Cryogenic Pods And Sonic Waves.....

[Spacescifi]

Since space is so utterly huge and torchship rockets are uber hard to create, I wonder if cryogenics could yet be perfected for manned spaceflight?

I have read that currently that if you freeze a human you cannot thaw them out and expect them to live because their cells well develop ice crystals which renders them... dead.

Animals who hibernate have natural antifreeze in their bodies that we do not, so their cells do not freeze over.

 

I was curious.... why not use sonic or ultrasonic technogies to vibrate the body to keep ice crystals from forming while using cryogenics to keep it at what would be freezing temperatures if not for the sonics?

 

May not even work but who knows?

 

 

[Gargamel]

2 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

 

I was curious.... why not use sonic or ultrasonic technogies to vibrate the body to keep ice crystals from forming while using cryogenics to keep it at what would be freezing temperatures if not for the sonics?

IIRC, and please somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but water molecules resonate at the microwave frequency, hence why microwave ovens heat things that contain water.   So you’re basically cooking a human on very low power.     Doesn’t make it wrong, just odd to think about.     Might need some fava beans and a nice Chianti ready for the person when they wake. 

[kerbiloid]

53 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

a nice Chianti ready for the person when they wake. 

Got it. To cure his stress.

54 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

microwave ovens heat things that contain water.

But if put a chicken into the wicrowave which is put into the fridge, it will be a Kryo Fried Chicken.

[Gargamel]

23 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

1 hour ago, Gargamel said:

 

But if put a chicken into the wicrowave which is put into the fridge, it will be a Kryo Fried Chicken

If we use a small songbird instead we can have Cryo Wren.  
 

Sorry sorry, back on topic.   
 

@Spacescifi, if you’re imagining using sound to move water, take a look at how much the water in your examples (that I imagine you’re thinking of)  is moving.   It’s a measurable distance.   Imagine every water molecule in your body moving 2 cm to the left and back.    Fairly quickly you’d be a pink goo.    A pink quivering goo, but goo none the less.   

Edited June 3, 2022 by Gargamel
Added ()

[KSK]

2 hours ago, Gargamel said:

IIRC, and please somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but water molecules resonate at the microwave frequency, hence why microwave ovens heat things that contain water.   So you’re basically cooking a human on very low power.     Doesn’t make it wrong, just odd to think about.     Might need some fava beans and a nice Chianti ready for the person when they wake. 

Correct about the microwave heating but ultrasound and microwave radiation can't really be compared. Different frequencies (by several orders of magnitude) and one is electromagnetic and the other isn't.  

Having said that, focused ultrasound has been approved for certain surgical applications where it's used to raise local tissue temperature. Soundwaves (I'm unsure about the frequency used) can also be used in lithotripsy to break up gallstones or kidney stones for easier removal.

On the gripping hand, ultrasound is commonly used in the lab to disrupt or lyse cells. Useful for isolating proteins or nucleic acids - lyse the cells, centrifuge to remove  membranes and other debris, extract what you want from the supernatant.

My concern with using ultrasound in cryogenics is that you'd want to interrupt ice crystal formation at an early stage before they become large ice crystals, at which point the damage is done.  However, I suspect (but do not know) that dispersing small ice crystals with ultrasound would simply lyse the very cells that you're trying to protect. My best guess is that it would be possible in principle (ultrasonication is used to homogenize mixtures after all, so homogenizing ice crystals doesn't seem like too much of a stretch) but difficult and dangerous in practice.

For space travel, some kind of induced hibernation might be a better bet, with or without induced hypothermia. Cooling the traveler down in other words, but not freezing them.

Edit:   One thought about any sort of microwaving or ultrasonication of tissues - low level, uniform, heating or ultrasonication is going to be difficult to achieve because the human body is decidedly non-uniform (spherical cow physics jokes notwithstanding  ). I'm thinking about the brain in particular which is encased in an inconvenient bony reflector and is probably one of the more essential organs to safely preserve.

Edited June 3, 2022 by KSK

[Gargamel]

4 minutes ago, KSK said:

gripping hand

Been a while since I’ve heard that reference.    

[jimmymcgoochie]

On the extremely unlikely chance that cryogenics can effectively freeze an entire human without anything important being destroyed (those pesky neuronal synapses being particularly tricky), the last thing you want to do is deliberately add vibrations into the mix. There's also the minor inconvenience of different tissues reflecting ultrasonic waves differently, hence their use in medical procedures e.g. during pregnancy or to look for internal bleeding, which would make ultrasonic-based anti-icing systems prohibitively complicated to execute.

A more likely solution is the use of chemical antifreezes to inhibit ice crystal formation, though those tend to be toxic enough that flooding your entire body with them wouldn't end well.

Perhaps cryo-freezing isn't the answer, but rather induced torpor using very low, but non-freezing, temperatures to drastically reduce metabolic activity; or else it's back to generation ships.

[Spacescifi]

7 hours ago, Gargamel said:

If we use a small songbird instead we can have Cryo Wren.  
 

Sorry sorry, back on topic.   
 

@Spacescifi, if you’re imagining using sound to move water, take a look at how much the water in your examples (that I imagine you’re thinking of)  is moving.   It’s a measurable distance.   Imagine every water molecule in your body moving 2 cm to the left and back.    Fairly quickly you’d be a pink goo.    A pink quivering goo, but goo none the less.   

 

Hmmm... apparently if a human was genetically modified to hibernate then they could.

https://interestingengineering.com/sci-fi-style-deep-space-hibernation-might-be-closer-than-we-thought

 

Sounds like engineered 'Spacers' would be the optimal version of manned spaceflight.

Trade offs no doubt, but humans clearly were never designed for space travel, so imagine how well a human genetically engineered for it to hibernate among other things would do.

 

[kerbiloid]

We can just use in-body nanites to break the growing crystals.

[magnemoe]

11 hours ago, KSK said:

Correct about the microwave heating but ultrasound and microwave radiation can't really be compared. Different frequencies (by several orders of magnitude) and one is electromagnetic and the other isn't.  

Having said that, focused ultrasound has been approved for certain surgical applications where it's used to raise local tissue temperature. Soundwaves (I'm unsure about the frequency used) can also be used in lithotripsy to break up gallstones or kidney stones for easier removal.

On the gripping hand, ultrasound is commonly used in the lab to disrupt or lyse cells. Useful for isolating proteins or nucleic acids - lyse the cells, centrifuge to remove  membranes and other debris, extract what you want from the supernatant.

For space travel, some kind of induced hibernation might be a better bet, with or without induced hypothermia. Cooling the traveler down in other words, but not freezing them.

Agree about hibernation, its solves most of the problems while being things mammals do. 

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, magnemoe said:

Agree about hibernation, its solves most of the problems while being things mammals do. 

 

Would the lack of gravity still play havoc on the human body or would hibernation retard that?

 

Instinctively I presume hibernation won't help much... bones will still atrophy as will muscle, and eyes will bulge against the sockets and the head will swell for lack of gravity.... right?

[KSK]

This thread puts me in mind of "Blue Remembered Earth" by Alastair Reynolds. It's set in a near future Solar System and interplanetary travel plays a reasonably large part in the story,  although mostly for getting the characters from place to place rather than going into great technical detail.

The gist of it is that ships are propelled by VASIMR thrusters and are generally described as mostly being propellant tanks and radiators.  VASIMR gives them good ISP but rather underwhelming thrust so journey times, whilst being better than we can do with current technology, are measured in weeks and months rather than days and weeks.  Hibernation is used to get around the journey times - as a passenger you're put into hibernation, loaded onto the ship, unloaded at your destination and revived. You'll wake up in hospital, feeling like hand-carved mulch, with temporary amnesia and reduced motor control, both of which come back after a couple of days. For longer journeys you're most likely going to be walking around with an exoskeleton assist for a week or two until (and probably getting medical treatment) until your muscle tone rebuilds.

The ships themselves are relatively flimsy. They're as light as possible and, much like current rockets, built to be strongest along the axis of thrust. Try and maneuver too hard in them and you'll end up snapping them in two, which doesn't tend to go well.

I quite liked this as a reasonably well thought out, consistent depiction of near-future spaceflight with (recalling another recent @Spacescifi )thread), well optimized ships, given the available technology, and which also did a decent job of showing that spaceflight was still hard by leaning into the medical after-effects of relatively long duration spaceflight, especially for regular folks.

Edited June 3, 2022 by KSK

[benzman]

Whatever method they try, I will not be rushing to volunteer as a guinea pig.

[KSK]

16 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

 

Would the lack of gravity still play havoc on the human body or would hibernation retard that?

Instinctively I presume hibernation won't help much... bones will still atrophy as will muscle, and eyes will bulge against the sockets and the head will swell for lack of gravity.... right?

Havoc is a bit strong in my opinion. Long duration spaceflight is a thing and, whilst it certainly doesn't sound pleasant to come back to Earth after an extended period in zero-g, astronauts are still quite capable of undergoing multiple gees on reentry - which suggests that they're still reasonably fit and healthy. Plus all the effects you mention are mostly reversible.  They certainly haven't prevented astronauts from doing multiple tours on the ISS - two appears to be pretty standard, three is quite common, and Yuri Malachenko has apparently served on five ISS crews.

But hibernation.

I doubt it'll mitigate any effects due to fluid displacement but it might actually help to prevent bone atrophy. One of the points of hibernation for space travel is to lower the astronaut's metabolic rate, thus reducing life-support requirements. Bone remodelling doesn't happen instantly and is an active process involving specific enzymes and whatnot (the technical description, you understand.  ). So if overall metabolism is lowered, it would make sense to me (which doesn't necessarily make it correct!) that bone remodelling is slowed down as well. 

On a purely speculative note, I wonder if a modified g-suit could be used on a hibernating astronaut to help move fluids around the body and stop them pooling as much.

Edited June 3, 2022 by KSK

[kerbiloid]

15 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Would the lack of gravity still play havoc on the human body or would hibernation retard that?

No. The cryonics will kill it sooner.

[Spacescifi]

38 minutes ago, KSK said:

Havoc is a bit strong in my opinion. Long duration spaceflight is a thing and, whilst it certainly doesn't sound pleasant to come back to Earth after an extended period in zero-g, astronauts are still quite capable of undergoing multiple gees on reentry - which suggests that they're still reasonably fit and healthy. Plus all the effects you mention are mostly reversible.  They certainly haven't prevented astronauts from doing multiple tours on the ISS - two appears to be pretty standard, three is quite common, and Yuri Malachenko has apparently served on five ISS crews.

But hibernation.

I doubt it'll mitigate any effects due to fluid displacement but it might actually help to prevent bone atrophy. One of the points of hibernation for space travel is to lower the astronaut's metabolic rate, thus reducing life-support requirements. Bone remodelling doesn't happen instantly and is an active process involving specific enzymes and whatnot (the technical description, you understand.  ). So if overall metabolism is lowered, it would make sense to me (which doesn't necessarily make it correct!) that bone remodelling is slowed down as well. 

On a purely speculative note, I wonder if a modified g-suit could be used on a hibernating astronaut to help move fluids around the body and stop them pooling as much.

 

Clever.... I do not like being skeptical as I am an eternal optimist when it comes to space travel technology.

 

Some issues with space travel are not reversible.... yet.

 

Vision is notably worse... due to the excess pressure put on the eyes because of the swollen head.

How a modified g-suit can or if it even could help that I do not know. I suspect that may cause other issues.

 

I think the real elephant in the room here is one word.... ulcers.

 

Bedsores are ulcers that happen on areas of the skin that are under pressure from lying in bed, sitting in a wheelchair, or wearing a cast for a prolonged time. Bedsores are also called pressure injuries, pressure sores, pressure ulcers, or decubitus ulcers. Bedsores can be a serious problem among frail older adults.

 

Adding a g-suit to this I suspect would only add to the ulcer problem, because g-suits merely add pressure to certain parts of the body to prevent pooling elsewhere... and putting pressure on the head to make blood pool in the feet and legs implies wearing some kind of pressure helmet. Darth Vader much lol?

This is longterm hibernation, so we are talking weeks and months of just lying still.

EDIT: Mammal animals solved this already.

Bed sores arise from continued pressure on an area of skin, causing restricted blood flow and leading to tissue damage due to lack of oxygen and nutrients. They are common in those confined to beds who are unable to move or reposition themselves, such as those with paralysis, long-term illness etc.

Healthy animals undergoing hibernation move regularly in their sleep which prevents these problems occurring. For example, this study of brown bears (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/331/6019/906.abstract) found that:

Animals changed position twice a day to once every 2 days, when they stood, occasionally groomed, and rearranged bedding material.

Smaller mammals enter deeper hibernation, but while they might not perform 'conscious acts' such as grooming or standing, they still move around in their sleep which prevents these injuries.

 

 

By comparison, gravity via rotation from a 100 meter long tether seems... far more achievable compared to space hibernation.

Another thing I notice that is irreversible is what I like to call hangy throat syndrome.

 

Look at any astronaut who has returned and spent several trips in space and I notice how their throats seem to stick out more.

Man or woman it's the same. Healthy earthers do not have this I notice.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Spacescifi

[KSK]

Hmmm.

The modified g-suit I had in mind would have more air bladders than normal and would be able to operate them in sequence to move fluids around. A bit like peristalsis. Would that be enough to avoid pressure sores (and you’re right - I could see those being a problem) especially if the suit wasn’t on all the time?

I have no idea. As I said, the g-suit idea was just speculation.

Edit. Without a g-suit or similar restraint, I wouldn’t have thought pressure sores would be a problem in zero-g.

As for the effects of zero-g on eyesight? Again, you’re probably right but again, the deterioration in vision clearly isn’t bad enough to stop astronauts going into space again.

I know we’re not in the 60s any more and that astronauts are no longer expected to be perfect physical specimens but I’d have thought you still need to be in pretty good shape to be strapped into a spaceship - and to have pretty good eyesight before you’re allowed to fly them.

Edited June 3, 2022 by KSK

[Spacescifi]

17 minutes ago, KSK said:

Hmmm.

The modified g-suit I had in mind would have more air bladders than normal and would be able to operate them in sequence to move fluids around. A bit like peristalsis. Would that be enough to avoid pressure sores (and you’re right - I could see those being a problem) especially if the suit wasn’t on all the time?

I have no idea. As I said, the g-suit idea was just speculation.

Edit. Without a g-suit or similar restraint, I wouldn’t have thought pressure sores would be a problem in zero-g.

As for the effects of zero-g on eyesight? Again, you’re probably right but again, the deterioration in vision clearly isn’t bad enough to stop astronauts going into space again.

I know we’re not in the 60s any more and that astronauts are no longer expected to be perfect physical specimens but I’d have thought you still need to be in pretty good shape to be strapped into a spaceship - and to have pretty good eyesight before you’re allowed to fly them.

 

Which is why I can accept scifi conceits like 1g gravity flooring on spaceships. It's pure scifi apologetics really... as much as I like real science if you stick to it it constrains the stories you can tell.

The alternative won't allow a large and well traveled manned presence in space anyway.

For that to occur survival in space must be much easier than it currently is.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

7 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

ulcers

 

7 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

EDIT: Mammal animals solved this already.

Calluses. 

Real spacemen will be adapted to the sitting in chairs under the overloads lasting for hours, so they will develop a baboon-like sitting part.

Actually, instead of obsolete "sea wolf" (what is the "wolf"? who remembers those extinct underdogs?), a true spaceship captain will be called "space baboon" for his long arms and habit of jumping from branch to branch deck to deck in zero/low-g, and for his big red sitting insignia clearly distinguishing him from weedy rookies.
Also for friendly temper and soft skills.

Edited June 4, 2022 by kerbiloid