Does KSP2 need Kerbal classes and experience?

[Pthigrivi]

This is one of those questions thats been rattling around for me the last year or so. I think the pilot, scientist, and engineer classes were brought into KSP1 mainly to encourage players to bring more than one Kerbal on journeys, which was a good idea, but in the end you could usually replace a pilot with a probe core, so you really only ever needed 2 kerbals. In a game like KSP2 with colonies and stations that might have hundreds of kerbals does this paradigm really make sense anymore? You could of course give kerbal classes more things to do or create new classes but I worry in the end you're just adding busywork thats not essential to core gameplay. I find particularly on long playthroughs with 50 or 100 kerbals to manage it becomes incredibly time-consuming to fiddle with moving individual kerbals between shuttles, stations, and bases. I'd LOVE to have an interface that allows me to move groups at a time. What if there was a different kind of incentive that encouraged players to bring 5 or 10 kerbals on long exploration journeys? Not just adding a dozen different classes, and nothing punitive like "oh you don't have a doctor so one of your kerbals died", but something simple and intuitive that doesn't require a bunch of finicky staff management. It could be as simple as a modifier that keeps kerbals happy on long journeys if there were more of them, that way you could could get rid of classes entirely, or just have two: "Colonists" and "Kerbalnauts". 

Another thing I find grinds down long playthroughs is the current XP system. In many ways it's worse than classes because you have to constantly keep track of where they've been and individually tour them around on dozens of repetitive missions to level them up. Again, if there was a more collective way in which EVA abilities, science payouts, resource mining efficiency etc. were leveled up for all kerbals rather than needing to manage their careers individually it would open up a lot more time to focus on design and exploration. 

[The Aziz]

The three classes are perfectly fine. Scientists work on whatever discoveries you make and do research. Engineers control construction, extraction, deconstruction if needed and possibly repairs. Pilots fly automated - not necesseraily unmanned - missions like it was planned, operate rovers sent on excursions.

Aaalso. Promo picture shows three Kerbals in three roles, guess that makes it pretty obvious.

[Pthigrivi]

8 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

The three classes are perfectly fine. Scientists work on whatever discoveries you make and do research. Engineers control construction, extraction, deconstruction if needed and possibly repairs. Pilots fly automated - not necesseraily unmanned - missions like it was planned, operate rovers sent on excursions.

With a new game though there's an opportunity to rethink this strategy. Would there really be anything lost if all kerbals could work in labs, extract resources, or fly vessels? Other than the time it takes to manually assign dozens of them to individual tasks? Wouldn't it be easier to just plonk 6 or 8 of them in a ship and not have to worry about crew compliments? 

[regex]

I agree with you on the experience thing, I recall some forum users creating giant kerbal space buses to take a gaggle of them on an extended tour before using them, which is ... expedient, but the idea of it is kind of ridiculous.

Maybe a better way of handling that would be milestones related to their career. Scientists get experience by performing experiments, engineers get experience doing whatever the hell they do (what do they do?), pilots get experience from flight time.

[Domonian]

If they decided to go with the original system, they need to add more passive ways of leveling Kerbals. On-ground training the Kerbals can do when they're not on missions (levels up to 1-2 stars, maybe?), training through automated atmospheric missions once they reach that point (up to 3-4 stars), then beyond that they can do automated interplanetary missions or whatever is planned for that. There's a lot they can do with other systems currently planned. Since we'll likely be dealing with hundreds, if not thousands of Kerbals scattered across the galaxy, there has to be a way to train Kerbals without manually putting them on the space-bus to everywhere. 

[t_v]

For the first part of incentives to have multiple kerbals, I think it can be both. Having more kerbals helps keep them happy, and having the different classes helps the different operations go smoothly. As for kerbals being able to complete the same tasks, I have a few ideas. First, I’m hoping that KSP 2 has more activities that distinguish the classes so there can be more overlap. Sure, a pilot can transfer a surface sample and rivet a tank onto a girder, but can they properly operate a spectrogram and rewrite an antenna? This makes basic missions less class-dependent while introducing another design element to more specialized missions: if your craft only has two seats, will you give up repairing the advanced parts so that you can plan a baristochrone trajectory properly?

Second, have kerbals be able to fill multiple classes. This doesn’t merit its own thread but I’m happy to put it in this one. The idea is that as a kerbal pilots, repairs, or does more advanced science, they gain experience in that class. Ideally this would involve raising the maximum class level, allowing very, very  experienced kerbals to be five stars in all three classes, or super-experienced in one class. This allows for even more specialized tasks to be created, giving a sense of accomplishment when you get a full crew of 7-star scientists to staff the first dark matter chemistry lab. 
 

However, this second solution really requires  a way to train kerbals in bulk before they go out on missions so that they aren’t incapable on their first mission in the far future. Having colony modules capable of training kerbals over time would be a good solution to this. The maximum level that can be trained before the kerbals go out would increase as the player progresses, and you can set up a system where you specify a percentage of the colony population and how many levels you would like in each class (up to the maximum) and they will begin training. That way, you can start with a Pilot 5/ Scientist 1 kerbal, ready to gain valuable experience through real missions. 
 

This is definitely not going to be in the game, just another thing that I hope I can make happen through modding. 

[Kerbart]

I would say use the old system but with a twist; add universities. Kerbals can enroll in a university either as student or as trainer (penalties may apply) and transfer knowledge that way. You still have to advance Jeb (or whoever) to three, four and five stars but after that you can quickly upgrade all Kerbals on the same planet. Then ship one of them off to Duna and repeat the process there on the Duna colony (unless they've split off to become the Dunian Congressional Republic of course), etc.

[The Aziz]

1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

manually assign

IIRC one of the main points regarding the existence of colonies but keeping it as side aspect of the game, was to reduce micromanagement. Choosing manually your default crew for a ship is a no-brainer, however any tasks that happen at colonies should be crewed automatically. I mean, why would you even want to assign a scientist for a habitat construction? That said I don't think any sort of "vacant seats" is going to be a thing - the population will simply increase capabilities of the colony without the need to assign Kerbals to specific tasks.

[Pthigrivi]

5 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

IIRC one of the main points regarding the existence of colonies but keeping it as side aspect of the game, was to reduce micromanagement. Choosing manually your default crew for a ship is a no-brainer, however any tasks that happen at colonies should be crewed automatically. I mean, why would you even want to assign a scientist for a habitat construction? That said I don't think any sort of "vacant seats" is going to be a thing - the population will simply increase capabilities of the colony without the need to assign Kerbals to specific tasks.

Im talking both for colonies and for vessels, be they mining rigs, exploration vessels, tankers, whatever. I'm asking this in the spirit of "the best part is no part"--if the assignments are automatic then why have separate classes, and if for vessels all its adding is manually assigning tasks then why have separate classes. In either case it seems like an easily dispensable bit of management fuss that distracts from core gameplay. We're used to it on a small level, but the more vessels you have buzzing around the more time you're spending keeping track of how many of each class you need to send from here to there. Like I said even in KSP1 saves with 50 or 60 kerbals I have notebooks full of crew compliment schedules. Over time it becomes one of the biggest sources of grind in the game. It doesn't do the one thing its supposed to do: encourage larger crews. It doesn't change the way you design or fly your vessels. It just means more time clicking around vessels and the Astronaut complex. So, can't we just get rid of it? 

[Strawberry]

I think these classes have to remain in some form at least. Considering that colonies appear to hold hundreds of kerbals, there will need to be an application for these kerbals, and having some kerbals be engineers, some be scientists, and some be pilots will offer good reason to get lots of kerbals.

[darthgently]

6 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

With a new game though there's an opportunity to rethink this strategy. Would there really be anything lost if all kerbals could work in labs, extract resources, or fly vessels? Other than the time it takes to manually assign dozens of them to individual tasks? Wouldn't it be easier to just plonk 6 or 8 of them in a ship and not have to worry about crew compliments? 

I have often thought that any Kerbal should be able to take on any role getting more efficient at it the longer they occupy it.  And perhaps they advance quicker in the presence of other mentor kerbals already proficient in that role.  The other kerbal would only need to be on the same craft, not in same part.  Maybe some tasks would be reserved to experts, like piloting in atmosphere, docking, etc, but anyone could adjust attitude on orbit.  Also, comms range with any base, KSC, or craft, with an expert in the role would give them a temporary bump as the can be talked through many operations.  

Even tourists, in emergencies, should be able to advance and be talked through operations, with possibly lesser success.

Yes, I'm mostly winging this

Edited October 26, 2022 by darthgently

[Jarin]

10 hours ago, regex said:

I agree with you on the experience thing, I recall some forum users creating giant kerbal space buses to take a gaggle of them on an extended tour before using them, which is ... expedient, but the idea of it is kind of ridiculous.

Maybe a better way of handling that would be milestones related to their career. Scientists get experience by performing experiments, engineers get experience doing whatever the hell they do (what do they do?), pilots get experience from flight time.

As silly as it was, I kinda liked running my "Kerbodyne University" field trips:

Spoiler

Kerbodyne U, class of '03. (feat. Mike Kerman behind the flag)

 

More seriously, I like the classes for how they differentiate individual kerbals, but some kind of skill system could do the same.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Jarin

[Superfluous J]

11 hours ago, regex said:

engineers get experience doing whatever the hell they do (what do they do?)

You really HAVEN'T played in a while have you?

KAS is essentially in the game now, and you need Engineers to do it.

[jastrone]

i think there would be four types of kerbals. scientist, engineers, pilots and some sort of civilians. the civilians are the ones that would live in the colonies while the other are more for space exploration.  the civilians would be like a resourrce rather than individual kerbals so that you dont have to keep track of 40 kerbals in one ship. with this we solve multiple problems. 

it ads some dificoulty since you cant just launch any kerbal to space and do advanced tasks instead you need to plan who to bring and in colonies you probably need some building to make "specialists". this is especially true earlygame when you cant bring 50 kerbals.

you wouldnt need to bring so many specialists on a mission but you can bring many civilians so you dont need to keep track of every kerbal.

every specialist will have some importance since they are a limited resource. if they have xp then you have to choose if you really want to bring your high skill pilot to build a colony where you probably wont be able to launch from for a while but on the other hand the mission will be easier.

and just having 50 kerbals at all times gives you no personal connection too them.  in ksp 1 you probably had one favorite kerbals you would always use on missions due to the xp system. it favors using one kerbal many times and after a while you just use a few all the time. why make rescue mission when you can just easily get 50 kerbals that all can do everything.

[Vl3d]

We need a new medics class for life support related stuff.

[GoldForest]

15 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

We need a new medics class for life support related stuff.

Medics would fall under scientist. And life support would need both scientists and engineers really. 

[Rutabaga22]

13 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

We need a new medics class for life support related stuff.

I think life support shouldn't require you to bring a bunch of extra components to your mission.

[regex]

9 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

You really HAVEN'T played in a while have you?

KAS is essentially in the game now, and you need Engineers to do it.

Last I remember they were only good for oil rigs which means they were completely useless for me. Now I guess I'll have a reason to leave one in orbit so I can strut things up.

Now that I think about it the entire class system for kerbals is just ... bad.

Pilots give QOL bonuses they should have learned in basic astronaut training. Engineers can strut things up and give bonuses to mining equipment somehow. Scientists give a bonus from science. Am I remembering all that right? None of that is at all exciting or even really like, makes sense. Kerbals should be one thing: an astronaut, who has all this training and without some dumb SoI-based experience system. It's pretty insulting that a pilot kerbal has to go to another SoI to learn how to hold a different heading when there's a frickin' navball right in front of their face...

That's probably the one thing I really hate about this game, just how incompetent kerbals really are. Sure, have your explosions, make light of failure, that eases the pain, I get it, but at the end of the day they're downright insulting incompetent. <sigh>

[Scarecrow71]

What I'm most interested in regarding classes and leveling isn't so much whether or not you can multi-class, but rather if the types of classes expands.  Perhaps we get a communications officer, or maybe miners?

[Gargamel]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

What I'm most interested in regarding classes and leveling isn't so much whether or not you can multi-class, but rather if the types of classes expands.  Perhaps we get a communications officer, or maybe miners?

I wouldn’t mind, instead of more classes, but specialization in a class.   Ie engineers could specialize in mining or repair, giving them a bigger boost, or the ability to carry more.    Scientists could be field researchers or physicians, giving science or life support boosts.   Pilots could be plane pilots or lander pilots, giving fuel efficiency boosts.  (That last one needs some detail work obviously). 

[Wheehaw Kerman]

Perhaps keep the pilots, scientists, and engineers, and add “colonists” to operate colonies (mostly by just being in them, I’d think)?

[Zaffre]

I suspect the system will be different and I DEARLY hope it is. Having to launch a ship loaded with kerbals just to make flybys to farm XP is tiring, annoying, and nonsensical. Specialization and skills with flexibility over classes with wrought iron limits would be a step up too, but we'll just have to wait and see.

I do hope that the system will resemble an actual space program. That'd be a nice thing to have in a game called 'Kerbal Space Program.'

[Pthigrivi]

So! What I've gathered over the years is that most folks don't particularly like the way science works, don't particularly like the generative contract system, aren't really crazy about XP grind, but most folks do seem emotionally connected to this mostly non-functional class system. That's interesting... and weird? I think maybe because otherwise kerbals are so nondescript and interchangeable this is one of the few kinds of actual traits that has any impact on the way we play? Here's my real question:

Lots of people have said "I don't want this to become a tedious management sim", but if as a player you're tasked with individually managing the training and job assignments of dozens of Kerbals isn't that exactly what you've created? I'm not just talking about colonies. Forget colonies. Im talking about a dozen different vessels, mining rigs, science outposts, and resource freighters on half a dozen planets, each with a crew of 3 or 6 even 12 kerbals. You could very easily have 50-100 kerbals to manually click "You work in this science lab, you pilot this ship, you manage this greenhouse", etc. each time you dock or switch crews or depart a station or colony. I personally want kerbals to be important to the game, but is that really the best way to go about it? 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[Vl3d]

13 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I don't want this to become a tedious management sim

I want this to feel real in its complexity but simple in its abstractions. Eg. engineers take care of hardware, scientists take care of the science, medics take care of the crew, pilots fly the ship better and plan more efficient journeys, tourists just take a trip.

Colonists should not be a separate class, it is only a description of the place where they live and work.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Vl3d

[Pthigrivi]

10 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

I want this to feel real in its complexity but simple in its abstractions. Eg. engineers take care of hardware, scientists take care of the science, medics take care of the crew, pilots fly the ship better and plan more efficient journeys.

But in a detailed sense what does this mean? Do crew members get sick? How much clicking should you have to do to fix it? If when you left you forgot to put a medic on board what are the consequences? Are those consequences solvable if the vessel is 2 years into a 3 year transit to Jool? If your engineer gets sick and so your reactor shuts down and you don't have power so the vessel bricks is the mission just ruined? 

Like is this a place where we want to create more complexity? or less? Is any of this really about the core game elements of building and flying or is it just a lot of clicking and potential frustration?

Edited October 29, 2022 by Pthigrivi