Kerbal Space Program 2: Episode 5 - Interstellar Travel

[DrCHIVES]

On 4/21/2022 at 3:21 AM, GigFiz said:

So that confirms exactly what you said, with the additional fact that Rask/Rusk will have a Lagrange point, and with the implication of how they worded that, we can pretty safely conclude that it will be the only LaGrange point in the game.

This is, of course, assuming that they spent the time, money, and effort building such a unique localized n-body system to only use it in one location in the entire game...  I have a feeling we may see it in other places.  We've seen what appeared to be a binary star system in a previous feature video.  Can't remember which one, but it was when the game's music composer was talking about the opportunity of making the soundtrack for the game.  Just my hunch.  But I'm confident that we will see this n-body system in other locations.

Edited April 24, 2022 by DrCHIVES

[TheOrbitalMechanic]

12 minutes ago, DrCHIVES said:

it was when the game's music composer was talking about the opportunity of making the soundtrack for the game.

Wait, what? Did I miss an interview or something? All I've heard about the soundtrack and composer is posts from Nate saying he's cool.

[shdwlrd]

10 minutes ago, TheOrbitalMechanic said:

Wait, what? Did I miss an interview or something? All I've heard about the soundtrack and composer is posts from Nate saying he's cool.

One of the dev diaries featured the composer. Don't remember his name though.

[Vl3d]

Howard Mostrom

 

[DrCHIVES]

9 hours ago, TheOrbitalMechanic said:

Wait, what? Did I miss an interview or something? All I've heard about the soundtrack and composer is posts from Nate saying he's cool.

So I went back and found it.  Very first feature video that launched alongside the trailer.  At about 1:35.  It looks like a white dwarf with like maybe a g class yellow dwarf?

Picture of binary star in feature video

[Minmus Taster]

12 minutes ago, DrCHIVES said:

So I went back and found it.  Very first feature video that launched alongside the trailer.  At about 1:35.  It looks like a white dwarf with like maybe a g class yellow dwarf?

Picture of binary star in feature video

Oh my :O

The bigger star could be Debdeb due to it's red color but I didn't see anything that looked like that in this shot of that system:

Also my theory is going off the second shot you showed where the big star is red.

[SilentWindOfDoom]

I watch these updates with some concern

As someone who has played KSP with the modded techtree and the Interstellar mod there is simply no way in my mind that the developers of KSP2 will require anywhere near the amount of grind or effort to gain the use of these advanced technologies that the somewhat masochistic developers of these mods had in place. While that is perfectly fine in a vacuum, unmodded KSP should be the baseline experience on which to base development of its sequel after all, how are these technologies not going to be immensely overpowered when used in a more domestic in-system setting, both the Kerbol system and the ones you reach afterwards?

Are we going to be required to venture off-world to fuel our proverbial Epstein drive or will be just be able to slap fusion pellets into a container in the VAB and blast them off into space? How do you provide a roadmap to the stars without trivializing the road to Jool? Where is the challenge to be found when you reach the other stars and you already have the peak level of technology unlocked? I am very concerned about where this seems to be going. Maybe my questions have been answered already, in which case I'll eat crow, but I'd rather hear about performance than how big the game will be. 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by SilentWindOfDoom

[t_v]

49 minutes ago, SilentWindOfDoom said:

I watch these updates with some concern

As someone who has played KSP with the modded techtree and the Interstellar mod there is simply no way in my mind that the developers of KSP2 will require anywhere near the amount of grind or effort to gain the use of these advanced technologies that the somewhat masochistic developers of these mods had in place. While that is perfectly fine in a vacuum, unmodded KSP should be the baseline experience on which to base development of its sequel after all, how are these technologies not going to be immensely overpowered when used in a more domestic in-system setting, both the Kerbol system and the ones you reach afterwards?

Are we going to be required to venture off-world to fuel our proverbial Epstein drive or will be just be able to slap fusion pellets into a container in the VAB and blast them off into space? How do you provide a roadmap to the stars without trivializing the road to Jool? Where is the challenge to be found when you reach the other stars and you already have the peak level of technology unlocked? I am very concerned about where this seems to be going. Maybe my questions have been answered already, in which case I'll eat crow, but I'd rather hear about performance than how big the game will be. 

 

From what I’ve seen, the exact nature of the progression system is unknown, except that it seems to fill most niches and it expands from very weak to very powerful. This could become a grind, but there are ways to avoid this. I remember playing Hexxit back when it was popular, and I found that despite the progression system going for a long time, each mote of progression was a unique task which was not grindy. I think the road to Jool won’t be trivialized because it represents an important milestone in the roadmap to the stars. And then, the technologies are different. Sure, I could use a Daedalus drive to go to Duna marginally faster, but the hassle of dealing with low twr and piping exotic fuels in is not worth it. Methalox engine will still be prevalent at the frontier of my space program where industry is not up yet. 

[Ahres]

2 hours ago, SilentWindOfDoom said:

I watch these updates with some concern

While your concerns are definitely valid, I wouldn't let them bother you too much yet. Nate has called it more of an "Adventure" mode than the Career mode we know from KSP1. I don't think it'd be called Adventure Mode if you are using torchships for your first Mun landing.

[SilentWindOfDoom]

I'm not too bothered, just concerned. I trust mods will evolve to give me the masochistic experience of manual supply runs and antimatter farming before I can set off for the outer planets, nevermind other stars. Its just that I see a lot of people in the thread theocrafting about all these intricate mechanics and features that are assumed will be in the game as if we're getting KSP:Interstellar and not KSP with interstellar parts. There are a lot of unknowns, a lot of hype and eye candy but structurally, do we know how the game will actually play?

[The Aziz]

2 hours ago, SilentWindOfDoom said:

unmodded KSP should be the baseline experience on which to base development of its sequel

Point/currency based science system (where tech tree can be finished without leaving Kerbin system?), Made-up career mode (AKA money slapped on top of science mode) with ridiculously random and easily exploitable contract system, Kerbals up for sale, somehow getting more expensive after hiring more and more (tells a lot about economics of this species)...

No, it's the exact opposite that is needed.

3 hours ago, SilentWindOfDoom said:

how are these technologies not going to be immensely overpowered when used in a more domestic in-system setting, both the Kerbol system and the ones you reach afterwards?

Are we going to be required to venture off-world to fuel our proverbial Epstein drive (...)

 How do you provide a roadmap to the stars without trivializing the road to Jool? Where is the challenge to be found when you reach the other stars and you already have the peak level of technology unlocked

I may have access to Vector engines, xenon propulsion, or NERV, but I'm still using good ol' Swivels, Skippers and Terriers. Sometimes moar power isn't a solution. Like Nate said, torch drive may not be the most efficient form of propulsion, but it's fast. But also, probably quite expensive (time and resource-wise) to make. It's easier to use standard methalox engines for hauling small things in a local neighborhood.

Then, probably, yes, some resources won't be available everywhere. You're not getting whatever resources are needed for interstellar engines on Kerbin or nearby. it could go on, if, torch engine works on some exotic material unavailable in Kerbol system, the only way to get it and discover the technology, is to go to other stars. This is not ksp1 and should not be judged through the ksp1 lens, which some people forget about. If they do it right, you'll have plenty of reasons to visit distant places and use "old" technology while having access to new. I mean, even if you reach Debdeb, you'll be starting from scratch.

[shdwlrd]

5 minutes ago, SilentWindOfDoom said:

I'm not too bothered, just concerned. I trust mods will evolve to give me the masochistic experience of manual supply runs and antimatter farming before I can set off for the outer planets, nevermind other stars. Its just that I see a lot of people in the thread theocrafting about all these intricate mechanics and features that are assumed will be in the game as if we're getting KSP:Interstellar and not KSP with interstellar parts. There are a lot of unknowns, a lot of hype and eye candy but structurally, do we know how the game will actually play?

We do know enough to speculate about the mechanics of the game. You could be as masochist as you want, but there will be mechanisms in place to make it easier to play through the game without making the game easier, if that makes sense. 

[Vl3d]

Math and physics are not grindy because every problem needs a different, new, creative approach. Be like math and physics.

PS: And computer science and chemistry. Biology is grindy. :))

Edited April 25, 2022 by Vl3d

[Guest]

3 hours ago, SilentWindOfDoom said:

I'm not too bothered, just concerned. I trust mods will evolve to give me the masochistic experience of manual supply runs and antimatter farming before I can set off for the outer planets, nevermind other stars. Its just that I see a lot of people in the thread theocrafting about all these intricate mechanics and features that are assumed will be in the game as if we're getting KSP:Interstellar and not KSP with interstellar parts. There are a lot of unknowns, a lot of hype and eye candy but structurally, do we know how the game will actually play?

When the trailer dropped and the speculation started we had a very vocal portion of the community pointing out that the whole colony system and fuel production could rapidly turn KSP into a "Milk run simulator".

Then, at some point, Nate Simpson confirmed that a "Supply route system" is part of the game, allowing the player to "record" supply runs to repeat them automatically in the background. We don't have much details on how it's supposed to work, but even the most basic one just allowing you to transfer resources automatically would remove all the tedium and repeated resource grind and turn even the most complex resource and life support system into a one time set-up.

That pretty much opens the door to have the "resource to rocket" chain as complex as they want without the player having to move every single load of iron and copper manually between Minmus Mines and Mun Orbital Shypyards.

It doesn't even matter too much how complex the initial set-up is, it's going to be way less boring and pointless than mining useless magic ore from Eve and bringing it to Moho or launching the nth 16-seat-strapped-to-a-tank station in Duna orbit. And sure enough it's not going to require you to scavenge 5 years old google spreadsheets to understand the ratios between resources like some KSP1 mods.

Also consider that every KSP1 mod is mostly "Kerbin-centric" even with colonies and extraplanetary launchpads, from every bit of information we have it seems that in KSP2 Kerbin is going to be the starting point of a journey, not the source of everything and every mission.

We don't know everything but we already know a lot, I suggest you read this topic: KSP2 Knowledge repository

Edited April 25, 2022 by Master39

[Pthigrivi]

1 hour ago, Master39 said:

allowing the player to "record" supply runs

Did he confirm that? I thought that was just a widespread speculation? 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Did he confirm that? I thought that was just a widespread speculation? 

Look back in Nate's forum account, I don't remember if it was under one of the Dev diaries or under a show and tell but someone was speculating about the idea and he quoted the speculation saying "that's pretty much how is going to work" or something similar.

Right now I can't search for it.

[TheOrbitalMechanic]

2 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Did he confirm that? I thought that was just a widespread speculation? 

1 hour ago, Master39 said:

Look back in Nate's forum account, I don't remember if it was under one of the Dev diaries or under a show and tell but someone was speculating about the idea and he quoted the speculation saying "that's pretty much how is going to work" or something similar.

Right now I can't search for it.

Found it:

 

[Pthigrivi]

Nice! I hadn't seen that. "Pretty accurate" would imply most of that is in play. Noting that it works for resource harvesting is interesting too. 

What do you guys think about actually modeling these journeys in the background? I mean it would be cool to see it autopilot to a landing site if you happened to be there, but is it just another potential point of failure that might be frustrating and random feeling?

Edited April 25, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[shdwlrd]

1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

Nice! I hadn't seen that. "Pretty accurate" would imply most of that is in play. Noting that it works for resource harvesting is interesting too. 

What do you guys think about actually modeling these journeys in the background? I mean it would be cool to see it autopilot to a landing site if you happened to be there, but is it just another potential point of failure that might be frustrating and random feeling?

It would be cool to see. But you’re right, it's another point of failure that can lead to frustration. Imagine, you barely stick the landing, and having to watch that poor landing again. Or you adjust your colony and you see your craft go plowing into the buildings cause they weren't there when you first recorded the route.

[The Aziz]

5 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

you adjust your colony and you see your craft go plowing into the buildings cause they weren't there when you first recorded the route

Why would I change the location of my landing pad if I have entire planet to work with?

Anyway, you say it like the planets were static points in space. They're not. Nobody can expect the cargo ships to arrive at the same time of the year and day every time (so the positions of the base are the same and thus, executed maneuvers are the same). My bet is there will be some automation to the automation, it's going to be simplified to "made a supply run on x amount of fuel, repeat that with the same rocket". With assumed proper mission planning, it should know when the optimal, or similar transfer window is, launch, transfer, get into orbit and land on available landing pad using similar amount of fuel. But agreed on one thing, you should see the landing, even if it's perfect every time.

[shdwlrd]

8 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Why would I change the location of my landing pad if I have entire planet to work with?

I don't know why you would, but I would build up the approach side of my colony because I will forget what the approach direction is.

8 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Anyway, you say it like the planets were static points in space. They're not. Nobody can expect the cargo ships to arrive at the same time of the year and day every time (so the positions of the base are the same and thus, executed maneuvers are the same). My bet is there will be some automation to the automation, it's going to be simplified to "made a supply run on x amount of fuel, repeat that with the same rocket". With assumed proper mission planning, it should know when the optimal, or similar transfer window is, launch, transfer, get into orbit and land on available landing pad using similar amount of fuel. But agreed on one thing, you should see the landing, even if it's perfect every time.

What? I can't describe the situation from the view point of the colony? Which would be a static point from that point of view.

I don't know how you would setup an automatic route from orbit to surface or vice-versa. I would have it setup from a station to the colony. At that point the automation would be fairly regular. So the only thing that would be recorded is the actual landing or docking, whether it's good or bad. The rest is a series of recorded maneuver nodes executed at certain times and coordinates.

That's my current thought process for the scenario, not caring what Nate said about automation.

[Pthigrivi]

My main worry with full automation for these deliveries is that a lot of people can travel and land more efficiently than MechJeb can. Now, maybe KSP2 can greatly improve upon that, but if any significant number of players can still do it with less fuel manually you'll have a lot of cases of automated deliveries running out of fuel several hundred meters above the target, or before they're able to zero out relative velocity with a station they're docking to. 

[whatsEJstandfor]

48 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

My main worry with full automation for these deliveries is that a lot of people can travel and land more efficiently than MechJeb can. Now, maybe KSP2 can greatly improve upon that, but if any significant number of players can still do it with less fuel manually you'll have a lot of cases of automated deliveries running out of fuel several hundred meters above the target, or before they're able to zero out relative velocity with a station they're docking to. 

My understanding based on Nate's response was that if you, say, do a very efficient round-trip mission to the Mun, all your future automated trips will more-or-less be identical to that amount of efficiency.

[Pthigrivi]

It's a little vague, but it depends what you mean by 'automated'. Is that the transfers are invisible, that the quantities just appear at the end locations at the appropriate time automatically? Or you can see the flight-plan of the in-transit vessel but the vessel itself isn't physically modeled? Or are there literally physically modeled vessels being controlled in the background by AI everywhere? 

[MechBFP]

43 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

It's a little vague, but it depends what you mean by 'automated'. Is that the transfers are invisible, that the quantities just appear at the end locations at the appropriate time automatically? Or you can see the flight-plan of the in-transit vessel but the vessel itself isn't physically modeled? Or are there literally physically modeled vessels being controlled in the background by AI everywhere? 

We will have to wait and see. 
 

If I was a game designer though I would abstract the actual travel portion and simply spawn in the ship during the times the player would see it, such as landing, takeoff, or when your ship is getting close to it, as that is really the only parts the player is going to care about.