Blade Runner, and someone cut the phone line.

Whoever designed their PR strategy probably came from AAA studios where they treat communities like a mass of idiots, it seems like they're in the wrong niche. I only play indie games now because I like that they're never run like this, and it's annoying that the sequel to my favourite game ever has been taken over by some corporate goon squad who can't tell the difference between a horde of angsty pre-teen gamers and a bunch of adults with engineering / comp sci degrees.

If they want my "good faith" then they need to show some to the fans, they got a ton of leeway due to my investment in the prequel but they've burnt through it all.

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I find this refreshing, because it is about the PR strategy rather than the game itself. I definitely agree that the devs could provide a little more communication  with the community regarding KSP 2. I also understand that a non-negligible amount of hours and effort has to be put into this both by dedicated PR people and by others who could be spending time developing. Personally I am okay with the current level of information although I would be a little bit miffed if it was for nothing and there won’t be a reveal at the end of the tunnel. But I definitely see the argument that Private Division could take steps to improve communication about the state of their game (without spoiling anything!)

And for the upteenth time to anyone who thinks that the low amount of news means a low amount of quality or scope, that is a perfectly valid belief, but it is just that. You can make arguments for days or even months as evidenced by this thread about whether news means bad things or not, but what a lot of people are trying to say is that you simply don’t know. It might be infuriating that we don’t have the information to know, but that doesn’t mean that the worst outcome has happened, it just means that you don’t know and that is unfortunately the case. 

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Actually I think it's fair to say that multiplayer is dead, given the total lack of info around this core feature so close to the planned release, and the availability of multiple mods which provide working solutions to the major issues it raises. It's not rocket science, and why else would they say literally nothing about it for 3 years and provide zero glimpses into anything related to it. Their approach is to only skim the surface of any feature with these previews, so we should have at least heard something about networking or the broad strokes by now.

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2 minutes ago, sunnypunny said:

Actually I think it's fair to say that multiplayer is dead, given the total lack of info around this core feature so close to the planned release, and the availability of multiple mods which provide working solutions to the major issues it raises. It's not rocket science, and why else would they say literally nothing about it for 3 years and provide zero glimpses into anything related to it. Their approach is to only skim the surface of any feature with these previews, so we should have at least heard something about networking or the broad strokes by now.

They have said in the past they are keeping their mouths zipped on it until a "major announcement." We'll see when that happens... 

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4 hours ago, t_v said:

because it is about the PR strategy rather than the game itself.

An guess what? As soon as we have another trailer and the announcement campaign start back, this year or in 2034, all these "are we there yet" topics are going to be forgotten and never brought up again.

As much as I'd love to know everything about this game the amount of informations they drop is not linked to the state of the game or the development direction.

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10 hours ago, Alexoff said:

we have been shown only procedural radiators, texture for a nuclear engine, an analogue of a scatterer, a picture with the distribution of resources and a discussion of the planets

For the sake of truth, they have also shown the Kerbal facial expressions and Kerbal spectacles.

***

It looks like it's not a game about flying cylinders in space and 11 year old Kerbal animated models, but a video quality saga with realistic bullet hits.

6 hours ago, sunnypunny said:

If they want my "good faith" then they need to show some to the fans, they got a ton of leeway due to my investment in the prequel but they've burnt through it all.

"Miracle! Give us a miracle!"

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Instead of saying the game is dead, I appreciate the transparency the Devs are having, honestly I wasn't expecting features like dynamic radiators and that's something that took me by surprise positively.

Nate Simpson said in an interview that we don't even have a clue how big KSP 2 is compared to KSP 1. honestly I don't like to see feature videos because I'm a bit spoiler, but on the other hand I'm super happy to see that this game is made by fans and not just any developers, for this reason I think that even if one day (which will never arrive) the game will die, KSP 2 would come back to life in other forms.

Some video game houses post absolutely nothing except a cinematic trailer at the beginning and some gameplay just before releasing the game, this is not called transparency.

As a fan since 2015, I really have perennial anxiety about the release of this game, and it really doesn't make any sense to be told that the game is dead, it hurts too, so, kindly stop saying nonsense until at least something will be said officially.

Edited by Laxez
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7 hours ago, Master39 said:

An guess what? As soon as we have another trailer and the announcement campaign start back, this year or in 2034, all these "are we there yet" topics are going to be forgotten and never brought up again.

As much as I'd love to know everything about this game the amount of informations they drop is not linked to the state of the game or the development direction.

As if you can possibly know what other people remember and forget? Maybe you will forget them - probably because you've shown zero ability to understand the position of critics and skeptics given all the exaggeration, inaccurate paraphrasing and sentimentalist projection. Who are all these upset people you seem to think exist, or those claiming the game is dead? Even the OP merely suggested it.

I'll always remember the disaster that was SimCity release after preordering it, and never preorder again. EA got voted worst company in America that year, even worse than a bank who was doing some nasty stuff with people's homes. This narrative that "gamers are fickle" only serves corporate interests, just like the people that promote it. I remember being in the KSP subreddit's discord on announce day 2+ years ago, hearing from a dev and people there who felt cheated because the original dev of KSP1 had only just found out along with us. I remember saying that the first thing I'll do on release is downvote this game on steam for the way this phase has been managed (and I still intend to). And I'll always remember certain scandals that have happened since, which I'm prevented from talking about because the moderators consider it "politics."

Given how little we know about this game, another SimCity level fiasco is definitely possible. Some people think that they've shown us a lot, and for other games it would be true, but the scope of KSP2 is a lot more complex than the average game given the features they intend to add. We've seen nothing of substance, which means that speculation about the game's death is entirely justified.

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