Should celestial bodies in KSP 2 have axial tilts?

[The Aziz]

33 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

Atmospheric tilt literally has no effect on getting to LKO from the surface of Kerbin.

But it has effect on return. Typical new player will probably launch east. With no tilt even slightly off equatorial orbit will assure simple retrograde deorbit burn and landing relatively close to KSC if timed correctly. Why am I saying that? Because it appears there will be a lot emphasis on pinpoint landings later on so if you're going to build an early base on the Mun, you better start learning quickly. (And if you're playing career in KSP1 you know it's important for your finances)

There's only one opportunity per Kerbin day to do the same if the planet is tilted, assuming the trajectory directly above KSC, which may not happen since LKO has a period of like 30 minutes. Pretty sure no early player would want to wait that long, especially when they're still learning how to fly and want to send as many new, improved rockets as possible. Everything else requires adding inclination changes to the mix.

[Vanamonde]

Some posts removed. Please talk about the subject of the thread rather than each other. 

[Bej Kerman]

On 7/25/2022 at 12:42 PM, KerikBalm said:

On 7/10/2022 at 9:11 PM, Bej Kerman said:

I just don't think us vets should be speaking for new players when we've forgotten what it's like to be new.

That's like saying that we shouldn't say that making the atmosphere of Duna thinner won't affect new players getting to low kerbin orbit.

A better analogy would be "we shouldn't say that tilting Kerbin won't confuse new players (starting on Kerbin) that have never seen a Porkchop plot". Kerbin is the start of every player's journey, and tilt could be disorienting.

[SciMan]

This seems to be one of those things that we can only hope to get a definitive answer on by letting a group of people who have literally never played KSP before try to play a build of KSP 2 with axial tilt and see how fast they progress or what complaints they might have about things being hard to figure out, and then for the "control" group, a separate group of KSP veterans that understand axial tilt and orbital mechanics quite well, and see how fast they progress or what complaints they might have.

You can't figure this one out with just one test group. You need "new players" to judge the quality of the "new player experience", because there's too many things that anyone who has played KSP for long enough will think are so obvious that they don't bear mentioning, and yet will be entirely confounding sources of confusion for a truly new player.

Yes, KSP 2 is basically developed for fans of KSP 1, but it shouldn't be that way to the point that it excludes people with no knowledge of orbital mechanics.

I really hope to see axial tilt in the game in the Kerbol system, but Kerbin and the Mun probably shouldn't have it.
Everything beyond that is up for grabs tho, and usually aligning the plane of the planet's rotation with the plane of its orbit is the thing that will make the most sense from a "what happens in real life" standpoint, and introduce the least confusion to players both new and returning from KSP 1.

[pandaman]

Personally I don't think axial tilt will prove as big a problem as some may think.  Especially if it is not extreme within the majority of the Kerbol system.

If it is there it will just be 'the way it is', and effectively no different to how inclined orbits are already 'how it it is'.  Players will just learn to deal with it because it's there and they have to.

[t_v]

19 minutes ago, pandaman said:

If it is there it will just be 'the way it is', and effectively no different to how inclined orbits are already 'how it it is'.  Players will just learn to deal with it because it's there and they have to.

That's the gist of it - but the first body you visit, the Mun, is not inclined. New players don't deal with inclination right away, because it isn't there and they don't have to. That way, they can focus on raising their apoapsis and getting an encounter. Later, when inclination is there and they have to deal with it, they already know how to get an encounter with a celestial body. Similar to inclination, I want axial tilt to be introduced later (still within the Kerbol system, maybe at Minmus) and to be minimal, no immediate 30-degree tilts at Kerbin or Duna, leave that for Tylo or something. 

[SickSix]

Man, I struggle enough as it is. I can't imagine trying to plan landings with wobbly planets. 

How about there are only tilted planets in other systems? Leave Kerbol system as is.

[pandaman]

On 8/3/2022 at 4:32 PM, SickSix said:

Man, I struggle enough as it is. I can't imagine trying to plan landings with wobbly planets. 

How about there are only tilted planets in other systems? Leave Kerbol system as is.

I really don't think it will be as much of a problem as you fear.

When you arrive at another planet, or maybe even the Mun for that matter, can you guarantee achieving a near zero inclination capture without making any adjustments en-route?  In practical terms it's not much different.   

An equatorial orbit ony really helps if you want to land near the equator anyway.    I often want a polar (90 degree inclination) orbit and need to tweak my approach to get close to that and avoid Dv costly maneuvers anyhow.

[KerikBalm]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:36 PM, Bej Kerman said:

A better analogy would be "we shouldn't say that tilting Kerbin won't confuse new players (starting on Kerbin) that have never seen a Porkchop plot". Kerbin is the start of every player's journey, and tilt could be disorienting.

 

On 7/25/2022 at 2:34 PM, The Aziz said:

But it has effect on return. Typical new player will probably launch east. With no tilt even slightly off equatorial orbit will assure simple retrograde deorbit burn and landing relatively close to KSC if timed correctly. 

[...]

There's only one opportunity per Kerbin day to do the same if the planet is tilted, assuming the trajectory directly above KSC

This is not true, equatorial orbit is always aligned with the planet's rotation, the display of east should be relative to the planet's axis.

A tilted axis relative to the ecliptic shouldn't display as tilted unless the player changes the camera view.

[Pthigrivi]

Yo what about planets that spin backwards like Venus does?

[pandaman]

12 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Yo what about planets that spin backwards like Venus does?

But are they 'backwards' or 'upside-down'?

Such planets or moons may be 'out of sync' with their parent bodies.  But, unless my understanding is wrong, 'East' is spinwards, (towards the rising sun) and North will always be to one's left as you face that direction.