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Posted (edited)

Found this interesting on several levels. 

First it's about effective ways to communicate science knowledge - and highlights some of the problems with 'the way its done' 

Secondly because I regularly visit the place that showcases the successful method.  Stuttgart Arkansas, near Bayou Meta is a place I've gone duck hunting every year for almost two decades.  It's beautiful, exquisitely rural and a dichotomy of bass ackwards and technology forward (the high tech stuff is largely limited to farming and hunting, for the most part - but in every place like this, you find doctors, lawyers, engineers, chemists and other educated professionals living alongside everyone else).  Point being; the people living there ain't stupid - but they have a unique environment that doesn't relate to the city dwellers' proclamations of how to fix a problem (or even what the problem likely is). 

There is an annoying part about why people resisted the nannying around Covid - but rather than understanding the difference between rural and city population and attitudes, it dumps down on religion and politics in a fairly condescending way - as if 'unless you did what New York / California did, you were wrong'. 

I invite those who quail at communicating their pet 'why won't people learn' or 'why is it so hard to understand the science' ideas to read and think about what part the communications strategy may play in seeing the change you might hope for. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-being-anti-science-is-now-part-of-many-rural-americans-identity/amp/

(FWIW - I think the title is a little misleading; frankly it exacerbates the issue and highlights the 'biased elite' problem of proclaiming from on high. 

... 

If you want to be heard - get a little dirt under your fingernails! 

Edited by JoeSchmuckatelli
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@JoeSchmuckatelli

I didn't see any answers in that article on how to address this disparity in any actionable way. I also don't need to be reminded of the tautology of people only caring about what they care about and not caring about what they don't care about.

Why is it always the ubanites, intellectuals, and progressives that are always told they have to understand and sympathize with the rural, anti-intellectual, conservatives? Why does the large majority of us that are capable and comfortable living among large diverse groups of our fellow humans have to always bow to the demands of those that can't? If rural America is so great why does practically no one live there? I'm tired of being told that cities aren't the "real America." I'm tired of being told that people who educate themselves and put in a lifetime of study on highly skilled, thoroughly documented, exhaustively researched disciplines don't have the "common sense understanding" of people who put more faith in the unexamined anecdotes of the few dozen people they know personally.

Yes, I'm bitter. Yes, I'm angry. And YES I'm venting. And this comment will probably get deleted for politics, but it doesn't matter because I've entirely given up hope that any progress in our political discourse, ability to govern, or cooperate on improving this country can be achieved even in the slightest.

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9 minutes ago, HvP said:

 

Why is it always the ubanites, intellectuals, and progressives that are always told they have to understand and sympathize with the rural, anti-intellectual, conservatives? Why does the large majority of us that are capable and comfortable living among large diverse groups of our fellow humans have to always bow to the demands of those that can't? If rural America is so great why does practically no one live there? I'm tired of being told that cities aren't the "real America." I'm tired of being told that people who educate themselves and put in a lifetime of study on highly skilled, thoroughly documented, exhaustively researched disciplines don't have the "common sense understanding" of people who put more faith in the unexamined anecdotes of the few dozen people they know personally.

Do you like to eat?

Personally, I am quite content for the people who are growing my food to focus on how to do that the best way possible and not waste time worrying about the (often) made-up problems of the people who want to eat it.

There are a *lot* of rules and laws already in place for food producers, and agricultural technologies are constantly advancing.  Even for a full-time farmer or rancher, that does not leave a lot of head-space to worry about the behaviors of all those people who *need* that food to survive.(not unless they want to neglect their livelihood which *always* has things that can be done to repair, maintain, or improve the results)

If your greatest pathogen exposure is spending one hour per week with your family in a room with perhaps 20 other families who also have trivial levels of exposure, your concerns over something like COVID will be different from that of someone who spends 8+ hours each day in an office with people from 50-100 other families, each of which has children in different schools giving exposure to hundreds of other families with a potential transmission delay measured in minutes or single digit hours.

TLDR: 

If you want someone to do something for *your* piece of mind that will not meaningfully benefit them, then you are the one that needs to do the convincing.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, HvP said:

is it always the ubanites, intellectuals, and progressives that are always told they have to understand and sympathize with the rural, anti-intellectual, conservatives

I've heard variations on this argument from time to time - and agree that there are prejudices on both sides about each other that, like most prejudices, aren't rooted in fact or even solid opinions.  I certainly never suggested what you describe in my quote... 

 

My point - and the thing I like about the article - is that here was a government agency that knew its audience and successfully communicated with that audience. The take-away being using a technique similar to what we in the Marines called 'mission type orders' and pushing authority down to the user level - has benefits. 

The particular issues of any problem tend to be intensely local and often require local solutions that look different in a rural area than in a dense urban city.  Neither are 'wrong' if both solve the underlying problem. 

 

 

Edited by JoeSchmuckatelli
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38 minutes ago, Terwin said:

If you want someone to do something for *your* piece of mind that will not meaningfully benefit them, then you are the one that needs to do the convincing.

Fine, they grow food and we not only pay them for the service but also subsidize their profit potential, dedicate entire branches of federal research to advance farming techniques, invasive species identification and control, satellite weather and climate study, soil hydrology, and a myriad other publicly financed areas of research to support each other because we understand that a civil society means mutually supporting each other.

But when the tables are turned, when the cities need the cooperation of the rural population so as to not become a reservoir for disease, or to help protect minorities, or to stop gerrymandering, or to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels - we get told to jump off the nearest bridge.

5 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

a government agency that knew its audience and successfully communicated with that audience.

... about something that they already cared about. But that doesn't work when they don't care. When they don't care about the consequences because it happens to someone else they dislike;  when they don't care who they hurt because they don't see those other people as part of their community; when they don't care who they poison because they profit from it.

I'm done trying to care about people who don't care about me.

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2 minutes ago, HvP said:

Reduce our dependency on fossil fuels

Let me cherry pick this one (as hopefully less emotionally charged). 

I'm betting you can come up with a dozen 'good ideas' that would help city dwellers reduce fossil fuel dependency. 

How many of those are practicable in areas where there are 5-15 miles between towns? 

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Posted (edited)

@HvP good ones!

Although: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/10/climate/driving-emissions-map.html

"Every city has some workable strategies to lower vehicle-related greenhouse gas emissions,” Dr. Niemeier said, but the right mix depends on local conditions, including existing development patterns and infrastructure. “What works in New York City will not work in Dallas-Fort Worth,” she said.

 

No matter the mechanism, Dr. Gately of Boston University said, “Big, long-term change needs to happen in America’s cities"

Edited by JoeSchmuckatelli
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1 hour ago, HvP said:

But that doesn't work when they don't care

Oh and about this - the article I linked addresses this directly:

"In subsequent research conducted before the pandemic, Motta and his colleagues found possible paths to countering vaccine hesitancy. “One way we can try to get skeptics on board with vaccinating is to just make an effort to understand why they’re skeptical, and portray the benefits of vaccinating in those terms,” Motta said. For example, Americans who felt that vaccines tainted their moral/bodily purity were given information about how viruses also attacked and invaded the body, which raised their opinions of vaccines. 

The COVID-19 vaccines, however, were rolled out without much of that targeted messaging. Worsening the matter, then-President Donald Trump... "

At our Moderators: I'd like to request a little leeway in the current discussion.  I think the players can handle this - and of course I accept any decisions made if we can't... But thus far we are having a productive dialog

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1 hour ago, HvP said:

I'm done trying to care about people who don't care about me.

As someone who does live on a farm, although it is not mine, I do live in the community here.   They do care, but like anybody else, if it's not their pressing need, it falls behind those needs that are.  I work in the suburbs.  The same thing applies.   My girlfriend lives in hipster central downtown of a major urban center, and the same thing still applies.  

People are aware of what is in front of them, and only take care of what's immediate to them.   Once those needs are satisfied, then they will look towards helping others.   It's basic human nature. 

The farmer's work in a co-op style.   There are dozens and dozens of vary large "vegative" farms (I say that instead of produce, since a good number of them are soy), and a few livestock (There's actually a huge elk farm, which is odd for Ohio, and oddly an unexpectedly large number of small alpaca farms).    Most of the farmers hold full time jobs, while only a couple of them actually own the heavy machinery required to operate farms like these.  They schedule their days to have the machinery come in, and the work gets done.    While they do hold regular jobs, they're not commuters like myself, so the jobs aren't usually the best paying, and the farms make up their majority of their annual income, while also being a significant expenditure.  They are focused on being the most efficient they can be, and that means industrialized modern farming techniques. 

When I'm in the suburbs (where I'm from originally), everybody is all about ease of access and best value. 

In the city, the groceries are all organic etc etc type stuff, because that's what they think they want.   Personally, I hate it, as I'm used to getting 3x as much stuff for 1/2 the price, but that's mainly cause I live near the source of all it and most people around here have larger families (there's a very large Amish population too), so the grocery (singular, there's 1 in about 20 miles) caters to them. 

Each group of people aren't truly considering the needs of the others. 

Of course, my statements themselves can be considered stereotypical and over reaching, but that's kind of the point of my post too.  We know what we see. 

Now, putting on the moderator hat, let's avoid any talk of political stuff.  I'm going to let the thread be as is, it's pushing the edge of what we allow on a good day.  If we want to discuss the economics, logistics, education and needs of the various regions, do so, but please avoid making statements that we would consider political.   Thank you. 

Edited by Gargamel
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27 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

and the farms make up their majority of their annual income, while also being a significant expenditure.  They are focused on being the most efficient they can be, and that means industrialized modern farming techniques. 

Out of curiosity, have they looked into agrivoltaics? That seems poised to be the next evolution, if not revolution, in agriculture, I imagine it would be especially effective for animal husbandry....

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

We know what we see

Yup. 

I'll add that altruism is actually a human survival trait.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2012/11/human-nature-crisis/amp

So... People will take care of themselves, and their family, and their communities first - they address the needs they see - but they will also take care of the other when the need arises 

 

Also (not entirely contra) 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09713336221080624

 

Edited by JoeSchmuckatelli
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14 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Out of curiosity, have they looked into agrivoltaics? That seems poised to be the next evolution, if not revolution, in agriculture, I imagine it would be especially effective for animal husbandry....

There is an interesting phenomenon happening in the Midwest that I almost think of as cynical. 

Companies are buying/long-term leasing farmland and covering the ground with solar panels.  A lot of it is happening in Indiana, Ohio and Kentucky.  Places that - at least from the map in this article (and my experience) aren't ideal from a sunlight (average sunny days) standpoint. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/07/13/map-where-americas-sunniest-and-least-sunny-places-are/

The states I referred to are in 'blue(ish)' zones. 

The cynicism is so that they can claim 'our power comes from renewable energy'... Even though they, and much of their use is in California or scattered around the country - including places like Texas.  (The issue is that while the power might be hitting the grid - its not the most efficient solar (just cheaper land) and isn't necessarily reducing their actual reliance on non renewable energy supply). 

These installations do not allow for agrivoltaics - even if there was a way to efficiently farm under the structures. 

Agrivoltaics is a cool idea - but currently better suited to a 'community farm' or 'personal veggie patch' rather than commercial farming.  Until / unless dedicated machinery is developed to work with a standard of photovoltaic installation - I think it will remain a quaint idea instead of a good practice / multisector partnership program. 

(that is, at least in the US... Places with a lot of readily available farm labor may differ) 

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52 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

even if there was a way to efficiently farm under the structures. 

Hemp + caring hands of volunteers. They will do all themselves.

Even the brand is obvious: "Green Powah Of Sun"

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Posted (edited)
On 5/5/2022 at 2:40 PM, kerbiloid said:

*When I visit the Nature Natural History Museum in London and first time see the diamond, not in the level of 'jewelleries', but in the level of 'geological samples'*

"Now I know why those dragons like something shiny"

Edited by steve9728
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