SETI-related discussion, split from another thread.

[mikegarrison]

18 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Lots and lots of lucky coincidences.

That's the short version of the "Rare Earth" hypothesis, which seeks to explain the Fermi paradox / Drake equation by simply saying that life is super, super rare.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

4 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

That's the short version of the "Rare Earth" hypothesis, which seeks to explain the Fermi paradox / Drake equation by simply saying that life is super, super rare.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis

Yup. 

I've always found the underlying assumptions to be interesting in that. 

We've a major 'detector' problem, from what I can see.  First off; most of the SETI search has been via radio telescopes, so the bias has been toward 'transmitting' (intelligent) life.  I think it highly likely that with better detectors (Webb, maybe?) that we can see 'signs of life' (read: oxygen???) in atmospheres that could indicate nothing more complex than a ton of lichens and slime molds... but still, LIFE!!!!

When you limit yourself to the search for other intelligences - we'd either be taking a glance into their past (radio signals from 2MASS 19281982-2640123 ('wow' signal)) which is 1,800 ly away or still waiting for them to reach us given the distance.

My 'gut' instinct is that 'life' isn't that precious (we'll find it all over the place (panspermia)) - but intelligent life is likely to be fairly uncommon.

Again though; with so many places to look, it's likely out there.

12 minutes ago, tater said:

anaglyph 

 

=

Quote

 a ... still picture in which the right component of a composite image usually red in color is superposed on the left component in a contrasting color to produce a three-dimensional effect when viewed through correspondingly colored filters in the form of spectacles

Quote

 

 "The whole thing is assembled like a mosaic, and each tile is made up of thousands of photos."

McCarthy said he specializes in detailed photographs, taking tens of thousands of photos to capture the geographical features on the moon's surface. Matherne, who prefers to shoot deep space photos, specializes in colors.

 

Over the course of a single evening, McCarthy shot over 200,000 detailed photos of the moon from Arizona, while Matherne shot another 500 images from Louisiana to capture color data. They combined their work by stacking the photos on top of one another to create a detailed image of the moon in spectacular color.

"Andrew aimed purely for the detail side whereas I aimed purely for the color side," Matherne said. "That allowed us to get the full moon."

 

Likely to be similar processes.  I think its cool to see the concentration of Titanium contrasting with the literal Rust red.

[SunlitZelkova]

Expecting every single intelligent species to build radios is just as bad as expecting every single intelligent species to be humanoid in form (little green men).

[tater]

2 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Expecting every single intelligent species to build radios is just as bad as expecting every single intelligent species to be humanoid in form (little green men).

Light is light, and radio has advantages. Any spacefairing species will have looked at all the wavelengths by the time they are off their planet. It's not like humans only build telescopes in wavelengths WE see, after all.

[magnemoe]

The moon is nice as other say its probably important and it has never hurt me.  People living in areas with high tides might not like it as much

10 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Expecting every single intelligent species to build radios is just as bad as expecting every single intelligent species to be humanoid in form (little green men).

Expect all who develop technology will develop radio as its useful. However its doubtful they send signals so strong we can detect them. 
We transmit less strong signals than we did 30 years ago going away with broadcast TV from antennas and shift to cell based infrastructure. 

[SunlitZelkova]

18 hours ago, tater said:

Light is light, and radio has advantages. Any spacefairing species will have looked at all the wavelengths by the time they are off their planet. It's not like humans only build telescopes in wavelengths WE see, after all.

10 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Expect all who develop technology will develop radio as its useful. However its doubtful they send signals so strong we can detect them. 
We transmit less strong signals than we did 30 years ago going away with broadcast TV from antennas and shift to cell based infrastructure. 

It isn’t the choice of radio that I see as unlikely, it is the notion that extraterrestrials somehow are completely physiologically different from us yet still building radios/radio devices.

I am unaware of any other means of building one without human-like hands, nor any other means of generating a radio transmission without a human-like radio.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to be a “haha, gotcha, mainstream science!” troll. I generally do not understand the logic used in SETI.

[NFUN]

40 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

It isn’t the choice of radio that I see as unlikely, it is the notion that extraterrestrials somehow are completely physiologically different from us yet still building radios/radio devices.

I am unaware of any other means of building one without human-like hands, nor any other means of generating a radio transmission without a human-like radio.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to be a “haha, gotcha, mainstream science!” troll. I generally do not understand the logic used in SETI.

if an alien's appendages aren't capable of building a radio then they aren't capable of using or making electricity, rockets, or anything else that would qualify them as technologically advanced. The assumption isn't that every intelligent species will have them, it's that every technological species will... actually, no, it isn't. There's actually no assumption or logic of any sort beyond "this is a thing they might do and it is a thing it is feasible for us to check with the telescopes we have, unlike any basically any other test". Nobody is making arguments that are taken seriously that if we don't find radio signals with SETI (or even more generally, if alien life isn't generative radio signals) then there is no alien life out there

[tater]

1 hour ago, SunlitZelkova said:

It isn’t the choice of radio that I see as unlikely, it is the notion that extraterrestrials somehow are completely physiologically different from us yet still building radios/radio devices.

I am unaware of any other means of building one without human-like hands, nor any other means of generating a radio transmission without a human-like radio.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to be a “haha, gotcha, mainstream science!” troll. I generally do not understand the logic used in SETI.

@NFUN basically beat me to it.

I don't see physiology as playing any role whatsoever. If it is possible to become highly intelligent without developing technology... then those species are lost to the universe unless someone stumbles on them in person.

SETI obviously requires a technological species. Radio because it is an obvious choice for communications over extremely long distances.

[kerbiloid]

A species having no sitcom broadcasting can't be considered sapient.

[magnemoe]

6 hours ago, tater said:

@NFUN basically beat me to it.

I don't see physiology as playing any role whatsoever. If it is possible to become highly intelligent without developing technology... then those species are lost to the universe unless someone stumbles on them in person.

SETI obviously requires a technological species. Radio because it is an obvious choice for communications over extremely long distances.

Who is true, or you can be intelligent, have hands but not invented radio or for that sake metals jet. 
That I see as the main problem with SETI is assuming that advanced civilizations uses lots of high power radio transmitters. 
Its something we are moving away from as it wastes bandwidth. For deep space communication we are planning to use lasers. 

[Bej Kerman]

On 8/24/2022 at 4:27 AM, tater said:

On 8/24/2022 at 2:16 AM, SunlitZelkova said:

Expecting every single intelligent species to build radios is just as bad as expecting every single intelligent species to be humanoid in form (little green men).

Light is light, and radio has advantages. Any spacefairing species will have looked at all the wavelengths by the time they are off their planet. It's not like humans only build telescopes in wavelengths WE see, after all.

Then again, we only used the telegraph for less than a century. Any intelligent life on Earth  still using telegraphs won't be able to find us until they catch up to us. You can't say we won't figure out how to use ripples in spacetime itself as a medium for communication, and if life out there already does then we're the metaphorical telegraph people.

[kerbiloid]

5 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Who is true, or you can be intelligent, have hands but not invented radio or for that sake metals jet. 

Without metals, your abilities to cut, pierce, and shape materials are close to none.

Thus everyone has to withstand external conditions personally, and the sapient civilisation will consist of tribes of highly spiritual philosophers eating each other.

Wait... Isn't any philosophers' community this?.. At least in the part of eating.

Edited August 25, 2022 by kerbiloid

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

Wait... Isn't any philosophers' community this?.

I believe you are describing 'Tenured Faculty' 

[Vanamonde]

Since this part of the conversation had nothing to do with the moon any longer, it has been moved from another thread. 

[Bej Kerman]

14 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Without metals, your abilities to cut, pierce, and shape materials are close to none.

As far as humans know.

[kerbiloid]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

As far as humans know.

Strength of materials.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

As far as humans know.

Kal El hasn't revealed himself, yet.

[magnemoe]

12 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Then again, we only used the telegraph for less than a century. Any intelligent life on Earth  still using telegraphs won't be able to find us until they catch up to us. You can't say we won't figure out how to use ripples in spacetime itself as a medium for communication, and if life out there already does then we're the metaphorical telegraph people.

Unless we discover some way to communicate or travel faster than light I assume lasers will become standard for high bandwidth or long range communication in space including interstellar for general use. You might get some more exotic ways because of stealth or security. Else they has no benefits over laser or radio, radio is for general use, most will be cell divided outside of emergency frequencies,
Radio bandwidth is an limited resource after all. 
Solution is to limit your the signal strength. Or why radio SETI will not work, yes it makes sense 50 years ago with all the broadcast TV signals but we moved on. 

[Pixophir]

22 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Without metals, your abilities to cut, pierce, and shape materials are close to none.

There were and are extensive technologies to chip or grind varieties of stone and bone into shape and combine them in composite tools with wood and tar to produce all kind of tools for all kinds of work you mention, and many more like scrapers, awls, various tools for engraving, chisels, hammer, adzes, hatchets, sickles, needles, knives, arrows, harpoons, javelins, and the list is much longer, in various shapes and forms to serve specific purposes through time and space. Even to do it in a reproducible manner, as to exchange and repair parts of tools when they break.

Varieties of those raw materials trace back to deposits of a prior evolution. Nevertheless I see no reason not to assume and hypothesize that other folks with the ability to manipulate things develop a similar technology, if they have access to similar raw materials. But that's mostly guesswork, and leaves my field of expertise.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Pixophir

[kerbiloid]

5 hours ago, Pixophir said:

There were and are extensive technologies to chip or grind varieties of stone and bone into shape and combine them in composite tools with wood and tar to produce all kind of tools for all kinds of work you mention, and many more like scrapers, awls, various tools for engraving, chisels, hammer, adzes, hatchets, sickles, needles, knives, arrows, harpoons, javelins, and the list is much longer, in various shapes and forms to serve specific purposes through time and space. Even to do it in a reproducible manner, as to exchange and repair parts of tools when they break.

Until somebody comes by horse with a metal musket, or an Ice Age begins.

[Shpaget]

On 8/25/2022 at 1:40 AM, tater said:

Radio because it is an obvious choice for communications over extremely long distances.

What if it's an obvously poor choice? That is, from a standpoint of a civilistion that uses some trivial FTL method of communication which we haven't stumbled upon?

[tater]

7 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

What if it's an obvously poor choice? That is, from a standpoint of a civilistion that uses some trivial FTL method of communication which we haven't stumbled upon?

What is the point of trying to communicate with other species around other stars?

Serious question.

Are you looking for any civilization, or are you looking for FTL-capable, spacefaring civilizations?

Assuming there was such a mode of communication, then definitionally any such attempt with it would be seeking only the latter subset. That's fine if that's the goal. Any such civilization would have to know that less capable civs would have to use "not-FTL" and would adjust their efforts accordingly if they are interested in the broader subset of civs.

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

So perhaps some benevolent Prime Directive is being applied to us? 

[Shpaget]

1 hour ago, tater said:

What is the point of trying to communicate with other species around other stars?

Betterment of everybody involved, I would hope.

[tater]

19 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Betterment of everybody involved, I would hope.

Are they only looking for other species with identical tech to their own, or are they trying to reach the maximum number?

 

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

So perhaps some benevolent Prime Directive is being applied to us? 

I always hated The Prime Directive even in Star Trek, though at least there the galaxy is densely packed with intelligent life. In such a close-packing of  potentially space-faring civilizations it could at least be argued. Personally I don't think such life is very common. In the ST setting, where interstellar travel is trivial (at least in terms of the time required) the prime directive seems suicidal. You'd want to identify cultures that shared your own ideas about pluralism, etc, and uplift them, and find possibly genocidal cultures and prevent them from ever becoming a galactic threat.