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2 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

I'm saying I won't use it. I'm not saying it can't be handy. But when you say something like "I feel" it turns your statement into an opinion. That doesn't help your point. If I was really dead set with no scripting for KSP2, the paragraph below would be my argument.

"How many active players use KOS? How many players use the mission builder? Compare that to how many active PC players there are? You can't trust download numbers. I'm sure there are many who downloaded KOS just to check it out or a cool script, and nothing more. I'm one of them. You can't trust the numbers of people who either follow the thread or git repository. So how do you know how many players will actually use scripts in their game? A thousand? A few thousand?"

I'm not against having stock scripting support for KSP2. It would be a boon for modders. But an in-game, completely fleshed out, made safe, and usable scripting language. It's not necessary for release. It could either be an update later on or an official mod or a cheap DLC or a mod.

I never wanted to make a fleshed out argument, I just think it would be cool. The way you worded it made it sound like you were saying, “It shouldn’t ever be put in the game because I can’t code.” and I’m sorry I misunderstood you. But I agree with your last point that it would make a nice update or dlc.

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15 hours ago, MStefan99 said:

While a "normal" programming language will be more flexible, it will almost certainly be less approachable, especially for those who haven't done any coding before. I think kOS would have much more users if it had a nicer syntax or something more visual like Scratch. I personally quit kOS after making a few scripts because I didn't feel like learning the syntax, and I'm a professional developer.

Sorry I was unclear here. I do think a Scratch like system would be better. My problem with the KAL-9000 is that it's a timeline, not a line of events. (Probably explained very poorly)

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1 hour ago, BowlerHatGuy2 said:

I never wanted to make a fleshed out argument, I just think it would be cool. The way you worded it made it sound like you were saying, “It shouldn’t ever be put in the game because I can’t code.” and I’m sorry I misunderstood you. But I agree with your last point that it would make a nice update or dlc.

No problem. The only real issue I have with these little niche use case requests is that such a small number of players can/will actually use them. In the case of scripting, you can't use it on consoles. (Well, kind of. Check out Keen's forums for Space Engineers to see the work around they use. That doesn't mean Intercept will do the same.) That means only PC players will have access to something that is considered a game feature. (No, having unlimited access to mods isn't considered a game feature. It's a perk, not a feature.) So what do you do then? You will have to add something to the console version to appease those players. At that point, the base game feature parity between consoles and PC is different. That can have a negative effect on future versions of the game.

It's ok for the PC version to have stock scripting support, but not include anyway to access it from the vanilla version of the game. That way you can pull scripting support from the console version and keep some type of  game feature parity between the two. Then you can release a separate "add-on" for PC only that adds access to scripts. (Either a sanitized version for general use and/or a modding specific version.) Yes, the console players are technical getting shafted, but what is considered vanilla, they are not.

It's ok to ask for something you would like to see in the game, it will give modders and devs an idea of what users would like to see. But for something you would like to see as stock, it really should be something everyone can and be willing to use for all versions.

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  • 2 months later...

I found some interesting info you guys might like. One of the Software Engineers / Managers @ PD, who has been working on KSP2 since the beginning, has:

1. Previously worked on DragonDrop - an educational IDE used to make programming more accessible for kids and teens.

Spoiler

fradybot.png

2. Worked on the VAB, but also on KSP2 "dynamic scripting features", and on "laying the foundations for a variety of systems from an in-game scaled down map to input and state management".

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I personally find scripting a lot of fun, far more fun than manually piloting - particularly orbital ascents, which get tiresome real fast especially when you're building stations etc.

My grand hope is that the multiplayer feature will remove the control bubble limitation and allow more than one inflight craft to be under active control via scripts at the same time. It's the only way to do reusable launchers a la Falcon 9, and if you can manually fly a suicide burn you're a better pilot than me.

If scripting isn't in the base game, I'll be holding out for kOS2. But it would be a great addition in the base game.

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23 hours ago, Ember12 said:

We know that there will be automatic supply missions, and I can't imagine how those would work without scripting.

We've talked about this in the past, and scripting definitely isn't required, though it might be fun for a lot of people. It comes down to whether these supply runs will be physical craft literally making the journey from end to end or if they're more virtual, with resources being subtracted on one end and deposited on the other end based on player scheduling and expected transit times. While the former would be cool to see there are a lot of reasons why doing it virtually might cause fewer issues and be simpler for players to manage. Same with stage recovery. Their maneuvers could be scripted all the way to the pad, or they could just be assumed recovered if the right conditions are met, like a player executing a boost-back and landing with that subassembly, and then marking it recoverable on future use.  

Edited by Pthigrivi
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On 4/13/2022 at 6:35 PM, shdwlrd said:

It really depends. If Intercept keeps the API'S for Luna accessible, then the impact should be negligible. There still will be an impact though. If they don't, then you will have a KOS situation where it updates every 3rd of a second. They can't have it update any more than that because it will tank KSP's performance.

Couldn't something like this just receive its own processing thread basically turning any potential impact to 0? 

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1 hour ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Couldn't something like this just receive its own processing thread basically turning any potential impact to 0? 

Don't know, I'm not an expert with Unity. The only reason I know how KOS works is because the basic operation and impacts are spelled out in the thread and git. 

What I do know is if you need to run code through multiple translation layers, you can get some serious performance hits. So the least number of steps the better.

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14 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

Don't know, I'm not an expert with Unity. The only reason I know how KOS works is because the basic operation and impacts are spelled out in the thread and git. 

What I do know is if you need to run code through multiple translation layers, you can get some serious performance hits. So the least number of steps the better.

I would imagine at most if someone doesn't use scripts there would be a check to whether or not one is even present and if not to continue on as normal. If something like this isn't possible or even gets overlooked I would genuinely be astounded, especially since performance seems to be the devs #1 goal above all else.  Also, if a VPL were to be implemented by the devs I doubt kOS would be a good predictor of performance. Personally though, I'd just like to see more people have the ability to pull things like this off:

 

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Personally, I feel like there should even be a setting for "hard mode" where you have to program rockets and satellites in order to fly them, even space shuttle re-entry would be an interesting feat that I've seen people conquer with kOS. And even making it so you have light speed delays for downloading scripts onto a craft already launched and on its way to Duna or even Eeloo would have a tremendous effect on gameplay. It would make interstellar travel interesting in the fact that you'd have to plan the entire mission before hand, even the landing, unless of course it was a crewed mission, then you'd be able to program the craft directly through a pilot as long as they had the high enough skill set.

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19 minutes ago, BigStar Aerospace said:

Personally, I feel like there should even be a setting for "hard mode" where you have to program rockets and satellites in order to fly them, even space shuttle re-entry would be an interesting feat that I've seen people conquer with kOS. And even making it so you have light speed delays for downloading scripts onto a craft already launched and on its way to Duna or even Eeloo would have a tremendous effect on gameplay. It would make interstellar travel interesting in the fact that you'd have to plan the entire mission before hand, even the landing, unless of course it was a crewed mission, then you'd be able to program the craft directly through a pilot as long as they had the high enough skill set.

What about the console players? Console players can't run nor share non-native scripts on both the XB or PS. Why add a mandatory requirement that a percentage of players can't do? Why add a mandatory requirement that most PC players won't use? It's one thing if you want to program every little control for your craft. I'm sure that a majority of players wouldn't want to either.

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20 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

What about the console players? Console players can't run nor share non-native scripts on both the XB or PS. Why add a mandatory requirement that a percentage of players can't do? Why add a mandatory requirement that most PC players won't use? It's one thing if you want to program every little control for your craft. I'm sure that a majority of players wouldn't want to either.

It's just a suggestion for those more hardcore players and I who personally plays it on PS4 wouldn't mind hooking up a keyboard to my console and a mouse in order to put scripts together, and the non-native scripts would be possible on console because on a game such as Fallout 4 you can download mods through an in- game "Mods" menu on the main menu that gives you access to mods that have been uploaded for the PS4 version. Which means that we would only need an in-game menu that allows us to see scripts that have been uploaded and then we read them and download them. We could even use that menu as a CKAN type platform for downloading mods in the future which would be very nice.

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2 hours ago, BigStar Aerospace said:

It's just a suggestion for those more hardcore players and I who personally plays it on PS4 wouldn't mind hooking up a keyboard to my console and a mouse in order to put scripts together, and the non-native scripts would be possible on console because on a game such as Fallout 4 you can download mods through an in- game "Mods" menu on the main menu that gives you access to mods that have been uploaded for the PS4 version. Which means that we would only need an in-game menu that allows us to see scripts that have been uploaded and then we read them and download them. We could even use that menu as a CKAN type platform for downloading mods in the future which would be very nice.

Everything I've read on both Microsoft's and Sony's sites say they don't allow the running, creating, or sharing of 3rd party scripts on their consoles. A user created script in game or downloaded is considered a 3rd party script, so it wouldn't be allowed in the game. Intercept won't even be allowed to publish KSP2 on consoles if it has the ability to run scripts. The only way have scripts in the game is to have them published along with the main game or passed through Sony's certification board as DLC. That's it. Any other way of doing it is against the respective companies EULA. 

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11 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

Everything I've read on both Microsoft's and Sony's sites say they don't allow the running, creating, or sharing of 3rd party scripts on their consoles. A user created script in game or downloaded is considered a 3rd party script, so it wouldn't be allowed in the game. Intercept won't even be allowed to publish KSP2 on consoles if it has the ability to run scripts. The only way have scripts in the game is to have them published along with the main game or passed through Sony's certification board as DLC. That's it. Any other way of doing it is against the respective companies EULA. 

Wait a moment, I know for a fact that Minecraft has integrated scripting functionality with their custom command block system. This even extends to external downloadable files that run scripts hosted on the bedrock edition marketplace. Are they against scripting as a whole, or only scripting that can interfere with system files? Or are Microsoft games just exceptions?

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10 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

Everything I've read on both Microsoft's and Sony's sites say they don't allow the running, creating, or sharing of 3rd party scripts on their consoles. A user created script in game or downloaded is considered a 3rd party script, so it wouldn't be allowed in the game. Intercept won't even be allowed to publish KSP2 on consoles if it has the ability to run scripts. The only way have scripts in the game is to have them published along with the main game or passed through Sony's certification board as DLC. That's it. Any other way of doing it is against the respective companies EULA. 

Would a dev made VPL in game really count as a 3rd party script? O_o

Care to pass on the literature you're referencing?

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25 minutes ago, t_v said:

Are they against scripting as a whole, or only scripting that can interfere with system files?

As I'm not familiar with Minecraft's scripting, I won't comment on that. 

Basically anything that can possibly be used in an unauthorized way to access the hardware or software isn't allowed. (Similar to the warning that KOS can be used outside of it's intended purpose and to be very careful what scripts you download and run.)

If you look at Keen's forums for Space Engineers, they spell out exactly why 3rd party scripts aren't allowed for the Xbox and their solution for it. Since Sony has very similar rules, the same applies with them.

@mcwaffles2003 I can't. The rules for scripting (amongst other criteria for certification) is provided by MS and Sony to their registered developers only. If you look at any game that deals exclusively with scripting or programming, they will explain why they can't release them to consoles. (Basically, they are not allowed to.)

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On 6/29/2022 at 1:08 AM, shdwlrd said:

Everything I've read on both Microsoft's and Sony's sites say they don't allow the running, creating, or sharing of 3rd party scripts on their consoles. A user created script in game or downloaded is considered a 3rd party script, so it wouldn't be allowed in the game. Intercept won't even be allowed to publish KSP2 on consoles if it has the ability to run scripts. The only way have scripts in the game is to have them published along with the main game or passed through Sony's certification board as DLC. That's it. Any other way of doing it is against the respective companies EULA. 

Honestly screw console players.

You wanted the closed garden ecosystem BS, you deal with it. I certainly hope they don't start castrating KSP2 to make it work the same on consoles. Make a PC version with all the features as designed and then hire some external studio to port what is portable on console, regardless of feature parity.

Just remember that if they focus on parity modding and moddability could be one of the first things to fall.

 

On 4/15/2022 at 3:30 AM, shdwlrd said:

But for something you would like to see as stock, it really should be something everyone can and be willing to use

Imagine they replaced the KAL and the action group interface with the VPL one, instead of having the standard interface you now have the same, but it's a visual scripting page.

10 two blocks lines, "Button press [1] => [CLICK HERE TO INSERT AN ACTION]", exactly like the action groups, same for brakes, gears, lights and so on.

For people that don't want to program nothing would change.

Someone at some point will se that they can change the condition, and replace "Button press [1]" with "Altitude < 5000.0" and do it, it's not exactly programming but it's automation, and simple enough that doesn't even need an explanation on how it works (it's way easier than whatever the KAL is supposed to be).

From there to a complete reentry, land and deploy procedure for a simple parachute probe the jump is minimal and within most players reach (retrograde hold during reentry, stage shield and parachute under a certain altitude, deploy solar panel and antennas after touchdown).

Do you really think people wouldn't use that? That is somehow harder than KAL or using action groups?

Programming and scripting doesn't necessarily mean programming an entire mission to work on its own.

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@Master39 I know that there are players for both consoles and PC that want and will use scripting. I'm not arguing that point. What I'm saying is any scripting added to the game that is as powerful as KOS won't be cleared for release on consoles. Nothing more, nothing less.

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2 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

What I'm saying is any scripting added to the game that is as powerful as KOS won't be cleared for release on consoles

And I should accept a worse game because of consoles?

Once again I'll repeat, screw consoles.

The separate release makes me hopefull for another porting made by a third party like KSP1, a separate thing, organized by the publisher and with 2 or 3 layers of separation between the porting and the development of the PC "main" version.

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1 hour ago, shdwlrd said:

You play on PC right? So how does the fact that scripting support isn't allowed on consoles affect you?

That's the point, it shouldn't. 

What is possible or not on console shouldn't even enter the argument, it doesn't matter.

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On 6/27/2022 at 10:15 AM, Pthigrivi said:

[...]  It comes down to whether these supply runs will be physical craft literally making the journey from end to end or if they're more virtual, with resources being subtracted on one end and deposited on the other end based on player scheduling and expected transit times. [...]

Physical? It's all inside a virtual computer generated universe for starters... :)

(Charles Petzold ruined my life forever)

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On 6/28/2022 at 7:08 PM, shdwlrd said:

Everything I've read on both Microsoft's and Sony's sites say they don't allow the running, creating, or sharing of 3rd party scripts on their consoles. A user created script in game or downloaded is considered a 3rd party script, so it wouldn't be allowed in the game. Intercept won't even be allowed to publish KSP2 on consoles if it has the ability to run scripts. The only way have scripts in the game is to have them published along with the main game or passed through Sony's certification board as DLC. That's it. Any other way of doing it is against the respective companies EULA. 

I'm under the impression that Minecraft allows scripts, on both xbox and playstation

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