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Show and Tell - Procedural Radiators


StarSlay3r
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9 minutes ago, Random-E said:
43 minutes ago, Nate Simpson said:

Seeing this question pop up in a few places. We don't currently have specific plans to add procedural solar panels for release, as solar gameplay wasn't blocked by the absence of a large-scale solution in the way that radiator gameplay was. As you get deeper into the progression, you've got a number of other power generation solutions that don't rely on sunlight (since many of the problems you're solving involve either being very far from a star or being in a situation in which solar intermittency is an obstacle). I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels. 

That's our new VAB music, courtesy of Howard Mostrom. It makes you 28 percent more creative.

perhaps to power spacecraft in far flung orbits around kerbol and other stars (specifically for your radiation exposure limit regulartors)?

I think the issue with this, and what Nate was trying to get at, is that spacecraft in far-flung solar orbits wouldn't be able to efficiently generate power with large, procedural solar panels, even if they were available. For example, in the real solar system solar cells can only collect about 40% as much power at Mars as they can at Earth, and Mars is only about 50% farther from the Sun than Earth is. By the time you get to Jupiter, which is about 5 times further from the Sun, solar cells can only collect about 4% as much energy as at Earth.

So there probably isn't the same design need to create procedural solar panels as there is to create procedural radiators, since you'll need bigger and bigger radiators as the game progresses, but you're likely not as likely to use solar power beyond Duna, and certainly not on interstellar journeys. Some kind of nuclear power is much more likely.

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42 minutes ago, Nate Simpson said:

We don't currently have specific plans to add procedural solar panels for release, as solar gameplay wasn't blocked by the absence of a large-scale solution in the way that radiator gameplay was. As you get deeper into the progression, you've got a number of other power generation solutions that don't rely on sunlight (since many of the problems you're solving involve either being very far from a star or being in a situation in which solar intermittency is an obstacle).

That makes sense to me and I agree with that approach personally. While it is certainly possible to load up on a ridiculously huge amount of solar panels to accomplish an energy goal, I think it is reasonable to force the player into investigating other energy options (RTGs, nuclear reactors, fuel cells, and so on). The phrase "If all you have is hammer, all problems look like a nail" comes to mind here, and I think it makes sense to take that hammer away at times.

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59 minutes ago, Nate Simpson said:

Seeing this question pop up in a few places. We don't currently have specific plans to add procedural solar panels for release, as solar gameplay wasn't blocked by the absence of a large-scale solution in the way that radiator gameplay was. As you get deeper into the progression, you've got a number of other power generation solutions that don't rely on sunlight (since many of the problems you're solving involve either being very far from a star or being in a situation in which solar intermittency is an obstacle). I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels. 

That's our new VAB music, courtesy of Howard Mostrom. It makes you 28 percent more creative.

Although I understand the point, I do hope there's at least some scalability. As a rule, it's always better provide the user with design flexibility.
This might be the unpopular opinion, but after playing Realism Overhaul I just think the rocket design tools used there are just plain better than being stuck with fixed lego-parts. So I definetely support procedural and tweaking scale of everything.

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This is quite intriguing!

Im also curious about the game mechanic that these neat radiators will be attached to. Will it be more like Nertea’s excellent SystemHeat, or more like the stock system we have now? I would personally prefer the former. 

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37 minutes ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

I would personally prefer the former. 

I know, it's great. There's probably some limits on how complex stock can be, but I personally find its much easier to understand inputs and outputs with that mod. 

As far as procedural solar panels go it probably has to do with how big Xenon engines will be, and how the cost and weight/electrical output ratios of large panels compare to nuclear reactors. I find solar-driven Ion vessels between Kerbin, Eve and Moho really fun but I tend to need much larger modded panels to make that work. So long as we have a range of big panels we probably don't need them to be procedural. 

Edited by Pthigrivi
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36 minutes ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

This is quite intriguing!

Im also curious about the game mechanic that these neat radiators will be attached to. Will it be more like Nertea’s excellent SystemHeat, or more like the stock system we have now? I would personally prefer the former. 

Considering Nertea would have loved to rip the stock system out and dump it into a black hole, and that he's on the KSP 2 team, I'm thinking it's the former :D 

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1 hour ago, Nate Simpson said:

I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels. 

I'm envisioning making huge solar farms for my surface bases before I get reactors (I know that progression is not really realistic but shhhh, I love me some solar farms stretching for kilometers :P)

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11 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels. 

Well, 

something at least sized like ISS solar panels (kerbal scaled of course), even at kerbal scale it would be nearly 3 gigantors long & two side by side wide - for 1 kerbal scaled iss solar panel.


Going from there, a way to disable the panels automatic suntracking, especially if we could combine that with a servo that can do sun tracking (this way we could create iss style rotating assemblies).

(that kind of sun tracking servo could also help for radiators)

else, a way to 'wrap' folded solar panels around cylindrical bodies would be nice too, so they could more easily fit within fairings (look at folded soyuz / zarya / zvevda solar panels)

As for procedural solar panels, i guess rosa style solar panels could be  the right tool :)

 

Edited by sgt_flyer
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2 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

as solar gameplay wasn't blocked by the absence of a large-scale solution in the way that radiator gameplay was

Sounds like you guys are being very tactical about developing features that serve a purpose and are keeping scope creep in check.  Great job!

Also... the music is amazing.

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2 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels. 

Giant interplanetary cargo ships with ion engines (unless drastically changed from original game, which they probably will be seeing as their thrust was unrealistically high and now with a solution to that problem the workaround is unnecessary, but still). Also, most of the active part of interstellar travel can be done in solar systems. Just make sure you start on the far side of the system, pass through the centre and use all the solar power you can squeeze from that, and you'll probably only need a very small source of power for the dark stretch of the journey.
Also, cool aesthetics. That is a giant part of what KSP is about to me, so I am biased.

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3 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels.

I just want to build custom shaped solar sails so I can make ships that look like they're out of Treasure Planet. Pretty please? :)

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3 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels.

I just want to build custom shaped solar sails so I can make ships that look like they're out of Treasure Planet. Pretty please? :)

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26 minutes ago, KarolOfGutovo said:

Giant interplanetary cargo ships with ion engines (unless drastically changed from original game, which they probably will be seeing as their thrust was unrealistically high and now with a solution to that problem the workaround is unnecessary, but still). Also, most of the active part of interstellar travel can be done in solar systems. Just make sure you start on the far side of the system, pass through the centre and use all the solar power you can squeeze from that, and you'll probably only need a very small source of power for the dark stretch of the journey.
Also, cool aesthetics. That is a giant part of what KSP is about to me, so I am biased.

The existing solar panels in KSP 1 would already suffice for that type of design, and I would think they will be adding a varying amount of new solar panels in KSP 2 as well.

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2 hours ago, CoreI said:

Those look super nice! I wonder if the addition of procedural radiators means we might get some procedural heat shielding for spaceplanes...

that would make sense

maybe we will have the option to toggle a heat shield on the exterior surface of plane parts or exterior non plane parts included on a plane at the cost of a little weight 

also more footage of hud new parts and vab

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The torture for this video was sublime. I would love to see more gameplay :)

Great to see the VAB and the new VAB music.

Those look like modified R-12 Baguette tanks. To be able to connect them in that way is cool.

I saw what look like R-4 Dumpling tanks in the parts menu with the same ability.

Excellent video!

Edited by Anth12
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4 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels. 

Not necessarily big. Rigid LEGO-like panels make it difficult to build tiny weight-efficient probes. Besides, I believe the parts menu would feel all the more unified if all panels followed similar rules.

Edited by Bej Kerman
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6 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

Seeing this question pop up in a few places. We don't currently have specific plans to add procedural solar panels for release, as solar gameplay wasn't blocked by the absence of a large-scale solution in the way that radiator gameplay was. As you get deeper into the progression, you've got a number of other power generation solutions that don't rely on sunlight (since many of the problems you're solving involve either being very far from a star or being in a situation in which solar intermittency is an obstacle). I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels. 

The use of solar panels like the structural panels in Making History would be much appreciated. Various different sizes and shapes that we could attach to robotic parts so we can make our own folding solar panels.

Either that, or we could be given the opportunity to make n-gon solar panels with adjustable points along a plane. For instance, a pentagonal solar panel with points adjusted to look like a house.
There was also this idea to produce solar power through a very compact, inline module: Solar Power, Origami-Style | NASA.

We're not exactly asking for solar panels that are huge like radiators need to be, but it allows for greater creativity in what the player can build.
Were it not for the latest KSP1 update, we wouldn't even get the round solar panels that the Lucy probe had. Without procedural solar panels, the desire for customised solar panels would always be dependent on the solar panels that we're given in the game. If the necessary solar panels don't exist, you can't build it. This was originally a problem when it came to lifting surfaces. We were given a specific set, and had to work with them as best as we could.

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14 minutes ago, intelliCom said:

Got a screencap of the VAB UI and labelled it.
I'm not sure if things have changed since we last saw the UI, so it was easier to just relabel the UI we saw in this video.

Let me know what's new compared to before.

https://imgur.com/a/WgBcM8g

??? Is very likely engineers report, which, given the conversation about heat management I have high hopes for in terms of simplicity/clarity. Given the lack of heat overlay akin to mass, aero, radiation, etc, I suspect unlike (the brilliant) System Heat mod there won't be separate loop ID/temps, and the main goal will be to match heat radiation to heat production, which would be similar to not having enough power generation for the draw, and other relatively simple +/- calcs to verify. 

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Just now, Pthigrivi said:

??? Is very likely engineers report, which, given the conversation about heat management I have high hopes for in terms of simplicity/clarity. Given the lack of heat overlay akin to mass, aero, radiation, etc, I suspect unlike (the brilliant) System Heat mod there won't be separate loop ID/temps, and the main goal will be to match heat radiation to heat production, which would be similar to not having enough power generation for the draw, and other relatively simple +/- calcs to verify. 

Could be. Then again, could be a case of confirmation bias, given that we're thinking a lot about procedural radiators right now. The absolute truth is that we aren't too sure.

Whenever I've been unsure, I always put down a (?) right after. Anything without question marks is certain to me.

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13 minutes ago, intelliCom said:

Whenever I've been unsure, I always put down a (?) right after. Anything without question marks is certain to me.

Perfectly sensible. About the uncertain move gizmos I know they've said they've reworked the parent/subassembly system, so it may be 1) select/pull/place individual part, 2) translate/offset part (but where is rotate? included?) 3) select/pull/place subassembly 4) select/move vessel?

I know there's also supposed to be a mission planner, which seems very difficult to program given the multitude of different mission/vessel profiles, but Im definitely interested to see how they've tackled that. 

Edited by Pthigrivi
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