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Release Date Update from the KSP2 Team


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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Master39 said:

You very conveniently ignored the half of what you're replying to that tried to remind you that's not only COVID, but a change in studio during COVID that set off the bigger delays.

Also, wild speculation, perhaps the unwillingness of the original studio to devote the time and resources necessary to do the game right had something to do with the dramatic departure of most of the dev team and studio change. 
 

I also work in an industry where 90% of projects run over on time and money so it doesn’t shock me. Yes sometimes its poor management but more often its the unforeseeable chaos of the world. There’s always a point where a choice must be made, rush it and compromise quality or take a few months to follow through properly. Rarely do folks in the latter batch regret it. 

Edited by Pthigrivi
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2 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

perhaps the unwillingness of the original studio to devote the time and resources necessary to do the game right had something to do with the dramatic departure of most of the dev team and studio change

Didn't most of the dev team move to the new studio to continue work on the game? To me it looks like the dev team had (still have) the spirit to bring us the best sequel they could, but perhaps Star Theory management/whoever wasn't that enthusiastic about the project, and didn't spare enough resources to make it happen. And so, when T2 saw a very positive response from the fanbase, they decided to shut down the old studio, bringing the team under their wings, allowing devs to increase the scope of the game and make it more than originally planned. But we can only speculate as we'll probably never learn the true story.

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2 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

 

I also work in an industry where 90% of projects run over on time and money so it doesn’t shock me.

Same here. When a project is on time and on budget I am extremely skeptical of what that project is delivering or how it was actually managed because it usually seems like a “too good to be true” situation. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

 But we can only speculate as we'll probably never learn the true story.

100% this. I probably shouldn't have even opened the can of worms, but yeah, just throwing it out there as a plausible possibility. Regardless it does seem to be a passion project for the folks involved. 

Edited by Pthigrivi
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Master39 said:

You very conveniently ignored the half of what you're replying to that tried to remind you that's not only COVID, but a change in studio during COVID that set off the bigger delays.

Because it tries to imply that a game set for release in 5 months from announced can be delayed 3 years only over studio reshuffles. The first delay, as I said, I'd understand, Covid pushed the game back a year whilst they sorted the Covid+PI mess. The rest remains unexplained, he said it himself that way too: 

9 hours ago, PopinFRESH said:

I'd say Covid 19 had an impact on the first delay to Q3 2021.

28 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

100% this. I probably shouldn't have even opened the can of worms, but yeah, just throwing it out there as a plausible possibility. Regardless it does seem to be a passion project for the folks involved. 

Which is 100% their fault for not being transparent. I'll not believe any "passion project" copout with T2 behind it.

Edited by PDCWolf
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4 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Which is 100% their fault for not being transparent. I'll not believe any "passion project" copout with T2 behind it.

Well you are well within your rights to be skeptical of big studios. Most of my trust here comes from the impression I get hearing  folks from intercept talk about process in the dev videos and dev blogs. The proof is in the pudding of course but it sure looks like they’re taking the time to be thoughtful and make something really special. 

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9 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

For that to be true, they'd have to backpedal on what's been the main business policy of the videogames industry: Sending early review/PR copies to big media outlets and youtubers. KSP has been doing this since the "public test branch" outrage. This leaves the average consumer only 2 options: Read and spoil yourself, or be forced to a blind purchase. Now, it is pretty much a given that gaming is the only market where the informed consumer is beaten and looked down on, but listen to this:

People that want to make a blind purchase should be the ones forcing themselves to, and not forcing everyone else to do as them.

They don't have to walk back on anything. They could easily put a "don't show X/Y/Z in your coverage" condition for those review copies. Its pretty common, and a lot of games have soft "don't go past X or Y" in their policies these days for streaming and content creation. Most people have some handful of trusted creators they follow, and if someone like Scott Manly or Quill18 said "I can't show you how colonies work until the release date but I've got one on the mun and its amazing" that would be enough for me to be confident in the product, and a lot of people would be the same.

This is not an all or nothing field, they can keep secrets about gameplay systems while still allowing content creators to confirm the state and quality of the game.

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18 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Well you are well within your rights to be skeptical of big studios. Most of my trust here comes from the impression I get hearing  folks from intercept talk about process in the dev videos and dev blogs. The proof is in the pudding of course but it sure looks like they’re taking the time to be thoughtful and make something really special. 

We need to stop perpetuating the myth that delay = better product. We don't know the current state of the product, or the reason behind the delay. Spore, Crackdown, Duke Nukem, FFXV, FFVII Remake, Cyberpunk, latest Watch_Dogs, Halo Infinite, Hydroneer 2.0, Diablo 3, and a longer yet list, that's still growing too. The quote so often thrown around was made at a time where you couldn't just live-patch your game after release, so not only doesn't apply because it's just outdated (and didn't apply much back then either), it also doesn't apply because the industry works in a fundamentally different way. 

Delay = The promised product at best. On the average case, it means they needed extra time to release whatever broken, mandatory 0 day patch product they already planned to release.

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Just now, PDCWolf said:

We need to stop perpetuating the myth that delay = better product. We don't know the current state of the product, or the reason behind the delay. Spore, Crackdown, Duke Nukem, FFXV, FFVII Remake, Cyberpunk, latest Watch_Dogs, Halo Infinite, Hydroneer 2.0, Diablo 3, and a longer yet list, that's still growing too. The quote so often thrown around was made at a time where you couldn't just live-patch your game after release, so not only doesn't apply because it's just outdated (and didn't apply much back then either), it also doesn't apply because the industry works in a fundamentally different way. 

Delay = The promised product at best. On the average case, it means they needed extra time to release whatever broken, mandatory 0 day patch product they already planned to release.

On the same hand you need to stop perpetuating the myth that a delay means the team is doing a bad job. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

Because it tries to imply that a game set for release in 5 months from announced can be delayed 3 years only over studio reshuffles.

Not "studio reshuffles", you're making it sound like they just fired a couple of people, opening a new studio from scratch, that didn't exist before, during the first COVID lockdowns and work from home orders.

On top of that you can add the increased scope of the game with the new studio.

I know you desperately want to believe that there's something more sinister going on, but look around you, basically every other game or movie has been delayed over and over again for the past 2 years.

I'm trying to see the thing from the other point of view, KSP is not a cashgrab game, it's too niche for that and Private Division since buying the IP in 2017 put a lot of money in it with just the 2 15$ DLCs as the only new KSP content they sold. 

There's a lot of money being funneled in KSP2, remember, every time they delayed the game 1 year more meant another year of T2 investors footing the bill of the whole studio without the game generating any profit, they're showing a certain amount of confidence in the game.

And let's also add that people would gladly pay the 60$ for a modern remade version of KSP1 (maybe with just a more complex IRSU and progression mode) and then 30-40$ each for colonization, interstellar travel and multiplayer (I know it sounds unacceptable now, aftery they already announced them as part of the game).

 

I'd also say that with the original Star Theory KSP2 could have got away with a way more unpolished and unfinished experience as a third party studio working with PD than Intercept can now, 3 years later.

Especially now, after Cyberpunk, and a bunch of other AAA games launching in a sorry state and with some indie titles coming out of nowhere in early access with way more polish than we usually expect from such gsmes and surely more than KSP had in 1.0 (games that the KSP community may know like Timberborn or Dyson Sphere Program)

 

If they wanted to go for the greedy cashgrab they lost all possible trains, if they did want to cancel the project they wouldn't have reconfirmed the launch for this fiscal year to the investors, if something bad is really going on at this point it's at the publisher level someone funding studios and project without checking the results.

But looking at T2 and their labels overall I would say that they know a thing or two about publishing profitable games and cutting their losses, I wouldn't expect that kind of incompetence from them. Greedy yep, but surely not incompetent in what they do.

 

52 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

We need to stop perpetuating the myth that delay = better product. We don't know the current state of the product, or the reason behind the delay. Spore, Crackdown, Duke Nukem, FFXV, FFVII Remake, Cyberpunk, latest Watch_Dogs, Halo Infinite, Hydroneer 2.0, Diablo 3, and a longer yet list, that's still growing too. The quote so often thrown around was made at a time where you couldn't just live-patch your game after release, so not only doesn't apply because it's just outdated (and didn't apply much back then either), it also doesn't apply because the industry works in a fundamentally different way. 

Delay = The promised product at best. On the average case, it means they needed extra time to release whatever broken, mandatory 0 day patch product they already planned to release.

Both directions are equally dumb, delay = delay, you can't extrapolate any more information from it.

Because from every game that was delayed and was bad there's at least one that wasn't delayed enough and released in a sorry unpolished state after a crunch maraton for the studio involved.

Oftend the two overlap significantly.

Edited by Master39
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Posted (edited)

@PDCWolf Of course, we have no idea whether the game will be great or flawed but great or a let down, but a 3 month delay also doesn't change what we could know about that. All Im saying is when you hear these people talk about the game--the people who are actually doing the work--they seem completely passionate about producing a great product and I see no sign of deception or ill-intent. They're obviously hard at work, and if T2 is allowing them to take an extra couple months to get there and forfeit that lucrative pre-christmas sales window to get it right I see nothing wrong with that. 

Edited by Pthigrivi
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1 minute ago, Master39 said:

Not "studio reshuffles", you're making it sound like they just fired a couple of people, opening a new studio from scratch, that didn't exist before, during the first COVID lockdowns and work from home orders.

On top of that you can add the increased scope of the game with the new studio.

I know you desperately want to believe that there's something more sinister going on, but look around you, basically every other game or movie has been delayed over and over again for the past 2 years.

I'm trying to see the thing from the other point of view, KSP is not a cashgrab game, it's too niche for that and Private Division since buying the IP in 2017 put a lot of money in it with just the 2 15$ DLCs as the only new KSP content they sold. 

There's a lot of money being funneled in KSP2, remember, every time they delayed the game 1 year more meant another year of T2 investors footing the bill of the whole studio without the game generating any profit, they're showing a certain amount of confidence in the game.

And let's also add that people would gladly pay the 60$ for a modern remade version of KSP1 (maybe with just a more complex IRSU and progression mode) and then 30-40$ each for colonization, interstellar travel and multiplayer (I know it sounds unacceptable now, aftery they already announced them as part of the game).

 

I'd also say that with the original Star Theory KSP2 could have got away with a way more unpolished and unfinished experience as a third party studio working with PD than Intercept can now, 3 years later.

Especially now, after Cyberpunk, and a bunch of other AAA games launching in a sorry state and with some indie titles coming out of nowhere in early access with way more polish than we usually expect from such gsmes and surely more than KSP had in 1.0 (games that the KSP community may know like Timberborn or Dyson Sphere Program)

 

If they wanted to go for the greedy cashgrab they lost all possible trains, if they did want to cancel the project they wouldn't have reconfirmed the launch for this fiscsl year to the investors, if something bad is really going on at this point it's at the publisher level someone funding studios and project without checking the results.

But looking at T2 and their labels overall I would say that they know a thing or two about publishing profitable games and cutting their losses, I wouldn't expect that kind of incompetence from them. Greedy yep, but surely not incompetent in what they do.

 

Both directions are equally dumb, delay = delay, you can't extrapolate any more information from it.

Because from every game that was delayed and was bad there's at least one that wasn't delayed enough and released in a sorry unpolished state after a crunch maraton for the studio involved.

Oftend the two overlap significantly.

There's 0 proof that the scope has expanded. Their current promises still respect all of the original PAX statements. Also that people that would gladly spend 200 dollars on 4 independent DLCs they can get as mods of the first game for free exists only in this forum, in these threads, which have limited participation. Do not kid yourself to think KSP2 is big outside anywhere but the forum. Already the $60 tag will definitely alienate anyone who's not a fan of the first game, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot charging that.

You fail to understand that we, as community, have 0 power over them. This same dumb thinking plagued Cyberpunk's criticism: "It would be better if you hadn't rushed them to release it". That's bullcrap, if there was anyone rushing them to release it was shareholders, whom they promised release dividends to, other than that they don't give 2 cents about a group of 100 people in a thread begging for a release date inside their lifespan. On the other hand, we know full well what happens when you don't rush them, and that is you never ever get a product, kinda like Valve's shenanigans, kinda like DNF, Yandere Sim (lmao), Dead Island 2, Star Citizen, and again, a very long list to keep naming.

Just now, Pthigrivi said:

@PDCWolf they seem completely passionate about producing a great product and I see no sign of deception or ill-intent. They're obviously hard at work.

Which makes me come back to: The only thing that ever changed in trailers from PAX 2019 to Episode 5 in 2022 is new looking interstellar parts, which to their detriment is a change that happens to coincide with them incorporating the dev from the interstellar mod. State your position as it is: faith, almost religious level too.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Which makes me come back to: The only thing that ever changed in trailers from PAX 2019 to Episode 5 in 2022 is new looking interstellar parts, which to their detriment is a change that happens to coincide with them incorporating the dev from the interstellar mod. 

Man Id really advise you to take a tour through the dev blogs and show and tells over the last 18 months. Many of those interstellar engines were shown before Nertea signed on, not to mention a lot of other development both in terms of environment and terrain and things like resource processors, reactors, orbital shipyard components, etc. Maybe you just missed this stuff? 

Edited by Pthigrivi
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

There's 0 proof that the scope has expanded.

Except direct statements and clear differences in the planetary tech seen in different videos. You seem to have missed quite a lot of content, just look at mun in the PAX showcase and any later terrain showcase.

 

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

Also that people that would gladly spend 200 dollars on 4 independent DLCs

I'm not saying that they could have released a game with 200$ of DLCs on day one, I'm saying that they could have got away with the game only expanding slightly overKSP original scope and then develop and sell the rest over time, a DLC a year, starting a year after launch and going on for 4 or 5 years.

Yes, they promised all of that in the announcement, so now we expect it, but I'm certain that if they only inlcuded the remade codebase, better graphics and remade progression modes, maybe multiplayer, they would have had the same enthusiasm from the community.

 

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

they can get as mods of the first game for free exists only in this forum

Not the same level of gameplay content, polish, and integration. I honestly stopped in trying to fix KSP career and trying to shoehorn in it a use for bases and stations that isn't head canon, the game barely tolerates 2 crafts landing at the same place as it is.

Yep, you can have colonies and interstellar motherships in KSP1, if you're ready to deal with 5 to 7 years old documentation (when it exists), Seconds per Frame performance and the need to make backups of the backups every time you load a base, a colony or a mothership.

A bug forcing you to revert several hours of play because you forgot to make a backup and the colony you were trying to land at suddenly decided to go suborbital on its own on loading is where a lot of the "you can have KSP2 features in KSP1" saves die. And if it's not that then it's wheels, or landing legs, or things shaking apart, or things loading with every single part tilted 5 degrees on a random axis.

 

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

Do not kid yourself to think KSP2 is big outside anywhere but the forum.

Not thinking that, it's hard for it to be when there has been 0 marketing for it and, outside of the community, the only thing that comes to mind when people hear "Kerbal" is the infamous and unforgifing learning curve.

KSP is a hard game, true, but that's not the reason most players never reach Mun, the fact that they talked a lot about onboarding and tutorials it's already more effort and consideration than KSP1 ever saw on that front.

 

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

Already the $60 tag will definitely alienate anyone who's not a fan of the first game, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot charging that.

We'll see. Many people are stopped by the learning curve of KSP and its bugs more than anything else, if they make a stable game with that provides a good explanation of the notion you need to play the game it could easily gain new players that previously ignored or dropped the first game.

I already know a bunch of people that look forward to it exactly for that reason, for them not having to call me every time they need an explanation on how something works it's a good plus for the sequel, while they dropped or refunded the first game.

 

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

You fail to understand that we, as community, have 0 power over them. This same dumb thinking plagued Cyberpunk's criticism: "It would be better if you hadn't rushed them to release it". That's bullcrap, if there was anyone rushing them to release it was shareholders, whom they promised release dividends to, other than that they don't give 2 cents about a group of 100 people in a thread begging for a release date inside their lifespan.

Never talked about the "power of the community", cited 2 times the fact that investors are footing the bill (the fact that they expect a return is implied by calling them "investors") and started that digression with "KSP is too niche to be a cashgrab", that means that yes I know that KSP isn't big outside of the community.

Are you actually replying to me? Because I don't see how I'm "failing to undestand" (or "Kidding myself" over) things that I actually said in my comment.

 

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

On the other hand, we know full well what happens when you don't rush them, and that is you never ever get a product, kinda like Valve's shenanigans

Lol, are you actually serious? Basically the "toxic gamer" stereotype was born around Valve fans rushing them for Episode 3, Half Life 3 and TF2 updates. To the point of HL3 becoming a meme, and all that effort, all that pushing the studio, all that pressure where broght us? 14 years without a Half-life game at all, the argument becoming tabù between developers at the studio, and Valve continuing to do what they wanted to do when they wanted to do it.

You possibly choose the worse possible example of what you where trying to demonstrate. The fans pushing on Valve for the sequel not only didn't do anything to make them release a sequel earlier but also ensured that the franchise and everyithing around it it's a minefield for everyone working on anything Half-Life related.

Hell, it probably made difficult for Valve to release any game at all.

 

 

Edited by Master39
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

Man Id really advise you to take a tour through the dev blogs and show and tells over the last 18 months. Many of those interstellar engines were shown before Nertea signed on, not to mention a lot of other development both in terms of environment and terrain and things like resource processors, reactors, orbital shipyard components, etc. Maybe you just missed this stuff? 

I'd advise you to be realistic: Seeing models on terrain is literally nothing other than models on a terrain, the same goes for models of reactors and other components. The only hands on gameplay we've seen is the couple seconds of footage inside the vab and then launching and staging, and nothing more. Anything further is either heavily implied "gameplay", or straight up asset renders, or some pretty flow diagrams and written up stuff, but that's not even the game part of gameplay.

29 minutes ago, Master39 said:

snip

Part of your comment is answered with what I wrote above. I'm trying to be grounded here and not assume stuff that hasn't been explicitly shown. If you see a building on a planet, you're going to relate it to colonies, sure, but you didn't see anything at work other than the model of a building sitting on a terrain, the only thing you can take for granted about the "colony system" is models on the ground the rest is mostly talk and not-game media from devblogs.

For the rest of your comment, the only pressure directly put on Valve outside memes was 2 fans outside their building holding a sign, which relates back to what I already said: They don't give a crap about what you or me or anyone else "demands", the community and "toxic gamers" have no power to force a studio to rush a game, and that myth should be put down next to the one about delays making good games. These "toxic gamers" made it so difficult to release stuff that Valve has released 3 or 4 games since (including one from their flagship IP), lots of hardware, their own linux based operating system, and so on.

Why you'd choose to pick valve and ignore the rest of the examples is probably because it looked like the easiest nitpick, but no, they've kept releasing games (except those on development hell lol), and ignoring fan "demands".

Edited by PDCWolf
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6 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

I'd advise you to be realistic: Seeing models on terrain is literally nothing other than models on a terrain, the same goes for models of reactors and other components. The only hands on gameplay we've seen is the couple seconds of footage inside the vab and then launching and staging, and nothing more. Anything further is either heavily implied "gameplay", or straight up asset renders, or some pretty flow diagrams and written up stuff, but that's not even the game part of gameplay.

Well as has been discussed in several other threads we saw almost nothing from Elden Ring or most other games when we were nearly a year from release. It doesn't mean anything, good or bad. The core gameplay from KSP1 is known, and the bits we're missing--colonies, multiplayer, and other nice things like mission planning and how UI will handle interstellar encounters and long-duration burns are in all likelihood still being developed. If the game is coming out next Jan-March we'll probably see demonstrations of most of that late fall/early winter. From what I've seen Im pretty optimistic. It's perfectly okay if you wish to see a negative result as a default assumption, but there's no evidence to support that either. 

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You know, I keep being reminded by a quote from one of the devs when they were visiting an aerospace museum, and looking at one of the apollo capsules. When he saw all the intricacies and specifics parts that were needed for the capsule door alone, it made him stand back and say "You know, we have a really big undertaking on our hands for what we want to do" or something like that, I'm paraphrasing. The others with him thought he was just talking about making their part models to the highest detail they can get, but really he was talking about all the little minute things that need to be working perfectly for this game to function. KSP2 is going to be such a bigger game than KSP1, so it only makes sense that this amount of time is needed to work on it.

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30 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Well as has been discussed in several other threads we saw almost nothing from Elden Ring or most other games when we were nearly a year from release. It doesn't mean anything, good or bad. The core gameplay from KSP1 is known, and the bits we're missing--colonies, multiplayer, and other nice things like mission planning and how UI will handle interstellar encounters and long-duration burns are in all likelihood still being developed. If the game is coming out next Jan-March we'll probably see demonstrations of most of that late fall/early winter. From what I've seen Im pretty optimistic. It's perfectly okay if you wish to see a negative result as a default assumption, but there's no evidence to support that either. 

This just circles back to my initial statements: If they needed 3 extra years, why set a 2020 release on 2019? If all of that is still under development, what were they going to release back then? if all of that is new, why hasn't the scope moved from the 2019 PAX statements? Only transparency solves these questions. And again, right now the only saving grace is that they haven't enabled preorders in the past 3 years, which still opens up the question of them doing that because they knew they needed 3 years instead of 5 months to release.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

This just circles back to my initial statements: If they needed 3 extra years, why set a 2020 release on 2019?

Given all the mess that happened with Star Theory we'll probably never see a full explanation for obvious legal and professional reasons, but, just me guessing, I don't think it was ever actually possible to release a quality game with the advertised scope within that timeframe. To actually make the game we saw in the trailers was probably always going to take 4+ years start to finish. Maybe Star theory was never able to admit that. The truth is we'll never know. At this stage, seeing the care and thought they've put into little details like radiators and plumes and tessellation and realistic scatter and a dozen other things I have all the hope in the world the same level of thoughtfulness will be applied to resource collection and colonies. Thats just me though. Like I said pessimism is absolutely your right. 

Edited by Pthigrivi
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

I'm trying to be grounded here and not assume stuff that hasn't been explicitly shown.

"Everything I haven't directly seen doesn't exist at all" it's not being grounded, it's being just a funny way of being unreasonable and running the whole thread in circles.

 

Of these two:

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

They don't give a crap about what you or me or anyone else "demands",

3 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

On the other hand, we know full well what happens when you don't rush them, and that is you never ever get a product

Either pick one to stick with or argue with yourself.

"If you don't rush them they won't release anything, like Valve"

"They don't give a crap about the community and won't release anything, like Valve"

That's an infinite loop. Whatever reply anyone gives to you you just say the other one and start again.

 

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

Why you'd choose to pick valve and ignore the rest of the examples is probably because it looked like the easiest nitpick

I don't know any of them except of Star Citizen which is more an elaborate scam than a game (intentional or not has to be seen).

On the other hand you've beein cherry picking and ignoring arguments for quite some posts now.

Like the fact that the passage from Star Theory to Intercept, wasn't just "some studio reshuffle during COVID" but a major event alone justifying years of delays. But again, no point in arguing on that if your definition of "being grounded" includes ignoring data, eliminating deduction and only sticking to gameplay videos which they are purposefully being scarce on.

 

Honestly I'm a bit tired of running in circles, I'm closing this one here.

Edited by Master39
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half of the forum is like: Oh yay!!! I can't wait!

The other half is like: i have a metaphorical bomb strapped to my chest that will go off if another delay happens.

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3 minutes ago, Bamsplatter808 said:

I am starting to feel like the is turning into the biggest gaming failure since ET.

If they kept their original release window of 2020 with their current scope you certainly could have been right lol. 

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Take your time guys! Better to have a complete and polished game that took longer than expected than to have one that's rushed and buggy. At least I know I'll have time to finish up the mods on my plate. :)

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