Colony progression

[Kapitalizing Every Word]

So I started thinking about the tech tree and colony parts and i've come to the realization that a sistem purely based on science points would be a little bit boring, why? because colonies will probably generate more science than landing missions and exploration so once you know colony mechanics it would be easy just to throw colonies and let them generate science passively than actively exploring planets.
My idea?
A different (small) tech tree for each celestial body exclusively for colonies and it works like this:
You visit a planet (let's say duna) and collect science and planet data if you get for example 3 athmosphere readings in different altitudes you'll unlock pressurized habitation modules and if you do seismic readings and ground temperatur scans you could be on your way to geothermal energy generators the idea of this system is for you to be able to progress more explicitly than just going somewhere and collecting points beacause why would looking at the mun rocks of 10 different biomes allow you to make an advanced habitation module that works ona planet you've never been to before.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk

[jastrone]

i dont think colonies will generate science at all. they are meant to construct and launch rockets from and probably something more but not science. the colonies upgrades would come from materials and not science so colonies get easier to upgrade the better technology you have not because you unlock new colony parts but because you can bring more materials from kerbin to the colony with better rocket tech.  andif colonies would make science points then you can just make a colony on kerbin that makes a lot of science. therefore i think colonies should nether require or make science/tech. they should be left outside the science aspect of the game

 

[shdwlrd]

Colony progression really hasn't been talked about by the devs. They just gave us a basic picture into what they like to see.

I can see bases and colonies progression being tied to, but separate, from the rocket parts. In the lower tech tiers, both base and rocket parts could be closely related. At later tiers, the colony and rocket parts will have diverged enough where only the base technology is the only thing in common. (Ex. Fusion reactors) 

As for that actual progression mechanics, we don't know. It's been repeated over and over again that the science and career modes from KSP1 are being scrapped completely. The progression mechanics for KSP2 will be different.

So let colonies have labs and do research. Let colonies find and contribute to discoveries. So let colonies be apart of the whole science and discovery part of the game as how you expect it to be in RL. Why? Because we don't know the plan for progression of technology for KSP2.

[Pthigrivi]

I would like to see science labs serve some purpose within the game, but if they can generate it on their own players could just set up a small orbital lab and leave the game to timewarp overnight and break the tech tree. I think shdwlrd is right we don't really know anything about how this stuff will work, but if we're just imagining I'd like to see science broken into 3 parts: raw Data, Samples, and usable Science that could be spent to research new tech. Raw data would come from various experiments and could be transmitted either to Kerbin or to science labs in the field. Samples would need to be physically returned to Kerbin or to science labs to be processed into usable Science, but they'd also be worth a lot more. To keep things simple I'd dump all incoming Data into one big pool and it would take time to process that data into Science. You'd have a starting rate at KSC which could be upgraded a couple of times, but to keep expanding your processing rate through the middle and late game you'd need to build and upgrade science labs off-world. The more and bigger labs you had the faster you could turn increasing volumes of new raw data into new tech. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[shdwlrd]

1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

I would like to see science labs serve some purpose within the game, but if they can generate it on their own players could just set up a small orbital lab and leave the game to timewarp overnight and break the tech tree.

This is the trap everyone is falling into. Thinking that progression is going to be solely based on points gathered, and not earned. That is an old mechanic that can be easily exploited. It works in mission based games where upgrades are given over the course of the story. It doesn't work in sandbox like games. Discovery and doing tasks along with gathering works better in sandbox type games.

In table top RPG's, you earn points by doing things, not just attending the session. The more you do, the faster you level. So translating to KSP, you can't unlock bases until you land your first crewed lander. You can't build an ISRU until you dig up resources. You can't build new base modules in-situ until you land manufacturing modules. You can't build new modules until you have the resources available to do so. You can't get the next level improvement until you have used the predecessor for a time. So on, so on.

[Pthigrivi]

2 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

This is the trap everyone is falling into. Thinking that progression is going to be solely based on points gathered, and not earned. That is an old mechanic that can be easily exploited. It works in mission based games where upgrades are given over the course of the story. It doesn't work in sandbox like games. Discovery and doing tasks along with gathering works better in sandbox type games.

In table top RPG's, you earn points by doing things, not just attending the session. The more you do, the faster you level. So translating to KSP, you can't unlock bases until you land your first crewed lander. You can't build an ISRU until you dig up resources. You can't build new base modules in-situ until you land manufacturing modules. You can't build new modules until you have the resources available to do so. You can't get the next level improvement until you have used the predecessor for a time. So on, so on.

I suspect there will still be points of some kind, though I agree we have no idea how they will be earned. I still don’t think you can tie specific parts to specific tasks because it makes the game too prescriptive. Its fine to say you get the ramjet after you’d flown to some atmospheric level, but what about all those structural parts? Do I have to land a probe on Minmus’s poles to get an octagonal strut? What if I’d rather put a satellite around the Mun or send a probe to Duna? It would turn the game into a laundry list of specific tasks every player had to do mostly in order to gather up all the parts you need rather than doing the kinds of missions you want to do and having the flexibility to develop your tech based on your own priorities. Maybe they could be grouped into aeronautic science, transmission science, probe science... but, I could just as easily keep it as simple as possible.
 

I do think you could have a hybrid approach with several of those important big milestones giving science rewards directly. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[Ember12]

This idea would definitely need some ironing out, but: maybe you could have "monitors", little parts that you put on your spacecraft that provide structural information when your spacecraft does something new and structure-involving, like landing on some world or docking.  You could have different types of monitors for developing other solid parts like thermal tech.

[shdwlrd]

43 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I suspect there will still be points of some kind, though I agree we have no idea how they will be earned.

Yes, agreed. We need more info for any devs looking at this.  Please.

47 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I still don’t think you can tie specific parts to specific tasks because it makes the game too prescriptive

With parts for crafts, it may or may not work. But for colony and base buildings, it can work. Some stuff just makes sense. Unlocking base parts after landing on the Mun or Minmus for example. Not getting the ISRU until you are gathering resources. Not building in-situ expansions until you have a module that allows it. Not building a certain tech until you have unlocked it.

1 hour ago, Ember12 said:

This idea would definitely need some ironing out,

Oh, definitely. It's workable, but will it have some flaws, probably. Will everyone be happy with it, oh definitely not.

[Rutabaga22]

         I'm thinking a tiled build system. A VAB style menu on the side with all the different parts, overlays for resource transfer and  life support (If required).  Maybe even a system to select the layout for your colony and then it auto builds what you want for a colony as you get resources. So, basically you "Design" your colony, let it build as resources are gathered, and then you can expand it as you go. Demolition would be a cool feature that could allow for additions to your colony as you expand. For example, you build a low tech mun colony, but as you get better parts for it, you can demolish and rebuild a building with higher tech.

 

           As for colony tech progression I think that you start with building ksp 1 style surface bases but with dedicated parts, you then move to pathfinder style inflatable habs, then you can make small structures, launch pads, and construction tents (Starbase style), after that you go to large scale colony stuff, to full on self sustaining colonies.

[darthgently]

13 hours ago, Kapitalizing Every Word said:

So I started thinking about the tech tree and colony parts and i've come to the realization that a sistem purely based on science points would be a little bit boring, why? because colonies will probably generate more science than landing missions and exploration so once you know colony mechanics it would be easy just to throw colonies and let them generate science passively than actively exploring planets.
My idea?
A different (small) tech tree for each celestial body exclusively for colonies and it works like this:
You visit a planet (let's say duna) and collect science and planet data if you get for example 3 athmosphere readings in different altitudes you'll unlock pressurized habitation modules and if you do seismic readings and ground temperatur scans you could be on your way to geothermal energy generators the idea of this system is for you to be able to progress more explicitly than just going somewhere and collecting points beacause why would looking at the mun rocks of 10 different biomes allow you to make an advanced habitation module that works ona planet you've never been to before.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk

I've often thought that the tech tree should be much more related to actual activity and challenges. I like the seismic exploration unlocking geothermal; perfect example